SAlat
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peace naxus,
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
Perhaps instead of just finding/listing verses which contain the roots Ra-Kaf-Ayn (bow) or Siin-Jiim-Dal (prostrate), it may be more fruitful finding verses which prove that one or both clearly mean a physical movement, if thats what they mean.
Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, humility, humble yourself, lower the head, yield.
occurrences
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.634.htmSiin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, hear & obey, prostrate, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head (physical form used to salute/pay respect/magnify).
occurrences
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.318.htmThese references should help your study. Let us know what you find.
Wakas
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Salaam naxus,
Welcome to the forum. D
All I can tell you is, try not to stress over it too much. Believe it or not, most, if not all of us, had the SAME problem (the salat issue) when we decided to leave traditions and follow God alone. It is a difficult and long process. So take your time. The threads here prove it. Another piece of advice I could offer is (and I realise this is difficult), try not to justify what you already 'know' from tradition with the quran. Instead, start reading the quran with a fresh/new perspective. )
I hope you will join us in further discussions/debates throughout the different sections of the board.
Peace be with you.
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Peace be upon you,
Welcome, and as Zenje said, PATIENCE will be the key. We ALL said the same thing as you at first. The God raises by degree, but you have to be patient and DEFINATELY have to clear your mind of pre concieved ideas.
PEACE is the goal.
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Peace to bros n sis of free mind even though studying many
articles at free mind says that salah is not a ritual
prayer but i have some imbiguties or a difference of opnion
i will state down the following points
1st we should see wuts islam is it a religion who wasadvent by a person Mohamed did it just begun 1400 years ago
well answer for the above Quetion is no Islam does not
start with Mohamed it begun with Adam n it completed with
the last Prophet Mohamed there r prophets whos name r
mention in Quran but there r many Prophets whose names r
not mantioned but they were there they were sent to every
nation with the message Budha can be a Prophet Zohrastra
can be a Prophet Kirshna could be a Prophet etc by all this
i mean that Prophets were there every where if peoples can
utter the message of moses n jesus than other peoples can
also utter the mesaage of Budha i,m just giving an example
.so as we know conclude that islam begun with Adam n every
nation on earth has their own share of Messangers although
many mesages of the mesangers r utter the finale mesage is
unutterable because God him self proclaim That God will
protect it so its unchangeable n its their to show the
guidenss to all the generations till the doom day
historicaly we always see many comman things between
different religions in majority of the religions there is
one God who has a partner in the form of humans e.g like in
budhaism Budha n God in Hinduism God with many chracters
like Ram Krishna etc in like the oid religion of Arabs
having gods like lat etc by giving these example i just
wana explain u few thing whicih is very comman between
different religion like bowing Prostration any religion u
take u follow these 2 thing in the prayer of that religion
its very comman there in all the religions its a hard fact
u can ask a Hindu how do u bow he will not bow mentally he
will bow physically the same thing will happen if u ask him
about prostration he will prostrate physically not mentaly
Hinduism was just an example but u could ask any person u
want of any religion he will do the same thing majority of
people will bow n prostrate physically insteads of manatly
or spirtually this is a hard fact now all of us know salat
was there even before Mohamed n even before Quran all by
this i mean that Bowing n prostration r not some thing
invented by humans but they were teach to them by God
through Prophats n Messangers thats why they r always
comman between peoples of different races n different
religions n thats why these two position r mantions alot of
time in Quran e.g
1
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) andgive the obligatory charity (Zakat), and bow down with
those who bow down.
2
"O Mary, you shall submit to your Lord, andprostrate and bow down with those who bow down."
3
They are the repenters, the worshipers, thepraisers, the meditators, the bowing and prostrating, the
advocators of righteousness and forbidders of evil, and the
keepers of GOD's laws. Give good news to such believers.
4
. We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "Youshall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My
shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and
those who bow and prostrate.
5
. O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate,worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may
succeed
standing is another thing whicih is mantion in Quran e.gThe angels called him when he was praying in the
sanctuary "GOD gives you good news of John; a believer in
the word of GOD, honorable, moral, and a righteous
prophet."
2
Is it not better to be one of those who meditate inthe night, prostrating and staying up, being aware of the
Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of their Lord? Say, "Are
those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those
who possess intelligence will take heed
now u should ask u,r self why does God just say it so if God can mantion the Aboulation well the answer for that whicih in my opinion is that God has explain the least form of Prayer to us by again n again mantioning the three essential components standing ,bowing and prostration now if u will ask how many units u wanna perform well in my opnion wut ever u waanna do this is between the God n the poerson who is performing the salat if he wanna bow down say 80 times well this is between God n that person n we should not forget salat is a part of islam not that islam is a part of salat thank u for reading peace
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Peace Naxus, All,
just wanted to say that in a way I agree with all of you. Nothing is wrong with ritual salat, reading or recitation of quran, be it at specified times or any other time. So anyone is free to do as he wishes. I also understand that many of you don't do traditionnal salat - anyway one doesn't exclude the other. I think freedom is the key - laa ikraha fideen, and the only judge is allah.
Elke
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Peace all,
reading or recitation of quran, be it at specified times or any other time. So anyone is free to do as he wishes.
I completly agree with you
At dawn, dusk, between the dawn and the dusk or during the night, in other word we can study the quran day and night. As you stated nothing is wrong with these schedules.
We are asked to study the quran and to establish the salat; to follow close the orders of the God and establish His system 24/24H until the death
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The God orders justice and goodness and that you shall help your relatives, and He deters from evil, vice, and transgression. He warns you that you may remember.
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O you who believe, do not follow the footsteps of the devil. And whosoever follows the footsteps of the devil should know that he advocates immorality and evil. And had in not been for God?s favour upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been purified, but God purifies whom He wishes, and God is Hearer, Knower.
