SAlat

[Wakas]

peace Hussein,

thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer.

Clearly you did not check all the ayatin/signs I referenced, as they do not all refer to adam.

However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer

1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.

There has been quite a lot of discussion on these terms. I suggest you read them.

As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?

I believe it can mean physical too, but to me, its clear mental prostration is at its core. Al Quran has a recurring theme of "inner outranks the outer" throughout.

I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.

Do you fall down to the ground in prostration everytime you hear al quran being recited to you?

If not, why not?

Wakas

[drfazl]

Believing with Reasoning

Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
Hussein

Shall we start with the definition of each? So that we agree on some baseline over which we can discuss? I think without defining ourselves on any word, or a subject it is futile to proceed.

My definitions of words
Submission Believing every ayat and its words that Allah says With Reasoning

With this as the first, we start!

May Al Aalim!
drfazl

[hlatif]

My definition of submission believing in what GOD says and obeying GOD's comands that include the physical and non physical prayers, in addition to all the other comands. I am not sure what you mean by reasoning, if I don't see the reasoning in what GOD says then I will pray on it till GOD reveal to me the way and then I realize my own limitations.

Brother Wakas, no I have not fallen to the ground performing Sujood but I have seen others do. I do not have access to a dictionary but I would like someone to investigate the exact meaning of the word "Kharr" any way. I think that you may be able to enlighten me here.

Thank you both for your patience with me.

Hussein

[naxus]

Peace to bros n sis of free mind even though i have post an article in a different class but i think right place for it is here in this room plz kindly read it and bring u,r opnion n expalntion on the versus writing below in the article

Peace to bros n sis of free minds as i do some search on

the subject of salat i found some verses regarding the 5

prayers n will put them forwerd to u guys n will also hope

to hear u,r comment about them my research is as follows

Fajre Prayer

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise

and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as

well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out

your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and

praise your Lord when you get up.
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as

the stars fade away.

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at

both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous

works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those

who would take heed.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before

sunrise, and before sunset.

Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at

night, and when you rise in the morning.

O you who believe, permission must be requested by

your servants and the children who have not attained

puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in

three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you

change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer.

These are three private times for you. At other times, it

is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another.

GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is

Omniscient, Most Wise.

Zuhr Salat

You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when

the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it

moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the

recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at

dawn is witnessed.

All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the

earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of

your day.

Asar Salat

You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers,

especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally

to GOD.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise

and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as

well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the

earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of

your day.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before

sunrise, and before sunset.

MAGHRAB Salat

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at

both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous

works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those

who would take heed.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise

and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as

well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before

sunrise, and before sunset.

ISHA Salat

Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as

the stars fade away.

And commemorate the name of your Lord day and

night.
During the night, fall prostrate before Him, and

glorify Him many a long night.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their

utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise

and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as

well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at

both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous

works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those

who would take heed.

Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at

night, and when you rise in the morning.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the

earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of

your day.

thank u for reading the article peace

[hlatif]

Salam brothers,

I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following

1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.

Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.

Salams

Hussein

[TheNabi]

Salaam,

Can falling or moving from up to down also entail stepping down at the authority of another or being humble in the face of a malik? Or would this be stretching the meaning of kharr?

Joe

[ayman]

Peace Hussein,

I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following

1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.

Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.

You might want to check the complete wording of 17107. It is very dangerous to just check one word in isolation without looking at context. In the context of "yakhirroon lilathkan sujjadan", do you physically fall to your chin. Remember "thaqn" means chin NOT forehead and if you take it physically then you must fall to the chin and NOT the forehead.

Also, is a person who physically prostrates but disobeys The God REALLY doing "sujud"? Is the primary meaning allegorical or physical?

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[hlatif]

Brother Ayman salam,

Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).

I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.

Salam

Hussein

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Hussein,

What physical prostration should we do? Should it be PHYSICALLY bowing our chins in the dirt, or is it physically opening a book and physcially moving our eyes over the signs of the God? One will ead us to rememberance of the God, one is just a memorized ritual that once you do enough times, it loses meaning because now your thoughts are drifting.

Let me bring this home, the human body is made of the earth(Humus+man= human), does the earth have to do physical movements by bending in a 90 degree angle? So why would the human body? The human body ALREADY prostrates becaue it growsm sweats, the heart beats, the hair grows, etc. THAT is the prostration of the human body, KNOW we must prostrate the MIND. We must hear and obey.

