SAlat
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Salam Drfazl,
I am going to address the question related to the mark on the forehead. I think that your explanantion is fine and I think that my explanation is fine as well and I think that they are not mutually exclusive.
As for your first point, Muhammad is not with us. The Arabic version of the Qur'an translates more properly like this " Muhammad, messenger of the prophet" The verb to be is rarely used in Arabic. Muhammad's message "the Qur'an" is with us.
I don't take "seeing is believing" attitude brother. I believe in the unseen. I believe in the GOD and I don't see him, I believe in the prophets, the angels. I believe in everything that GOD says exists that I don't see. I also believe in lots of unseens that GOD did not will for me to see.
One thing however, that is important to me is the fact that the unseen should not contradict the word of GOD. The reason that I disagreed with your was because you cited a single Ayah that you interpreted as Sujood when the word Sujood was not even mentioned in it, and then you made a swiping conclusion against Sujood. To me, you contradicted so many other Ayah's in the Qur'an that Talk about Sujood to GOD as something positive.
I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I thank you for the thought provoking exchanges.
Hussein
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Sujud Is Allegorical Too
Salam Drfazl, I believe that Sujood is something physical and allegorical. Sometimes it is only Allegorical, other times it is both.
I will wait for your interpretation on sujood the allegorical part of it! How do you perform the allegorical part of sujood in salat ? In that case, I agree with you salat also becomes allegorical sometimes. How is allegorical salat done ? Interesting twin part of this sujud and salat may break the ritual physical nature of prayer.
peace hlatif
drfazl -
It could be that Allegorical is not the right word since English is my second langauge. What I meant is
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
thank you for pointing out the Ayah's that used Sujood to Adam as an example Sujood not being prayer.
Clearly you did not check all the ayatin/signs I referenced, as they do not all refer to adam.
However, there are other instances when the derivatives of SJD clearly point to prayer
1- Masjid place Where Sujood takes place mentioned 21 times.
2- Masjidan same thing mentioned 22 times
3- Almasjid the masjid mentioned 14 times
4- Sujood prostration mentioned 5 times.There has been quite a lot of discussion on these terms. I suggest you read them.
As for the link, I thank you for it. I do not disagree that Sujood can be allegorical, however, I think that it also can be physical. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I believe in the two rather than just one. Why not?
I believe it can mean physical too, but to me, its clear mental prostration is at its core. Al Quran has a recurring theme of "inner outranks the outer" throughout.
I am afraid that I don't get your last point about the "yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan". The statement makes perfect sense to me that the people are taken by emotion when they hear the words of GOD and therefore they "fall rapidly and voluntarily to perform Sujod as in 3215, 1958, 17107" I see this all the time in the deep south when I visit Charismatic churches.
Do you fall down to the ground in prostration everytime you hear al quran being recited to you?
If not, why not?
Wakas
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Believing with Reasoning
Since the SJD means submission, then we submitt mentally, spiritually as well as physically to GOD. Whenever we pray to GOD, we go through the physical moves and as we do them we also submit to GOD in our hearts, in our minds and in our bodies.
HusseinShall we start with the definition of each? So that we agree on some baseline over which we can discuss? I think without defining ourselves on any word, or a subject it is futile to proceed.
My definitions of words
Submission Believing every ayat and its words that Allah says With ReasoningWith this as the first, we start!
May Al Aalim!
drfazl -
My definition of submission believing in what GOD says and obeying GOD's comands that include the physical and non physical prayers, in addition to all the other comands. I am not sure what you mean by reasoning, if I don't see the reasoning in what GOD says then I will pray on it till GOD reveal to me the way and then I realize my own limitations.
Brother Wakas, no I have not fallen to the ground performing Sujood but I have seen others do. I do not have access to a dictionary but I would like someone to investigate the exact meaning of the word "Kharr" any way. I think that you may be able to enlighten me here.
Thank you both for your patience with me.
Hussein
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Peace to bros n sis of free mind even though i have post an article in a different class but i think right place for it is here in this room plz kindly read it and bring u,r opnion n expalntion on the versus writing below in the article
Peace to bros n sis of free minds as i do some search on
the subject of salat i found some verses regarding the 5
prayers n will put them forwerd to u guys n will also hope
to hear u,r comment about them my research is as follows
Fajre Prayer
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out
your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and
praise your Lord when you get up.
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn asthe stars fade away.
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at
night, and when you rise in the morning.
O you who believe, permission must be requested by
your servants and the children who have not attained
puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in
three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you
change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer.
These are three private times for you. At other times, it
is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another.
GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is
Omniscient, Most Wise.
Zuhr Salat
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when
the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it
moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the
recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at
dawn is witnessed.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the
earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
Asar Salat
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers,
especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally
to GOD.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the
earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
MAGHRAB Salat
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before
sunrise, and before sunset.
ISHA Salat
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as
the stars fade away.
And commemorate the name of your Lord day and
night.
During the night, fall prostrate before Him, andglorify Him many a long night.
Therefore, be patient in the face of their
utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise
and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as
well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at
both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous
works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those
who would take heed.
Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at
night, and when you rise in the morning.
All praise is due to Him in the heavens and theearth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of
your day.
thank u for reading the article peace
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Salam brothers,
I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following
1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.
Salams
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
I did look the word "Kharra" in "Qamus Muheet" and it means the following
1-To fall.
2- To move from up to down.Therefore Kharr can mean movement from standing/sitting down to a lower position and therefore it is consistent with Prostrating.
