SAlat
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Salaam Hussein, All
As for the passage that you use, the arabic word that was used in the Qur'anc passage is "Munkabbon ala wajhehe" which actually means thrown down on his face. Therefore it denotes someone forced down to the ground.
It is walking WHILE the head is facing down..
"Afaman Yamshee Mukibbann 3ala Wajhehe Ahdaa, Ammann Yamshee Sawiyann 3ala Ssiradtinn Mustaqeemm..."It is not that someone is forced to the ground, or thrown down on his face!
Taj
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
Remain patient and continue to reflect on this. It is not an easy transition. Do not just defend what you have been taught, search for the PROOF.
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Salaam Hussein,
Thanks Brother Taj for correcting me. I ask GOd's and y'all's forgiveness for my error. I think that my point still stands, that this is not Sujood as we understand it, therefore the Aya does not denounce Sujood.
Your point, Hussein, still stands, definitely!
Ayah has nothing to do with Sujood at all. Too bad that drfazl has brought it to support his view!Taj
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Peace be upon you,
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...
How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
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Salaam Kyle,
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...
How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.
Taj
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Peace be upon you Taj,
Quote
(7161) ...and enter the gate/door/entrance prostrating(sujjadan)...How does one enter a gate/door while prostrating PHYSICALLY? Won't that scratch the face and make the system difficult? Instead, one can enter the gate/door in a state of hearing and obeying(sujjadan).
Your first step into the threshold would be prostrating. Once you are in then you can rise up. Why do you take it as crawling? To enter a place takes only one step.
What do you mean by first step? The verse says enter the gate prostrating, that means, you are prostrating as you enter the gate. It did not say prostrate then enter the gate, it said enter the gate prostrating.
Lets add another verse into the mix;
(3215) Only those have faith in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration...
Do you fall down on the ground everytime you hear the God's signs recited to you? If so, I just gave a verse above, you should have prostrated, in fact, you probably prostrate at every post on this forum.
OR, perhaps when the signs of the God are recited to those who have faith, they "hear and obey(prosdtrate).
Which one makes more sense?
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Salam Drfazl,I think that you have to reconcile your observation with the numerous mentions in the Qur'an of people as well as other beings performing Sujood whenever GOD's name is mentioned. Whenever Sujood is mentioned in the Qur'an in Arabic the Word Sujood was used and not another word.
Q1) What is Sujud ? Define first please.
Keep the following ayat in mind first if you really are a mumin at heart and fear Him if you have any reason at all to say or force the ' sujud - acting ' on any one.008.002
For, Mumins are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put their trust in their Lord;
Q2) Does Allah only see the Fear in your heart; or your Physical ' Acting ' ? Without Fear for HIM?
Before answering to this question read this
004.142
The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
Q3) How do you know if the WORD SUJUD is not Mutashabihat ? Which if one of those belonging to mutashabihat - ONLY ALLAH KNOWS THE MEANING. why do you go after dictionaries equating them to Allah's Wisdom ?
055001,2,3 & 4
Rahman Created man; He taught Quran; He Created Man; He taught Him its Bayan ( explanation of Quran/ guidance )003007
But none knows its interpretation except Allah,
Q4)Is it Allah that Who teaches comprehension and interpretation of His Signs ? Or, your dictionaries having a few words ( every word having as meanings to it a further confusion of mixture of words ) that lead you to straight way ? In any case, do dictionaries comprehend and interpret for you ?
See what you have been doing here! Thesuarus is all that you consider as your discussion material in the name of debate! Pure conjecture!
Q5) Is Quran for educated and sophisticated proud people or only to those who fear Allah? Can your language, dictionary, knowledge on grammar and literature Guide you?
Very Sad!
Read This
007.178
Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.007.158
Say "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow HIM/him that ye may be guided."
Peace all
drfazl -
Salam Drfazl,
I thank you for the very exhaustive and very thought provoking questions that you have asked.
1- I guess that I cannot defince Sujood because the dictionaries that I will site, you will not believe. However, I did research and this is what I found. In the Qur'an, there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer. Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground
3.
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheenamaAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamaobaynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlanmina Allahi waridwanan seemahum feewujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhumfee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeelikazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu faistaghlathafaistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAaliyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahuallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiminhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.
Another example
6.
Qul aminoo bihi aw latu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi ithayutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan
Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,I think that it is self explanatory here.
2-I do agree that worshipping GOD is mostly in the heart.
3- I agree that GOD teaches us the Qur'an. How can you be so sure that the way you read it is the correct way yourself? If you are not then you have to be careful, just as you ask me to be careful inusing the objective methods that I have. We both, have to be careful reading in the Qur'an what GOD had not written. That can be a transgression.May GOD show us all the right path.
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
I strongly suggest you re-check your research
there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer
Where is prayer mentioned in 234, 711, 1530, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3873, 3113, 712, 7206, 1315, 1533, 1649, 1761, 2218, 2560, 2724, 2725...