[ayman]

Peace brother Hussein,

Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).

If as you said The God wanted to describe the "really low" part, He could have easily said "till the forehead/"nasiya(t)"". In the traditional "sujud" that would be the logical thing to do. Saying "till something" when in fact it is "till something else" is illogical. On the other hand, "till the chin" means that the chin is the lowest part and not the forehead. Interestingly, it is impossible to put your chin and forehead on the ground and the same time.

I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.

It is OK if you take "sujud" to be physical and in the heart. The God is telling you to do "sujud" till the chin. Are you going to hear and obey The God and do sujud till the chin or are you going to hear "to the chin" and obey what the majority is doing?

This is the real test of the heart brother.

Interestingly, in the context of preventing from the real "salat", chapter 96 talks about the errant and lying forehead. What is the forehead doing that is a lie and in error?

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman

[hlatif]

Salam brothers,

As for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"

When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.

Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

As for the chapter 96, I read it differently from you

Araayta allathee yanha
Seest thou one who forbids-
10.
AAabdan itha salla
A votary when he (turns) to pray?
So someone is preventing someone from praying. and then it goes like this after a few more verses

Kalla la-in lam yantahi lanasfaAAanbialnnasiyati
Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-
16.
Nasiyatin kathibatin khati-atin
A lying, sinful forelock!

So, someone preventing someone from prayer and he is dragged by his forehead. (This is very interesting because the forehead does the Sujood. You understand that the false Sujood led this person that way. I understand that the person that refused and prevented others from prayer and therefore will receive his due on the forehead)

The Sura ends this way

Kalla la tutiAAhu waosjudwaiqtarib
Day, heed him not But prostrate in adoration, and bring thyself the closer (to Allah)!

So GOD says Don't listen and Prostrate

We can argue this back and forth so many times. I am certain that you have your points of discussion and that is great. May peace be with you

Hussein

[unknownuser]

Salaams Hlatif sahib,
You are trying to uphold a lot of mistranslations of the quran, may Allah guid you.

An example

you saidSo, someone preventing someone from prayer and he is dragged by his forehead. (This is very interesting because the forehead does the Sujood. You understand that the false Sujood led this person that way. I understand that the person that refused and prevented others from prayer and therefore will receive his due on the forehead)

Where have you gotten the forhead from ???I have checked and rechecked lanes and qd, but it has other meanings and non is close to anything like a forhead.

Keep following mistranslations and remain lost .I am not here to guide but you need to be able to guide .Thanks.

Salaams.

[hlatif]

Thanks for correcting me brother. I agree with you. I followed brother Ayman's words and I should have checked for myself. Thanks again

Nasia is forelock or a group of hairs

Hussein

[hlatif]

Salam brother mz357

Can you point my other mitranslations so that I can correct them as well please?

Hussein

[unknownuser]

Salaams Hlatif,
lookoing at your recent post alone

As for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"

When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.

Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

-Athqani = chins or faces ?

36108 (for comparision)

Verily we have put on their necks iron collars so these up to the chins (Alathqaani) so that they (are)made stiff-reached/ necked.

So 17107-108 becomes

Say believe in it or do not believe verily those who were given knowledge before it when it is recited to them they come on their chins submitting (Sujadan).

I.E This to me is a sajood but by lowering the chin , and when nothing physical is mentioned - then of course there is no physicallity involved.

Your previous quotes of ayats depicting a physical sajood were floored because of mistranslatings.

I hope i am not misunderstanding your post.

By the way have you seen the jews do sajood by their veilling wall,nodding their heads - sajood on their chins?

Thanks.

[Naishaannisa]

Salam Alaikum

how would you go about analyzing this ayat?

004.043
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

could some give their views on this it would be appreciate. Physical or allegorical?

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Naishaannisa,

My understanding of "salaat" is that it is the process. The process of learning/memory. The METHOD of this process is to read the signs of the God (wether it is the cration itself, or the reading) at dawn and dusk.

The God tells us not to come near this process while we are intoxicated UNTIL we know what we are SAYING. SAYING is a key word which denotes that it has to do with speech/reading, not commitments in general.

The rest is regarding the process of cleansing the LOWEST PART OF THE BEING, the physical body, because we start at the bottom and work our way up to the highest part of the BEING. We remind ourselves from the beginning that we are creations of water and earth(clay).