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Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and establish the salat; The salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
Peace
Marie -
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Here Is The Prayer
011 . 087
They said O Shu'aib! does your prayer enjoin you that we should forsake what our fathers worshipped or that we should not do what we please with regard to our property? Forsooth you are the forbearing, the right-directing one.Peace
drfazl -
Here Is Sujud Ritual
The Ritual Of Sujud Is Denounced Here
067.022
YUSUFALI Is then one who walks headlong, with his face grovelling, better guided,- or one who walks evenly on a Straight Way?
PICKTHAL Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a straight road?
SHAKIR What! is he who goes prone upon his face better guided or he who walks upright upon a straight path?Peace
drfazl -
Peace be upon you Doc,
Excellent observation! I hadn't noticed that verse. The proof is overwhelming against the traditional salaat method.
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Salam Drfazl,
I think that you have to reconcile your observation with the numerous mentions in the Qur'an of people as well as other beings performing Sujood whenever GOD's name is mentioned. Whenever Sujood is mentioned in the Qur'an in Arabic the Word Sujood was used and not another word.
As for the passage that you use, the arabic word that was used in the Qur'anc passage is "Munkabbon ala wajhehe" which actually means thrown down on his face. Therefore it denotes someone forced down to the ground.
The main difference in my eyes is that Sujood is voluntary (whenever mentioned in the Qur'an people and other beings did it voluntarily) while in that passage it was involuntary and it was not done as part of paying tribute to GOD
And Allah knows best
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein, All
As for the passage that you use, the arabic word that was used in the Qur'anc passage is "Munkabbon ala wajhehe" which actually means thrown down on his face. Therefore it denotes someone forced down to the ground.
It is walking WHILE the head is facing down..
"Afaman Yamshee Mukibbann 3ala Wajhehe Ahdaa, Ammann Yamshee Sawiyann 3ala Ssiradtinn Mustaqeemm..."It is not that someone is forced to the ground, or thrown down on his face!
Taj
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
Remain patient and continue to reflect on this. It is not an easy transition. Do not just defend what you have been taught, search for the PROOF.
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Salaam Hussein,
Thanks Brother Taj for correcting me. I ask GOd's and y'all's forgiveness for my error. I think that my point still stands, that this is not Sujood as we understand it, therefore the Aya does not denounce Sujood.
Your point, Hussein, still stands, definitely!
Ayah has nothing to do with Sujood at all. Too bad that drfazl has brought it to support his view!Taj
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Peace be upon you,
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...
How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
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Salaam Kyle,
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...
How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.
Taj
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Peace be upon you Taj,
Quote
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.
What do you mean by first step? The verse says enter the gate prostrating, that means, you are prostrating as you enter the gate. It did not say prostrate then enter the gate, it said enter the gate prostrating.
Lets add another verse into the mix;
(3215) Only those have faith in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration...
Do you fall down on the ground everytime you hear the God's signs recited to you? If so, I just gave a verse above, you should have prostrated, in fact, you probably prostrate at every post on this forum.
OR, perhaps when the signs of the God are recited to those who have faith, they "hear and obey(prosdtrate).
Which one makes more sense?
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Salam Drfazl,I think that you have to reconcile your observation with the numerous mentions in the Qur'an of people as well as other beings performing Sujood whenever GOD's name is mentioned. Whenever Sujood is mentioned in the Qur'an in Arabic the Word Sujood was used and not another word.
Q1) What is Sujud ? Define first please.
Keep the following ayat in mind first if you really are a mumin at heart and fear Him if you have any reason at all to say or force the ' sujud - acting ' on any one.008.002
For, Mumins are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put their trust in their Lord;
Q2) Does Allah only see the Fear in your heart; or your Physical ' Acting ' ? Without Fear for HIM?
Before answering to this question read this
004.142
The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
Q3) How do you know if the WORD SUJUD is not Mutashabihat ? Which if one of those belonging to mutashabihat - ONLY ALLAH KNOWS THE MEANING. why do you go after dictionaries equating them to Allah's Wisdom ?
055001,2,3 & 4
Rahman Created man; He taught Quran; He Created Man; He taught Him its Bayan ( explanation of Quran/ guidance )003007
But none knows its interpretation except Allah,
Q4)Is it Allah that Who teaches comprehension and interpretation of His Signs ? Or, your dictionaries having a few words ( every word having as meanings to it a further confusion of mixture of words ) that lead you to straight way ? In any case, do dictionaries comprehend and interpret for you ?
See what you have been doing here! Thesuarus is all that you consider as your discussion material in the name of debate! Pure conjecture!
Q5) Is Quran for educated and sophisticated proud people or only to those who fear Allah? Can your language, dictionary, knowledge on grammar and literature Guide you?
Very Sad!
Read This
007.178
Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.007.158
Say "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow HIM/him that ye may be guided."
Peace all
drfazl -
Salam Drfazl,
I thank you for the very exhaustive and very thought provoking questions that you have asked.
1- I guess that I cannot defince Sujood because the dictionaries that I will site, you will not believe. However, I did research and this is what I found. In the Qur'an, there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer. Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground
3.
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheenamaAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamaobaynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlanmina Allahi waridwanan seemahum feewujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhumfee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeelikazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu faistaghlathafaistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAaliyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahuallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiminhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.
Another example
6.
Qul aminoo bihi aw latu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi ithayutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan
Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,I think that it is self explanatory here.
2-I do agree that worshipping GOD is mostly in the heart.
3- I agree that GOD teaches us the Qur'an. How can you be so sure that the way you read it is the correct way yourself? If you are not then you have to be careful, just as you ask me to be careful inusing the objective methods that I have. We both, have to be careful reading in the Qur'an what GOD had not written. That can be a transgression.May GOD show us all the right path.
Hussein