I will stop the list here, as I am not even half-way through the SJD occurrences and I feel I have made my point.
Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground... 4829... 17107
Please see the following thread on 4829
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2584If SJD is clearly a physical prostration, why does al quran add the additional words "yakhirroona"~"they fall" "lil-athqani"~"down to the" in 17107? Why not just say "they SJD"?
Wakas
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Salam Wakas and thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer. I did make a mistake. However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer
1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?
I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.
Salam
Hussein
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Peace to bros n sis of free minds
i read the article of layth on fasting in free mind n i find it quite justified n 4 that this time i have fast for 10 days because logic of layth at that article make sense but i,m sorrey to say that article of salat doesn,t make any sense to me n i would say i,m very confused about salat i know patience is key n i Allah hope will clearfy 4 me the salaat too as Allah has clearfy me alot of other things but i should say one thing when we r here 4 the God in this discussion we r not here to fight with some other religion or some other sect we r just here for the One God so all of us should keep this in mind God has guide so far n God will guide us till the end peace
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Salam Drfazl,
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
;Muhammad is ..
Where he is now... ?
If you go by the objective methods we are in the dark and we will falsify muhammad and Quran. What is Muhammad, then ?
Is it " he " or it is 'he' from HIM ?Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, compassionate amongst each other.
Brother hlatif, do you think we are with muhammad now ? Aren't you eager to be with him now ? That which is possible only subjectively and not objectively ? Should we not lead life as Allah says that we be believer in the Unseen and lead a life accordingly so that we be Pious ?
The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.
Objective understanding takes your meaning to suit your 'seeing is believing' attitude. Whereas the part of the ayat says on their faces shall be the Mark of the Light of Allah, you get the meaning to the forehead part of the face where we see the dark mark, the dark roasted mark of the hell fire! I believe you know the ayats where allah describes the TWO faces on The Day the Bright Face and the Dark Face.
Peace hlatif
drfazl -
Salam Drfazl,
I am going to address the question related to the mark on the forehead. I think that your explanantion is fine and I think that my explanation is fine as well and I think that they are not mutually exclusive.
As for your first point, Muhammad is not with us. The Arabic version of the Qur'an translates more properly like this " Muhammad, messenger of the prophet" The verb to be is rarely used in Arabic. Muhammad's message "the Qur'an" is with us.
I don't take "seeing is believing" attitude brother. I believe in the unseen. I believe in the GOD and I don't see him, I believe in the prophets, the angels. I believe in everything that GOD says exists that I don't see. I also believe in lots of unseens that GOD did not will for me to see.
One thing however, that is important to me is the fact that the unseen should not contradict the word of GOD. The reason that I disagreed with your was because you cited a single Ayah that you interpreted as Sujood when the word Sujood was not even mentioned in it, and then you made a swiping conclusion against Sujood. To me, you contradicted so many other Ayah's in the Qur'an that Talk about Sujood to GOD as something positive.
I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I thank you for the thought provoking exchanges.
Hussein
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Sujud Is Allegorical Too
Salam Drfazl, I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I will wait for your interpretation on sujood the allegorical part of it! How do you perform the allegorical part of sujood in salat ? In that case, I agree with you salat also becomes allegorical sometimes. How is allegorical salat done ? Interesting twin part of this sujud and salat may break the ritual physical nature of prayer.
peace hlatif
drfazl -
It could be that Allegorical is not the right word since English is my second langauge. What I meant is
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer.
Clearly you did not check all the ayatin/signs I referenced, as they do not all refer to adam.
However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer
1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.There has been quite a lot of discussion on these terms. I suggest you read them.
As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?
I believe it can mean physical too, but to me, its clear mental prostration is at its core. Al Quran has a recurring theme of "inner outranks the outer" throughout.
I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.
Do you fall down to the ground in prostration everytime you hear al quran being recited to you?
If not, why not?
Wakas
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Believing with Reasoning
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
HusseinShall we start with the definition of each? So that we agree on some baseline over which we can discuss? I think without defining ourselves on any word, or a subject it is futile to proceed.
My definitions of words
Submission Believing every ayat and its words that Allah says With ReasoningWith this as the first, we start!
May Al Aalim!
drfazl -
My definition of submission believing in what GOD says and obeying GOD's comands that include the physical and non physical prayers, in addition to all the other comands. I am not sure what you mean by reasoning, if I don't see the reasoning in what GOD says then I will pray on it till GOD reveal to me the way and then I realize my own limitations.
Brother Wakas, no I have not fallen to the ground performing Sujood but I have seen others do. I do not have access to a dictionary but I would like someone to investigate the exact meaning of the word "Kharr" any way. I think that you may be able to enlighten me here.
Thank you both for your patience with me.
Hussein
