Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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salams
Next, since when does the word "seal" mean LAST?
idolfree, i knew you were going to make that claim, that is why i added the word final.
go look up the word khaatim/kha-ta-ma... then talk. the word used is KHATIM, not seal.. but honestly, i am not interested in what you are going to look up and have to say... your pseudo-logic could twist even the clearest points into absurdity... and just based on the slightest tentative connections you draw bizarre conclusions (such as maryam=mind because both words are FEMININE). but at LEAST draw them based on the Arabic, not English!
but just fyi, the translation used the word seal to mean the final addition that capped off the long string of nabiyyeen that were sent.
ws
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Why don't you just be honest for a change and admit that you CANNOt find the statement that "muhammad" was the last messenger. PERIOD.
(such as maryam=mind because both words are FEMININE).
I explained the symbolism in detail, if that is all you got from my explanation than that is on you. I still have yet to hear your understanding, I hope it does not have anything to do with a woman bringing a child to earth without a father(seed).
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salams
haha that's a good one bro. instead of understanding what it means that the quran calls Muhammad (saw) "KHATIM AN-NABIYYEEN," instead of saying well let me think about that or let me research it since i dont know what khatim means... you just reject it out right.
why am i not surprised?
ws
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
instead of understanding what it means that the quran calls Muhammad (saw) "KHATIM AN-NABIYYEEN," instead of saying well let me think about that or let me research it since i dont know what khatim means... you just reject it out right.
Reject it? Where have I rejected anything except your understanding? Further, what makes you think I have no researched this? The fact that you cannot show me where this reading states that "muhammad" is the last messenger should speak for itself.
Seal of the prophets does not mean END or LAST prophet, only seal.
But do me a favor, lets deal with one issue at a time so no one gets confused. The word for messenger is rasool, please show us all where "muhammad" is called the last rasool.
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salams,
well this is really interesting. does anyone else find this interesting?
when it suits his needs, br idolfree makes all sorts of random connections for Arabic words... to the point that he can translate maryam as "the mind."
but when it suits his need he also eliminates the obvious meanings of the word and now claims that in no way does nabi refer to prophethood. amazing. truly amazing. and khatama does not have anything to do with last... only seal, specifically seal and nothing else. amazing... when he wants the meanings are so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and when he wants it is sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes.
ws
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Peace Shuaib,
Why not address the questions rather than addressing the audience? There's no need to make a spectacle out of the dialogue. The truth survives all scrutiny, and surely it will survive this discussion. We're all here to learn and share. So share your thoughts so others can learn, or learn from those who are sharing their thoughts. One can learn even in disagreement.
Peace,
Tay -
salams br tay,
well if you examine my posts, i am not just addressing the audience. i am making points to the audience because no one else is confronting idolfree to the obvious aggregious errors he is making (aka butchering of the Arabic language). like i told him, i am not trying to carry out a discussion with him. i understand your point about learning even from differences and i agree... but again, as i told him...
"when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt."
And what I said in my last post was very clear. Idolfree's tactics are clear now for all to see.
When it suits his needs, he eliminates the obvious meanings of the word and claims that in no way does nabi refer to prophethood. and khatama does not have anything to do with "last"... to him it only means the English word "seal."
At his whim, he makes the meanings so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and at his whim he makes the meaning sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes (such as maryam=mind).
And now these tactics are causing him to make claims which I consider bordering on blasphemy.. an essential concept of Islam is the finality of the prophethood with Muhammad (saw).
wassalam
ps - in case there was ANY doubt (and since idolfree does not have the capacity to by himself research the Arabic words and in this case relies purely on the English word SEAL), let me provide a quick root meaning
khatama - the basic meaning of this is to cover something so that no part of it is visible and no part of it can come out. For example when a seed is planted in the dirt and water is poured over it and hence the dirt hardens so that the seed is safe access to it is closed, that is called khatama. Others also add the essential meaning that it is like the final addition to something that closes that thing... aka SEAL, because after that, the thing is sealed and protected without any further access. Numerous other derivaties point to the meaning that it is the final addition to something.
nabi - to say this does not mean Prophet, but rasool means Prophet is ridiculous. these are 2 descriptions of the same thing. That is tantamount to saying rahman is referring to allah but raheem does not. The Prophets have been described both as rasool and nabi, as well as other things. but of course, when it suits your needs, all of a sudden now rasool means prophet but nabi does not.
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For clarification from Shuaib,
PeaceYou said
khatama - the basic meaning of this is to cover something so that no part of it is visible and no part of it can come out. For example when a seed is planted in the dirt and water is poured over it and hence the dirt hardens so that the seed is safe, access to it is closed, that is called khatama. Others also add the essential meaning that it is like the final addition to something that closes that thing... aka SEAL, because after that, the thing is sealed and protected without any further access. Numerous other derivaties point to the meaning that it is the final addition to something.My doubt is this
Q1)
If you refer 'khatama' to the Last Prophet that we are al referring to - or, all the prophets ? - or, to the prophethood itself ?
Q2)
'Khatama' - If the word means no access from within outwards; and from without inwards - it means that prophet or prophethood is sealed from access to both ways. Is not the porphet or the prophethood open to all access from all angles and to all corners of the worlds?
Q3)
If there is no need for additional explanation to something already sealed declared as complete, then, why are we disputing so many things for which we have no answer. As a result have not parted ways into multiple sections ? Allah says in The Book in case of dispute entrust the matter with HIM and His Rasul, the Messenger - and never mess things up!
In this case, today where is Rasul? Or the messengers ? Or the Nabi to deal with the scientific matters of today, or the problems of the nuclear era? If you still deny there shall never be Messengers, then we are in the dark; we will be ever in the darkness. what is your view on this ?