You might want to check the complete wording of 17107. It is very dangerous to just check one word in isolation without looking at context. In the context of "yakhirroon lilathkan sujjadan", do you physically fall to your chin. Remember "thaqn" means chin NOT forehead and if you take it physically then you must fall to the chin and NOT the forehead.
Also, is a person who physically prostrates but disobeys The God REALLY doing "sujud"? Is the primary meaning allegorical or physical?
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Brother Ayman salam,
Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this
They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).
I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.
Salam
Hussein
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
What physical prostration should we do? Should it be PHYSICALLY bowing our chins in the dirt, or is it physically opening a book and physcially moving our eyes over the signs of the God? One will ead us to rememberance of the God, one is just a memorized ritual that once you do enough times, it loses meaning because now your thoughts are drifting.
Let me bring this home, the human body is made of the earth(Humus+man= human), does the earth have to do physical movements by bending in a 90 degree angle? So why would the human body? The human body ALREADY prostrates becaue it growsm sweats, the heart beats, the hair grows, etc. THAT is the prostration of the human body, KNOW we must prostrate the MIND. We must hear and obey.
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Peace brother Hussein,
Remeber that there are two meanings that I cited. The way that I understand the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this
They fall/or move down till their chins (The Ayah does not say that the chins touch the ground, therefore it may mean till the chins are just really low) in their performance of Sujood (prostration).
If as you said The God wanted to describe the "really low" part, He could have easily said "till the forehead/"nasiya(t)"". In the traditional "sujud" that would be the logical thing to do. Saying "till something" when in fact it is "till something else" is illogical. On the other hand, "till the chin" means that the chin is the lowest part and not the forehead. Interestingly, it is impossible to put your chin and forehead on the ground and the same time.
I do not deny that the Sujood is in the heart. However, I don't think that if you have Sujood in your heart then you should not do it physically. It is not either/or.
It is OK if you take "sujud" to be physical and in the heart. The God is telling you to do "sujud" till the chin. Are you going to hear and obey The God and do sujud till the chin or are you going to hear "to the chin" and obey what the majority is doing?
This is the real test of the heart brother.
Interestingly, in the context of preventing from the real "salat", chapter 96 talks about the errant and lying forehead. What is the forehead doing that is a lie and in error?
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Salam brothers,
As for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"
When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.
Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.As for the chapter 96, I read it differently from you
Araayta allathee yanha
Seest thou one who forbids-
10.
AAabdan itha salla
A votary when he (turns) to pray?
So someone is preventing someone from praying. and then it goes like this after a few more versesKalla la-in lam yantahi lanasfaAAanbialnnasiyati
Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-
16.
Nasiyatin kathibatin khati-atin
A lying, sinful forelock!So, someone preventing someone from prayer and he is dragged by his forehead. (This is very interesting because the forehead does the Sujood. You understand that the false Sujood led this person that way. I understand that the person that refused and prevented others from prayer and therefore will receive his due on the forehead)
The Sura ends this way
Kalla la tutiAAhu waosjudwaiqtarib
Day, heed him not But prostrate in adoration, and bring thyself the closer (to Allah)!So GOD says Don't listen and Prostrate
We can argue this back and forth so many times. I am certain that you have your points of discussion and that is great. May peace be with you
Hussein
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Salaams Hlatif sahib,
You are trying to uphold a lot of mistranslations of the quran, may Allah guid you.An example
you saidSo, someone preventing someone from prayer and he is dragged by his forehead. (This is very interesting because the forehead does the Sujood. You understand that the false Sujood led this person that way. I understand that the person that refused and prevented others from prayer and therefore will receive his due on the forehead)
Where have you gotten the forhead from ???I have checked and rechecked lanes and qd, but it has other meanings and non is close to anything like a forhead.
Keep following mistranslations and remain lost .I am not here to guide but you need to be able to guide .Thanks.
Salaams.
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Salaams Hlatif,
lookoing at your recent post aloneAs for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"
When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.
Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.-Athqani = chins or faces ?
36108 (for comparision)
Verily we have put on their necks iron collars so these up to the chins (Alathqaani) so that they (are)made stiff-reached/ necked.
So 17107-108 becomes
Say believe in it or do not believe verily those who were given knowledge before it when it is recited to them they come on their chins submitting (Sujadan).
I.E This to me is a sajood but by lowering the chin , and when nothing physical is mentioned - then of course there is no physicallity involved.
Your previous quotes of ayats depicting a physical sajood were floored because of mistranslatings.
I hope i am not misunderstanding your post.
By the way have you seen the jews do sajood by their veilling wall,nodding their heads - sajood on their chins?
Thanks.
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Salam Alaikum
how would you go about analyzing this ayat?
004.043
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.could some give their views on this it would be appreciate. Physical or allegorical?
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Peace be upon you Naishaannisa,
My understanding of "salaat" is that it is the process. The process of learning/memory. The METHOD of this process is to read the signs of the God (wether it is the cration itself, or the reading) at dawn and dusk.
The God tells us not to come near this process while we are intoxicated UNTIL we know what we are SAYING. SAYING is a key word which denotes that it has to do with speech/reading, not commitments in general.
The rest is regarding the process of cleansing the LOWEST PART OF THE BEING, the physical body, because we start at the bottom and work our way up to the highest part of the BEING. We remind ourselves from the beginning that we are creations of water and earth(clay).
We remember this because far too many of us have fallen under the illusion that we are our bodies themselves.
