Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
-
Peace,
This is what Hebrew used to look like
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Silwan-inscr.jpgThe common "square" Hebrew alphabet of today emerged later than the Torah. It's value system is a ripoff of the Greek gematrical/geometical system of exalting idols using numbers. The Hebrew gematria goes A B G D H. Look at how D and H are related in terms of shape
http//img169.imageshack.us/img169/6268/abgdh.png
This is a logical order for Hebrew. There is a logical order for Arabic, too. Any beginner knows that we have BA TA and THAA together because they're so similar in shape - they only vary by dots
When people wanted to start experimenting with Arabic numerology (i.e., the junk science of playing with numbers), they superimposed Arabic over Hebrew, following the Hebrew order which is illogical for Arabic. Since Hebrew only has 22 letters, Arabic has six left over.
What amazes me is that you can look at Khalifa and his collaborators using 19 to PROVE that "the Arabs" (men, women, children - who cares, right?) would be wiped out by the god (on May 19th 1990) using 19-based numerology. They proved it. Obviously, they proved nothing. Don't you see how playing around with numbers can yield any desired result? That's how counting 19 is a fitnah/temptation for those who do not appreciate the god and his message.
Peace,
-David
-
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the
hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.I knew someone was going to say that....lol D
I am not "Upholding"...Per se...
I believe that the Math Code is so far the most Logical reason for the Quran's Preservence.
I have admitted that I so far dont completely understand it because I have a problem with Mathamatics (
But hope to One day Prove it Right...Or Honestly come out and say that I have proved it wrong.If I am able to Prove that Code 19 is Wrong...then I will 100% Agree with Ayman,
However for the time being...I feel it is Correct based off of what I understand so far (in theory).(when I say I am bad in math, I mean...I have the mathamatical education of or lower than a middle school student. however reading/comprehention/politics/etc...all at College Level) Dont make fun of me...
Thanks David For sharing that, Ill have to look into it.
Like I said...When I am able to FULLY do and understand this Code...I will admit whether it is TRUE or FALSE because I cannot Lie as a Muslim.
I have to answer to Allah SWT...and besides...it would be so incredibly stupid to Lie about something in regards to the Book of Allah.
I wouldnt want to be tormented in hell because of lying. -
Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.
Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.
1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmmSalaam, RA786.
First, it's important to realize that the Fatwa was issued against Rashad because of his promotion over code 19. Traditional scholars actually supported code 19 in the early stages, and the largest Sunni university in Egypt still supports it today http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549 (run it through Google translate if you have to).
The fatwa was issued for primarily one reason
- He claimed that 2 verses from the Quran were false.
It might have been a minor secondary reason that he claimed to be a messenger of God, however, if you look at the historical context, there have been countless people who claimed to be messengers of God, and lots of them weren't killed. For instance, Mrz Ghulm Amad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya faith which has millions of followers worldwide. According to the wiki ( http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad ), he died at the age of 72 from "dysentery and excessive weakness". The founders of the Bahai'i faith were killed not because they claimed to be messengers / prophets, but also claimed to be the physical manifestations of God.
But I digress, its an established fact that the reason the fatwa was issued was not because of code 19 at all, but because Rashad had claimed that 2 verses in the Quran were made by human.
However, when you claim that Rashad "wasn't just some old crazy guy who lies", I would have to say that there is unquestionable proof that shows that he indeed WAS a crazy liar. Check out my thread with a video here ( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600155.0 ) which proves that Rashad actually claimed that he received DIVINE SCRIPTURE from God; he claimed that all 3 of his translations were actually written by God himself, and were infallible. He claimed that he received new scripture, while somehow claiming that he was not a nabi / prophet, and only a rasul / messenger, and also claiming that Muhammad was undeniably the last prophet. It makes no sense, but just watch the video for yourself, read the thread for yourself, and you will see that Rashad Khalifa was INDEED a crazy old LIAR. It's undeniable.
My last comment I have on your post is that it is indeed fishy that a group with links to al Qaeda was used for the murder. However, it wasn't al Qaeda itself, it was the separate organization Jamaat al Fuqra. Jamaat al Fuqra is fishy in itself, in that it was also backed by CIA, because they claim to have 45 paramilitary organizations IN USA AND CANADA, yet the are not on any "terrorist watch list".
However, just because al Qaeda and Jamaat al Fuqra were funded, founded, trained, and protected by CIA does not mean that they don't carry out their own initiatives. I agree with you in that 9/11 was an inside job, not done by al Qaeda at all, but it seems as though the assassination of Rashad was carried out by a rogue individual who firmly believed the Quran should not be corrupted, not a CIA agent.
It's not really right to say it was done by al Qaeda, for al Qaeda itself is just an organization of mujaheddin around the world... Any and all terrorists can be called "al Qaeda", by their broad definition.
-
Peace Nimnimak,
Why do you assume that the titles were inspired by the god?
No I am not talking about initials or words. I am talking about geometric decorations. Are you saying that you never saw the decorations in a typical printed copy of the quran? Here is scanned page where I higlighted the title of the chapter and the decorations found at the beginning of each chapter with red circles
http//i38.tinypic.com/detxsz.jpg
So again, are the parts highlighted with red circles (the decorations and the chapter title) inspired by the god?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
If you know then please tell us more , when,who,where? -
If you know then please tell us more , when,who,where?
Peace Bahman,
People started to name the chapters for the purpose of ease of reference. It is interesting that the earliest documented references to chapter names do not come from Islamic sources but from Christian sources. For example, John of Damascus in 730CE in polemics against the quran refers to the chapters named The Women, The Cow, The Table, as well as other names such as the chapter of the Camel of God. Of course, there is currently no chapter by that name. The manuscript was probably referring to Chapter 91, where the phrase the camel of god is mentioned. So the Chapter names were around in the early 8th century but were not yet well established.
It is worth noting that what is presently termed Chapter 9 continues the same theme and rhyme of Chapter 8. Also, in early Quranic manuscripts the only separators were the Bismallah so Chapter 8 and 9 were one continuous chapter. It is only via the later chapter names and decorations that they became separated into 2 chapters.
Not sure if this answered your questions. Of course, since we don't have a time maching then some questions cannot be answered with 100% certainty. The only thing I know for sure is that the chapter titles are 100% manmade. Therefore, truly relying only on what is god-given and not manmade, the only possible conclusion is that what is currently Chapter 9 is part of a big Chapter 8 and the great reading only has 113 chapters.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
-
Peace ayman.
Who collected the Qoran? Who named the chapters? and Who separated sura 8 and sura 9 and gave them two different names?
Peace.
-
Peace.
good logic Who named the chapters? and Who separated sura 8 and sura 9 and gave them two different names?
ayman People started to name the chapters for the purpose of ease of reference. ... So the Chapter names were around in the early 8th century but were not yet well established. ... Of course, since we don't have a time maching then some questions cannot be answered with 100% certainty.
Abdelilah
-
Peace Abdelilah.
Do we just accept that or do we search Qoran for the answer?
Do you accept God collected the Qoran ?( Given instruction of how it should be put together and in what order?)
What does 7228 mean?
Peace.
-
Peace Abdelilah.
I am familiar with the verse before. "Relate it "? where did this word come from?
And what about 7228?
Peace.
-
Peace good logic,
"Relate it "? where did this word come from?
Quran A Reformist Translation. You could ask Mr. Y?ksel or Mr. Al-Shaiban why they chose to translate "qur'anahu" this way.
And what about 7228?
7228 This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things.
1993-94 Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.
7829 We counted everything in a record.
ayman (in 2004)
"There is mathematical structure in ALL of The God's creation. The God has counted all things (7228, 7829, 1994, etc.), so the mathematical excellence of The Creator is an indisputable truth. It is also a fact that we will never be able to count as accurately as our Lord does.What I have a problem with is when people remove and change parts of the great reading to make the data fit the desired results. They do it because they are more interested in "miracles" than in the truth. Their tempering is based on verse numbering, which is in itself a later day invention that was not part of the original text. Without the verse numbers, how do you know how many verses the 9th chapter has? How do you know where 91 or 9129 begin and end?"
PS I hope Dr. Ayman doesn't mind me quoting him.
Abdelilah
-
Peace Abdelilah.
If God has counted the number of all things. Then the answer is there. We will know for sure when we understand how to get to the right"count" ie when God guides us to it.
I am certain God created Science and Mathematics to " show" us His proof in all that He has created.
His Qoran contains the Mathematical/Scientific proof?
Peace. -
For those who are interested,
If you send me an EMAIL via YOUR GMAIL account and ask me Runing Like Zebras, I will allow you access to my GMAIL DRIVE where you can download the book for FREE.
The book contains my debate with Ayman and many other critics and skeptics, including Abdul Rahman Lomax, Bilal Phillips, Car Sagan and several other ingrates.
If you are interested in the paperback version, you may order it at
http//www.amazon.com/19-NINETEEN-Signature-Nature-Scripture/dp/0979671590/
Some information about the subject
http//19.org/category/yuksel/19-gods-signature-in-nature-and-scripture/