Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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For clarification from Shuaib,
PeaceYou said
khatama - the basic meaning of this is to cover something so that no part of it is visible and no part of it can come out. For example when a seed is planted in the dirt and water is poured over it and hence the dirt hardens so that the seed is safe, access to it is closed, that is called khatama. Others also add the essential meaning that it is like the final addition to something that closes that thing... aka SEAL, because after that, the thing is sealed and protected without any further access. Numerous other derivaties point to the meaning that it is the final addition to something.My doubt is this
Q1)
If you refer 'khatama' to the Last Prophet that we are al referring to - or, all the prophets ? - or, to the prophethood itself ?
Q2)
'Khatama' - If the word means no access from within outwards; and from without inwards - it means that prophet or prophethood is sealed from access to both ways. Is not the porphet or the prophethood open to all access from all angles and to all corners of the worlds?
Q3)
If there is no need for additional explanation to something already sealed declared as complete, then, why are we disputing so many things for which we have no answer. As a result have not parted ways into multiple sections ? Allah says in The Book in case of dispute entrust the matter with HIM and His Rasul, the Messenger - and never mess things up!
In this case, today where is Rasul? Or the messengers ? Or the Nabi to deal with the scientific matters of today, or the problems of the nuclear era? If you still deny there shall never be Messengers, then we are in the dark; we will be ever in the darkness. what is your view on this ?
You say
nabi - to say this does not mean Prophet, but rasool means Prophet is ridiculous. these are 2 descriptions of the same thing. That is tantamount to saying rahman is referring to allah but raheem does not. The Prophets have been described both as rasool and nabi, as well as other things. but of course, when it suits your needs, all of a sudden now rasool means prophet but nabi does not.The question is
Q4)
2 Discription of same thing in two different ways is not quran for quran cannot contradict between any two of its own sayings. what do you say ? Prophet and Messenger has distinct meanings. Do you deny still and say both the words carry the same meaning ? Explain.
Q5)
Rahman and Rahim are the two names of incalculable attributes of Allah. Rahman alone is not allah and Rahim alone is not allah. All the inumerable attributes collectively take the EFFECT i.e., Allah! Your opinion on this is welcome!
Peace
drfazl -
salam drfazl,
I will respond to your Q's, with A's.
A1) Just read the verse. It is referring to Muhammad (saw).
A2) What is being sealed is nabuwwat or the ability to receive wahi from Allah. The wahi itself that HAS been received is obviously not sealed in the sense of inaccessable since it is being disseminated in a book! But wahi is sealed since no one else can receive wahi and add to the Quran or replace it.
A3) The Quran is the guidance for all matters, past present future.
A4) Rasool and nabi are different words with different meanings that describe 2 sides of the same coin. I will post something on this topic in the future as a separate subject. (I still have to post something on the meaning of Quran first)
A5) Rahman, rahim, and numerous other words are attributes of Allah used to refer to him. If the Quran says mir-rabikum, does that mean it's not from Allah? And if it says min-allah, does that mean it's not from our Rabb? 2 sides of the same coin.
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Peace Shuaib,
I didn't mean to insinuate that all your posts were addressing the audience, just the last one.
In any case, what are your thoughts on the difference between the word "nabi" and the word "rasool"?
Often, folks describe the difference as the difference between "messenger" and "prophet".
Prophet
- A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
- A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
Messenger
- One that carries messages or performs errands, as
A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels.
A military or official courier.
An envoy to another person, party, or government. - A bearer of news.
So I can see how one can be both a Prophet and a Messenger, but I don't think they are mutually inclusive or exclusive. Interestingly, to my knowledge, the Qur'an does not say "obey Muhammad", it says "obey the messenger".
Do you think this distinction has any relevance?
Peace,
Tay -
salams tay,
briefly i will say that the terms are used only for the "Prophets," or those who receive divine revelation. i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared.. but in some verses the aspect of nabi is emphasized, and in some the aspect of rasool... a'tee ar-rasool is used instead of a'tee an-nabi because we really are not meant to obey the prophet himself but rather the message he brings us, which the word rasool implies. but i will get into that in a new topic inshallah
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
and now claims that in no way does nabi refer to prophethood
Ridiculous. You have never seen such a claim. I am stating that Nabi=prophet and that rasool= messneger/message
The question to you is "where does the God say that "muhammad" is the last messenger? You are looking at seal of the NABI, and thinking seal of the rasool (even though seal doesn't mean LAST, but we can get to that after we take it one step at a time).
I am just getting caught up from yesterday, so I hope you have addressed the question in th eupcoming posts.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared
Ok, let us know when you have done the work.
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salam drfazl
A1) Just read the verse. It is referring to Muhammad (saw).Who Is Muhammad
How does Allah describe who Muhammad is, in His Book ? Do you ever come to know who Muhammad is at all, unless Allah HImself reveals ? Is Muhammad the character and the good will that a person earned by his unblemished life among his people ? Or, a christened name by his parents ? Or is it Allah who gave the name for he having completed His prophethood without error ? What do you understand from the Sura Muhammad in the Book ? Allah's full description of Muhamad is in that sura. Have you ever observed Muhammad, as Prophet and as Rasul in all the 38 ayats of Sura 47 ?
peace shuaib
drfazl -
A5) Rahman, rahim, and numerous other words are attributes of Allah used to refer to him. If the Quran says mir-rabikum, does that mean it's not from Allah? And if it says min-allah, does that mean it's not from our Rabb? 2 sides of the same coin.
Both Sides Of The Coin We Must Understand And Then Arrive At His Sign!
