SAlat

Elke

Peace Naxus, All,

just wanted to say that in a way I agree with all of you. Nothing is wrong with ritual salat, reading or recitation of quran, be it at specified times or any other time. So anyone is free to do as he wishes. I also understand that many of you don't do traditionnal salat - anyway one doesn't exclude the other. I think freedom is the key - laa ikraha fideen, and the only judge is allah.

Elke

marie

Peace all,

reading or recitation of quran, be it at specified times or any other time. So anyone is free to do as he wishes.

I completly agree with you

At dawn, dusk, between the dawn and the dusk or during the night, in other word we can study the quran day and night. As you stated nothing is wrong with these schedules.

We are asked to study the quran and to establish the salat; to follow close the orders of the God and establish His system 24/24H until the death

The God orders justice and goodness and that you shall help your relatives, and He deters from evil, vice, and transgression. He warns you that you may remember.
O you who believe, do not follow the footsteps of the devil. And whosoever follows the footsteps of the devil should know that he advocates immorality and evil. And had in not been for God?s favour upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been purified, but God purifies whom He wishes, and God is Hearer, Knower.
Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and establish the salat; The salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

Peace
Marie

drfazl

Here Is The Prayer

011 . 087
They said O Shu'aib! does your prayer enjoin you that we should forsake what our fathers worshipped or that we should not do what we please with regard to our property? Forsooth you are the forbearing, the right-directing one.

Peace
drfazl

drfazl

Here Is Sujud Ritual

The Ritual Of Sujud Is Denounced Here

067.022
YUSUFALI Is then one who walks headlong, with his face grovelling, better guided,- or one who walks evenly on a Straight Way?
PICKTHAL Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a straight road?
SHAKIR What! is he who goes prone upon his face better guided or he who walks upright upon a straight path?

Peace
drfazl

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Doc,

Excellent observation! I hadn't noticed that verse. The proof is overwhelming against the traditional salaat method.

naxus

Peace to bros n sis of free mind i think 4 the time being drfazal got some strong point i will make some more research n may guide us on the right path peace

hlatif

Salam Drfazl,

I think that you have to reconcile your observation with the numerous mentions in the Qur'an of people as well as other beings performing Sujood whenever GOD's name is mentioned. Whenever Sujood is mentioned in the Qur'an in Arabic the Word Sujood was used and not another word.

As for the passage that you use, the arabic word that was used in the Qur'anc passage is "Munkabbon ala wajhehe" which actually means thrown down on his face. Therefore it denotes someone forced down to the ground.

The main difference in my eyes is that Sujood is voluntary (whenever mentioned in the Qur'an people and other beings did it voluntarily) while in that passage it was involuntary and it was not done as part of paying tribute to GOD

And Allah knows best

Hussein

TAJ

Salaam Hussein, All

As for the passage that you use, the arabic word that was used in the Qur'anc passage is "Munkabbon ala wajhehe" which actually means thrown down on his face. Therefore it denotes someone forced down to the ground.

It is walking WHILE the head is facing down..
"Afaman Yamshee Mukibbann 3ala Wajhehe Ahdaa, Ammann Yamshee Sawiyann 3ala Ssiradtinn Mustaqeemm..."

It is not that someone is forced to the ground, or thrown down on his face!

Taj

hlatif

Thanks Brother Taj for correcting me. I ask GOd's and y'all's forgiveness for my error. I think that my point still stands, that this is not Sujood as we understand it, therefore the Aya does not denounce Sujood.

Hussein

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Hussein,

Remain patient and continue to reflect on this. It is not an easy transition. Do not just defend what you have been taught, search for the PROOF.

TAJ

Salaam Hussein,

Thanks Brother Taj for correcting me. I ask GOd's and y'all's forgiveness for my error. I think that my point still stands, that this is not Sujood as we understand it, therefore the Aya does not denounce Sujood.
Your point, Hussein, still stands, definitely!
Ayah has nothing to do with Sujood at all. Too bad that drfazl has brought it to support his view!

Taj

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...

How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).

TAJ

Salaam Kyle,

(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...

How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).

Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.

Taj

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Taj,

Quote
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...

How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).

Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.

What do you mean by first step? The verse says enter the gate prostrating, that means, you are prostrating as you enter the gate. It did not say prostrate then enter the gate, it said enter the gate prostrating.

Lets add another verse into the mix;

(3215) Only those have faith in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration...

Do you fall down on the ground everytime you hear the God's signs recited to you? If so, I just gave a verse above, you should have prostrated, in fact, you probably prostrate at every post on this forum.

OR, perhaps when the signs of the God are recited to those who have faith, they "hear and obey(prosdtrate).

Which one makes more sense?

drfazl

Salam Drfazl,I think that you have to reconcile your observation with the numerous mentions in the Qur'an of people as well as other beings performing Sujood whenever GOD's name is mentioned. Whenever Sujood is mentioned in the Qur'an in Arabic the Word Sujood was used and not another word.

Q1) What is Sujud ? Define first please.
Keep the following ayat in mind first if you really are a mumin at heart and fear Him if you have any reason at all to say or force the ' sujud - acting ' on any one.

008.002
For, Mumins are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put their trust in their Lord;

Q2) Does Allah only see the Fear in your heart; or your Physical ' Acting ' ? Without Fear for HIM?

Before answering to this question read this
004.142
The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;

Q3) How do you know if the WORD SUJUD is not Mutashabihat ? Which if one of those belonging to mutashabihat - ONLY ALLAH KNOWS THE MEANING. why do you go after dictionaries equating them to Allah's Wisdom ?

055001,2,3 & 4
Rahman Created man; He taught Quran; He Created Man; He taught Him its Bayan ( explanation of Quran/ guidance )

003007
But none knows its interpretation except Allah,

Q4)Is it Allah that Who teaches comprehension and interpretation of His Signs ? Or, your dictionaries having a few words ( every word having as meanings to it a further confusion of mixture of words ) that lead you to straight way ? In any case, do dictionaries comprehend and interpret for you ?

See what you have been doing here! Thesuarus is all that you consider as your discussion material in the name of debate! Pure conjecture!

Q5) Is Quran for educated and sophisticated proud people or only to those who fear Allah? Can your language, dictionary, knowledge on grammar and literature Guide you?

Very Sad!

Read This
007.178
Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

007.158
Say "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow HIM/him that ye may be guided."

Peace all
drfazl

hlatif

Salam Drfazl,

I thank you for the very exhaustive and very thought provoking questions that you have asked.

1- I guess that I cannot defince Sujood because the dictionaries that I will site, you will not believe. However, I did research and this is what I found. In the Qur'an, there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer. Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground
3.
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheenamaAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamaobaynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlanmina Allahi waridwanan seemahum feewujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhumfee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeelikazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu faistaghlathafaistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAaliyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahuallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiminhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.

Another example
6.
Qul aminoo bihi aw latu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi ithayutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan
Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,

I think that it is self explanatory here.

2-I do agree that worshipping GOD is mostly in the heart.
3- I agree that GOD teaches us the Qur'an. How can you be so sure that the way you read it is the correct way yourself? If you are not then you have to be careful, just as you ask me to be careful inusing the objective methods that I have. We both, have to be careful reading in the Qur'an what GOD had not written. That can be a transgression.

May GOD show us all the right path.

Hussein

marie

Peace Hussein,