We remember this because far too many of us have fallen under the illusion that we are our bodies themselves.

[unknownuser]

Salaams Naisha,

Something other that may be help

43. O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

So after excreting feces,according to this translation funny all you need to do is wipe your faces and your hands (if you can't find water),and you then can take part in a salah!

The following is better

43. O you who believe, do not come near the SALAAT while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or DID A THING one of you FROM EXCRETION OF feces or sexual contact with the women and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your SELVES(YOUR ASSES ,IN THIS CASE) and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

This verse is describing some basic hygienic manners before meeting with people, in order to avoid illness transmission.

Now the following is better still

43. O you who believe, do not come near the SALAAT while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or DID A THING one of you FROM EXCRETION OF feces, or sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall wipe your SELVES with clean soil. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Tnanks.

[hlatif]

Thanks for your posts brother mz357,

The litteral most basic translation of the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

yakhirroon they fall or lower
lilto or till
athqan chins or beards.

therefore the statment can be understood in many ways since it leaves many specifics open. does the whole body lower or just part of it? till the chin reach where?. You understand it as falling on their chin and you like this explanantion because it is illogical. I understand it differently and this is my understanding

" they fall or lower(may be their face) till the chin (may be reach the chest)" I may be wrong and I may be right.

As for the physical aspect of the prayer. How can you explain those ayats

Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumualssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhummaAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-ithasajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatunokhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAakawalya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahumwadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikumwaamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatanwala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athanmin matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakumwakhuthoo hithrakum inna AllahaaAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

I find this Ayah very physical stand up in prayer, Arms, people behind people...

Waallatheena yabeetoonalirabbihim sujjadan waqiyaman
Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;

This indicates a movement of standing and prostrating. Something that people don't do mentally (at least tome)

Thank you and I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Hussein

[ayman]

Peace brother Hussein,

The litteral most basic translation of the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

yakhirroon they fall or lower
lilto or till
athqan chins or beards.

"thaqn" doesn't mean beard. The word "li7yat" means beard and that is how it is used in the great reading.

therefore the statment can be understood in many ways since it leaves many specifics open. does the whole body lower or just part of it? till the chin reach where?. You understand it as falling on their chin and you like this explanantion because it is illogical. I understand it differently and this is my understanding

" they fall or lower(may be their face) till the chin (may be reach the chest)" I may be wrong and I may be right.

If The God said "fall to the forehead" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you see "sujud" primary meaning as physical, it is fine, just obey The God and do your "sujud" to the chin and NOT the forehead. It is difficult but not impossible.

The only source for "sujud" being to the forehead are the idolaters.

As for the physical aspect of the prayer. How can you explain those ayats

Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

The three commands are related and simultaneous. There is not single verse of the great reading that says we should do "ruk3" first and then/"thuma" "sujud".

Is "uqnoti" (be devoted) physical?

How can Maryam physically prostrate and bow down at the same time?

How can Maryam "physically bow down with others" when we know from other signs that she was alone when the "malaika" came to her.

The meaning is "be devoted, hear and obey, and be humble with those who are humble".

Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumualssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhummaAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-ithasajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatunokhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAakawalya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahumwadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikumwaamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatanwala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athanmin matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakumwakhuthoo hithrakum inna AllahaaAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

I find this Ayah very physical stand up in prayer, Arms, people behind people...

How do you take your arms with you while "physically prostrating". Can you take a tank with you while physically prostrating? Of course not. On the other hand, you can listen to lessons and war commands based on the great reading while manning your tank. Once the learning process is completed and every body complies, then other troops should come and learn their commands. This is elementary war tactics. You don't have all of your army in a hall learning from the commander. Some learn their orders, while others stand watch. This is natural.

Waallatheena yabeetoonalirabbihim sujjadan waqiyaman
Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;

This indicates a movement of standing and prostrating. Something that people don't do mentally (at least tome)

Thank you and I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Do you spend the whole night in physical prostration on the ground? What purpose does that accomplish?

Does this mean that someone who is handicapped cannot be amongst the people described in 2564? There is no exception given.

Can you stand and physically prostrate at the same time?

When The God says "aqimu al-salat" does it mean "stand" or "establish/persist"? By the same token, "qiyam" means establish/persist.

So the meaning is "hear and obey and persist"

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman