SAlat
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Salam Drfazl,
I thank you for the very exhaustive and very thought provoking questions that you have asked.
1- I guess that I cannot defince Sujood because the dictionaries that I will site, you will not believe. However, I did research and this is what I found. In the Qur'an, there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer. Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground
3.
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheenamaAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamaobaynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlanmina Allahi waridwanan seemahum feewujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhumfee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeelikazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu faistaghlathafaistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAaliyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahuallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiminhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.
Another example
6.
Qul aminoo bihi aw latu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi ithayutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan
Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,I think that it is self explanatory here.
2-I do agree that worshipping GOD is mostly in the heart.
3- I agree that GOD teaches us the Qur'an. How can you be so sure that the way you read it is the correct way yourself? If you are not then you have to be careful, just as you ask me to be careful inusing the objective methods that I have. We both, have to be careful reading in the Qur'an what GOD had not written. That can be a transgression.May GOD show us all the right path.
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
I strongly suggest you re-check your research
there were 81 mentions of the root word SJD and ALL were related to prayer
Where is prayer mentioned in 234, 711, 1530, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3873, 3113, 712, 7206, 1315, 1533, 1649, 1761, 2218, 2560, 2724, 2725...
I will stop the list here, as I am not even half-way through the SJD occurrences and I feel I have made my point.
Two of them show that there is a putting of the head on the ground... 4829... 17107
Please see the following thread on 4829
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2584If SJD is clearly a physical prostration, why does al quran add the additional words "yakhirroona"~"they fall" "lil-athqani"~"down to the" in 17107? Why not just say "they SJD"?
Wakas
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Salam Wakas and thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer. I did make a mistake. However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer
1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?
I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.
Salam
Hussein
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Peace to bros n sis of free minds
i read the article of layth on fasting in free mind n i find it quite justified n 4 that this time i have fast for 10 days because logic of layth at that article make sense but i,m sorrey to say that article of salat doesn,t make any sense to me n i would say i,m very confused about salat i know patience is key n i Allah hope will clearfy 4 me the salaat too as Allah has clearfy me alot of other things but i should say one thing when we r here 4 the God in this discussion we r not here to fight with some other religion or some other sect we r just here for the One God so all of us should keep this in mind God has guide so far n God will guide us till the end peace
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Salam Drfazl,
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
;Muhammad is ..
Where he is now... ?
If you go by the objective methods we are in the dark and we will falsify muhammad and Quran. What is Muhammad, then ?
Is it " he " or it is 'he' from HIM ?Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, compassionate amongst each other.
Brother hlatif, do you think we are with muhammad now ? Aren't you eager to be with him now ? That which is possible only subjectively and not objectively ? Should we not lead life as Allah says that we be believer in the Unseen and lead a life accordingly so that we be Pious ?
The marks on the faces have been seen on the Foreheads of many muslims in the muslim world.
Objective understanding takes your meaning to suit your 'seeing is believing' attitude. Whereas the part of the ayat says on their faces shall be the Mark of the Light of Allah, you get the meaning to the forehead part of the face where we see the dark mark, the dark roasted mark of the hell fire! I believe you know the ayats where allah describes the TWO faces on The Day the Bright Face and the Dark Face.
Peace hlatif
drfazl -
Salam Drfazl,
I am going to address the question related to the mark on the forehead. I think that your explanantion is fine and I think that my explanation is fine as well and I think that they are not mutually exclusive.
As for your first point, Muhammad is not with us. The Arabic version of the Qur'an translates more properly like this " Muhammad, messenger of the prophet" The verb to be is rarely used in Arabic. Muhammad's message "the Qur'an" is with us.
I don't take "seeing is believing" attitude brother. I believe in the unseen. I believe in the GOD and I don't see him, I believe in the prophets, the angels. I believe in everything that GOD says exists that I don't see. I also believe in lots of unseens that GOD did not will for me to see.
One thing however, that is important to me is the fact that the unseen should not contradict the word of GOD. The reason that I disagreed with your was because you cited a single Ayah that you interpreted as Sujood when the word Sujood was not even mentioned in it, and then you made a swiping conclusion against Sujood. To me, you contradicted so many other Ayah's in the Qur'an that Talk about Sujood to GOD as something positive.
I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I thank you for the thought provoking exchanges.
Hussein
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Sujud Is Allegorical Too
Salam Drfazl, I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I will wait for your interpretation on sujood the allegorical part of it! How do you perform the allegorical part of sujood in salat ? In that case, I agree with you salat also becomes allegorical sometimes. How is allegorical salat done ? Interesting twin part of this sujud and salat may break the ritual physical nature of prayer.
peace hlatif
drfazl -
It could be that Allegorical is not the right word since English is my second langauge. What I meant is
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer.
Clearly you did not check all the ayatin/signs I referenced, as they do not all refer to adam.
However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer
1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.There has been quite a lot of discussion on these terms. I suggest you read them.
As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?
I believe it can mean physical too, but to me, its clear mental prostration is at its core. Al Quran has a recurring theme of "inner outranks the outer" throughout.
I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.