Read All The 6666 Verses and Then Come to The Understanding That Quran IS NOT THE DICTIONARY OF WORDS but Is The Truth From Allah, the Creator Without Flaw !Peace shuaib
drfazl -
salam drfazl,
A3) The Quran is the guidance for all matters, past present future.Do you think your answer to my question 3 is complete with a single sentence ? Have you elaborated or explained the guidance for a few things I have asked for ? Here it is again. Please answer.
Q3)
If there is no need for additional explanation to something already sealed declared as complete, then, why are we disputing so many things for which we have no answer. As a result have not parted ways into multiple sections ? Allah says in The Book in case of dispute entrust the matter with HIM and His Rasul, the Messenger - and never mess things up!
In this case, today where is Rasul? Or the messengers ? Or the Nabi to deal with the scientific matters of today, or the problems of the nuclear era? If you still deny there shall never be Messengers, then we are in the dark; we will be ever in the darkness. what is your view on this ?
peace shuaib
drfazl -
salam dr fazl,
i am working on a piece about the Quran. your doubts about the Quran will be answered (or countered) in that post.
as far as your feigned ignorance of who muhammad was, that will partially be answered/countered in my post on nabi. you may be in the dark without a nabi/messenger holding your hand... but that is not what the Quran teaches us and I certainly dont feel in the dark.
As i've said before, there's a million ways to botch up a good thing... it doesn't mean that the thing is bad. even in the time of the Prophet, he had to deal with munafiqeen.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you,
Any other understabndings about Isa, son of Mariam?
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Isa and Adam
Be! And It Is!003.059
The similitude of ISA before Allah is as that of ADAM; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be". And he was.When Allah Wishes to Create, all He Says to it is " Be! and It Is! "
It is immaterial if both adam and Isa were created from dust. What matters is when Allah says "Be!" It comes to form from nothingness. there is no change in His creation whatsoever.Inference Being a Believer in " Be and It Is! " We are given the powers by His Leave that we can create what we need by a simple Command " BE! "
May Al Khaliq Bless us
drfazl -
Peace all
salams tay,
briefly i will say that the terms are used only for the "Prophets," or those who receive divine revelation. i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared.. but in some verses the aspect of nabi is emphasized, and in some the aspect of rasool... a'tee ar-rasool is used instead of a'tee an-nabi because we really are not meant to obey the prophet himself but rather the message he brings us, which the word rasool implies. but i will get into that in a new topic inshallah
wassalam
i also think that the rasool and nabiyy are logicaly and naturaly(see the meanings of the words and contextes) denoting two different but inseparable aspects of the same coin ...imo one can not be just rasool and not the nabi...and consequentially the terms are used interchangeably in the book
i have investigated it a few yers ago here are few writings from my site that deals with the topic and there you may find many relevant verses...
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/messproph.htm
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/nadheer.htm
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/whois.htm
p.s.
and you are well right about kyle and making points to the audience about his butchering of logic and the language..."When it suits his needs, he eliminates the obvious meanings of the word " and "At his whim, he makes the meanings so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and at his whim he makes the meaning sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes
but, as you have similarly noticed, what may be even more shocking from his attitude is that the others are taking him seriously....
best wishes, Zlatan
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salam br Zlatan,
long time no see, thanks for the comments... you're spoiling me, i'm not used to anyone agreeing with me
but yes it took me a while to figure out what really bothered me about idolfree's philosophy.. for a while i couldn't put my finger on it until he finally started being so silly about INSISTING, no khatama means seal... seal seal seal. yet however kitaab to him can mean the universe.. it's basically writing the book with your own hands, by taking whatever meanings you like (or even self-invented meanings) and negating any meanings you dont like based on no other system than his whim.
but that's no surprise since this is nothing new.. what was surprising as you mentioned, is that everyone was treating it so seriously even when disagreeing.
take care
wassalam
ps thanks for the links... i will still work on my post inshallah and perhaps get some help from your links. -
peace All,
I dont think the two words (nabi/prophet & rasool/messenger) are equal. They are used interchangibly sometimes because one who is a nabi is also a rasool, but one who is a rasool is not necassarily a nabi.
This is a similar relationship to muslim & mumin.
If anyone can show otherwise, I'd be interested to see the reference(s).
Wakas
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salams wakas,
workin on it ) inshallah that will be what i want to demonstrate. your point is well taken about muslim mu'min. but just to give you a real brief preview of what i will say, basically if you look at the meanings and uses of these words in the Quran, it becomes clear that it is used to refer to those whom we call "Prophets." Those who receive wahi (nabi) and deliver it to us (rasool). It does not happen that a prophet receives wahi but keeps it to himself, and if someone is delivering someone ELSES wahi then that person is just following the message. this latter person has not been shown to be referred to as a rasool in the quran and calling this kind of person a rasool only obscures the message. anyway, it will be more clear in my posts.
wassalam
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Peace All,
Interesting sidetrack.
I think the following is relevant4251
Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemunIt is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Peace,
Tay -
An Ayah that Makes Us Khalifa Of The WORLDS
In The Seat Of HonourPeace All,
4251
It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.A great ayah to ascertain each of you only Follow the Wahy, In The Name Of Allah, either direct or indirect. Never follow the masses, the asses mentioned in 625, who speak of conjectures in the name of muhammad, throwing away the Book behind their backs.
Here are a few LINKS to 4251
025001
Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon he who submits to HIM that he may be a Warner To The WORLDS, seated with Allah
054055
In the seat of honor with Allah.
068.052
But it is nothing less than a Message to all the worlds.Always speak of Allah In The Name Of Allah; never in the name of the masses. We are sure to be the Khalifa of the Worlds! In The Seat Of Honour With ALLAH.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2703
drfazl