You say
nabi - to say this does not mean Prophet, but rasool means Prophet is ridiculous. these are 2 descriptions of the same thing. That is tantamount to saying rahman is referring to allah but raheem does not. The Prophets have been described both as rasool and nabi, as well as other things. but of course, when it suits your needs, all of a sudden now rasool means prophet but nabi does not.The question is
Q4)
2 Discription of same thing in two different ways is not quran for quran cannot contradict between any two of its own sayings. what do you say ? Prophet and Messenger has distinct meanings. Do you deny still and say both the words carry the same meaning ? Explain.
Q5)
Rahman and Rahim are the two names of incalculable attributes of Allah. Rahman alone is not allah and Rahim alone is not allah. All the inumerable attributes collectively take the EFFECT i.e., Allah! Your opinion on this is welcome!
Peace
drfazl -
salam drfazl,
I will respond to your Q's, with A's.
A1) Just read the verse. It is referring to Muhammad (saw).
A2) What is being sealed is nabuwwat or the ability to receive wahi from Allah. The wahi itself that HAS been received is obviously not sealed in the sense of inaccessable since it is being disseminated in a book! But wahi is sealed since no one else can receive wahi and add to the Quran or replace it.
A3) The Quran is the guidance for all matters, past present future.
A4) Rasool and nabi are different words with different meanings that describe 2 sides of the same coin. I will post something on this topic in the future as a separate subject. (I still have to post something on the meaning of Quran first)
A5) Rahman, rahim, and numerous other words are attributes of Allah used to refer to him. If the Quran says mir-rabikum, does that mean it's not from Allah? And if it says min-allah, does that mean it's not from our Rabb? 2 sides of the same coin.
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Peace Shuaib,
I didn't mean to insinuate that all your posts were addressing the audience, just the last one.
In any case, what are your thoughts on the difference between the word "nabi" and the word "rasool"?
Often, folks describe the difference as the difference between "messenger" and "prophet".
Prophet
- A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
- A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
Messenger
- One that carries messages or performs errands, as
A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels.
A military or official courier.
An envoy to another person, party, or government. - A bearer of news.
So I can see how one can be both a Prophet and a Messenger, but I don't think they are mutually inclusive or exclusive. Interestingly, to my knowledge, the Qur'an does not say "obey Muhammad", it says "obey the messenger".
Do you think this distinction has any relevance?
Peace,
Tay -
salams tay,
briefly i will say that the terms are used only for the "Prophets," or those who receive divine revelation. i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared.. but in some verses the aspect of nabi is emphasized, and in some the aspect of rasool... a'tee ar-rasool is used instead of a'tee an-nabi because we really are not meant to obey the prophet himself but rather the message he brings us, which the word rasool implies. but i will get into that in a new topic inshallah
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
and now claims that in no way does nabi refer to prophethood
Ridiculous. You have never seen such a claim. I am stating that Nabi=prophet and that rasool= messneger/message
The question to you is "where does the God say that "muhammad" is the last messenger? You are looking at seal of the NABI, and thinking seal of the rasool (even though seal doesn't mean LAST, but we can get to that after we take it one step at a time).
I am just getting caught up from yesterday, so I hope you have addressed the question in th eupcoming posts.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared
Ok, let us know when you have done the work.
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salam drfazl
A1) Just read the verse. It is referring to Muhammad (saw).Who Is Muhammad
How does Allah describe who Muhammad is, in His Book ? Do you ever come to know who Muhammad is at all, unless Allah HImself reveals ? Is Muhammad the character and the good will that a person earned by his unblemished life among his people ? Or, a christened name by his parents ? Or is it Allah who gave the name for he having completed His prophethood without error ? What do you understand from the Sura Muhammad in the Book ? Allah's full description of Muhamad is in that sura. Have you ever observed Muhammad, as Prophet and as Rasul in all the 38 ayats of Sura 47 ?
peace shuaib
drfazl -
A5) Rahman, rahim, and numerous other words are attributes of Allah used to refer to him. If the Quran says mir-rabikum, does that mean it's not from Allah? And if it says min-allah, does that mean it's not from our Rabb? 2 sides of the same coin.
Both Sides Of The Coin We Must Understand And Then Arrive At His Sign!
Read All The 6666 Verses and Then Come to The Understanding That Quran IS NOT THE DICTIONARY OF WORDS but Is The Truth From Allah, the Creator Without Flaw !Peace shuaib
drfazl -
salam drfazl,
A3) The Quran is the guidance for all matters, past present future.Do you think your answer to my question 3 is complete with a single sentence ? Have you elaborated or explained the guidance for a few things I have asked for ? Here it is again. Please answer.
Q3)
If there is no need for additional explanation to something already sealed declared as complete, then, why are we disputing so many things for which we have no answer. As a result have not parted ways into multiple sections ? Allah says in The Book in case of dispute entrust the matter with HIM and His Rasul, the Messenger - and never mess things up!
In this case, today where is Rasul? Or the messengers ? Or the Nabi to deal with the scientific matters of today, or the problems of the nuclear era? If you still deny there shall never be Messengers, then we are in the dark; we will be ever in the darkness. what is your view on this ?
peace shuaib
drfazl -
salam dr fazl,
i am working on a piece about the Quran. your doubts about the Quran will be answered (or countered) in that post.
as far as your feigned ignorance of who muhammad was, that will partially be answered/countered in my post on nabi. you may be in the dark without a nabi/messenger holding your hand... but that is not what the Quran teaches us and I certainly dont feel in the dark.
As i've said before, there's a million ways to botch up a good thing... it doesn't mean that the thing is bad. even in the time of the Prophet, he had to deal with munafiqeen.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you,
Any other understabndings about Isa, son of Mariam?