Do you fall down to the ground in prostration everytime you hear al quran being recited to you?
If not, why not?
Wakas
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Believing with Reasoning
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
HusseinShall we start with the definition of each? So that we agree on some baseline over which we can discuss? I think without defining ourselves on any word, or a subject it is futile to proceed.
My definitions of words
Submission Believing every ayat and its words that Allah says With ReasoningWith this as the first, we start!
May Al Aalim!
drfazl -
My definition of submission believing in what GOD says and obeying GOD's comands that include the physical and non physical prayers, in addition to all the other comands. I am not sure what you mean by reasoning, if I don't see the reasoning in what GOD says then I will pray on it till GOD reveal to me the way and then I realize my own limitations.
Brother Wakas, no I have not fallen to the ground performing Sujood but I have seen others do. I do not have access to a dictionary but I would like someone to investigate the exact meaning of the word "Kharr" any way. I think that you may be able to enlighten me here.
Thank you both for your patience with me.
Hussein
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Peace to bros n sis of free mind even though i have post an article in a different class but i think right place for it is here in this room plz kindly read it and bring u,r opnion n expalntion on the versus writing below in the article
Peace to bros n sis of free minds as i do some search on
the subject of salat i found some verses regarding the 5
prayers n will put them forwerd to u guys n will also hope
to hear u,r comment about them my research is as follows
Fajre Prayer
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out
your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and
praise your Lord when you get up.
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn asthe stars fade away.
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at
night, and when you rise in the morning.
O you who believe, permission must be requested by
your servants and the children who have not attained
puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in
three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you
change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer.
These are three private times for you. At other times, it
is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another.
GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is
Omniscient, Most Wise.
Zuhr Salat
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when
the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it
moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the
recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at
dawn is witnessed.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the
earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
Asar Salat
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers,
especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally
to GOD.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the
earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
MAGHRAB Salat
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
ISHA Salat
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as
the stars fade away.
And commemorate the name of your Lord day and
night.
During the night, fall prostrate before Him, andglorify Him many a long night.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at
night, and when you rise in the morning.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and theearth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
thank u for reading the article peace
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Salam brothers,
I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following
1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.
Salams
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following
1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.
You might want to check the complete wording of 17107. It is very dangerous to just check one word in isolation without looking at context. In the context of "yakhirroon lilathkan sujjadan", do you physically fall to your chin. Remember "thaqn" means chin NOT forehead and if you take it physically then you must fall to the chin and NOT the forehead.
Also, is a person who physically prostrates but disobeys The God REALLY doing "sujud"? Is the primary meaning allegorical or physical?
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Brother Ayman salam,
Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this
They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).
I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.
Salam
Hussein
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
What physical prostration should we do? Should it be PHYSICALLY bowing our chins in the dirt, or is it physically opening a book and physcially moving our eyes over the signs of the God? One will ead us to rememberance of the God, one is just a memorized ritual that once you do enough times, it loses meaning because now your thoughts are drifting.
Let me bring this home, the human body is made of the earth(Humus+man= human), does the earth have to do physical movements by bending in a 90 degree angle? So why would the human body? The human body ALREADY prostrates becaue it growsm sweats, the heart beats, the hair grows, etc. THAT is the prostration of the human body, KNOW we must prostrate the MIND. We must hear and obey.
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Peace brother Hussein,
Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this
They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).
If as you said The God wanted to describe the "really low" part, He could have easily said "till the forehead/"nasiya(t)"". In the traditional "sujud" that would be the logical thing to do. Saying "till something" when in fact it is "till something else" is illogical. On the other hand, "till the chin" means that the chin is the lowest part and not the forehead. Interestingly, it is impossible to put your chin and forehead on the ground and the same time.
I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.
It is OK if you take "sujud" to be physical and in the heart. The God is telling you to do "sujud" till the chin. Are you going to hear and obey The God and do sujud till the chin or are you going to hear "to the chin" and obey what the majority is doing?
This is the real test of the heart brother.
Interestingly, in the context of preventing from the real "salat", chapter 96 talks about the errant and lying forehead. What is the forehead doing that is a lie and in error?
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Salam brothers,
As for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"
When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.
Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.As for the chapter 96, I read it differently from you
Araayta allathee yanha
Seest thou one who forbids-
10.
AAabdan itha salla
A votary when he (turns) to pray?
So someone is preventing someone from praying. and then it goes like this after a few more versesKalla la-in lam yantahi lanasfaAAanbialnnasiyati
Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-
16.
Nasiyatin kathibatin khati-atin
A lying, sinful forelock!So, someone preventing someone from prayer and he is dragged by his forehead. (This is very interesting because the forehead does the Sujood. You understand that the false Sujood led this person that way. I understand that the person that refused and prevented others from prayer and therefore will receive his due on the forehead)
The Sura ends this way
Kalla la tutiAAhu waosjudwaiqtarib
Day, heed him not But prostrate in adoration, and bring thyself the closer (to Allah)!So GOD says Don't listen and Prostrate
We can argue this back and forth so many times. I am certain that you have your points of discussion and that is great. May peace be with you
Hussein
