Who is Mister Israel and who is his descent?
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salam ayisha
thank you for giving the reference of the story in bible.
I never contested that moses killed a man.
But, in bible, the murder was with premeditation. This is obvious with Exodus 2-12
And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.while, in quran
28.15 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said "This is a work of Evil (Satan) for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"
it is clear that
Moses helped the man that appealed to him (without looking this way or this way)
strucked the man with his fist.
was not proud of what he has done (this is work of evil).So the killing of the man, in quran, can be quite considered as an accident.
So the clue question is Premeditation or not Premeditation . Bible says yes and quran says no.
It is a big difference. Very big difference.Peace
Personally I would take the 'looked this way and that' as an error in translation somewhere as he saw 2 men fighting so there was obviously another there. Even so if he did look this way and that it still doesn't mean he intended to kill him.......he could have looked this way and that to check no one was looking while he punched him out.......there is no premeditation there IMHO, but the final result is the same, he did kill him.
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Salaam ayisha
Here my compilation of verses that reinforce my convinction that we have not to accept torah as it is
259 But the wicked altered what was said to them to a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked an affliction from the heavens for what wickedness they were in.
275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?
277 Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?
279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.
2146 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.
446 From among those who are Jewish are some who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
513 But because of them breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and made their hearts become hardened; they take the words out of context; and they forgot much of what they were reminded of. And you will still discover betrayal in them except for a few; so pardon them and overlook; God loves the good doers.
515 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book.
541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said "We believe" with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among those who are Jewish, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they say "If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware!" And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
691 And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say "Who then has sent down the Book which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it simply as paper for display, and you conceal much; and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.
7162 Those who were transgressors among them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them an affliction from the heaven for what transgression they were in.
and i think that quran is here to correct because of
2776 This Qur'an tells to the Children of Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.
Peace
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Peace be upon you guys as well,
Israel was A descendant of Noah, not the Direct descended of Noah... -
Salaam ayisha
Here my compilation of verses that reinforce my convinction that we have not to accept torah as it is
Salam noshirk
Bold is from me
259 But the wicked altered what was said to them to a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked an affliction from the heavens for what wickedness they were in.
275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?
277 Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?
Like I said before somewhere, this IS happening NOW with Quran and 'a group of Muslims' who change what was said to a different saying, are they in any way altering the actual Quran? No.
279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.
Again happening NOW with those who write the hadith and claim it is part of the revelation from God. Have you any idea how much has been made out of Sahih whoever and fiqh this and tafsir that, ALL writing the book with their own hands saying this is from God. Some people in this forum have even said Quran NEEDS hadith more than hadith need Quran. But has any of this changed the ACTUAL words in Quran? No.
2146 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
same again, a group of muslims claim that men can have 4 wives just because he wants, or if he can afford, and some say these 4 wives don't have to know about each other, deceit is fine, there are some lies that are ok etc, is that what it says? No.Many people in Islamic countries can't even read so have no way to know Quran but to have someone read it to them or explain it or go to the masjid and have it mixed in with hadith, that is the same, they are hiding the truth. Does it change what is actually in Quran? No.
378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.
My personal favourite! yay Think hadith.......this is exactly what the jews did but making the REAL Torah into THEIR Torah and adding the ORAL (by their tongues) hadith of Moses...........like the ORAL hadith of Muhammed and the claims hadith are 'the wisdom' sent as some separate secret revelation and they even say it's 'protected' with Quran. Does it change the actual words in Quran? No.446 From among those who are Jewish are some who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
same again...........513 But because of them breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and made their hearts become hardened; they take the words out of context; and they forgot much of what they were reminded of. And you will still discover betrayal in them except for a few; so pardon them and overlook; God loves the good doers.
the jews did break their covenant with God, they were God's chosen people and He promised them the land which they still don't have and never will have because they broke their covenant and they will forever be sorry, but not ALL jews. There are verses that tell you that too and they will be fine as they are following the Law even now.515 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book.
ok, so which clarifications has 'this' book made on what has been hidden from 'that' book? It actually confirms the stories, all those mentioned in Quran can be found in the 'other' book, so what is hidden?541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said "We believe" with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among those who are Jewish, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they say "If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware!" And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
and there is in there the famous hadithist distortion of 'whatever the messenger gives you take it' to mean follow how he went to the toilet! The full verse they leave as it's actually about spoils of war, but not many have looked anyway.691 And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say "Who then has sent down the Book which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it simply as paper for display, and you conceal much; and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.
so here God is telling Muhammed to say this to the Jews, confirming He sent it but also confirming
that people concealed what was in it..........and still is in it......just like the hadithist claim of a partial verse concealing the rest......7162 Those who were transgressors among them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them an affliction from the heaven for what transgression they were in.
God said in Quran that the messenger was not to give anything other than Quran or He would have his jugular cut.....hadithists claim this is proof that hadith are also from God and claim Muhammed said them..........another hadith says do not write anything from me but Quran and another says that was only while Quran was being revealed...........which bit is from God and has the other bits changed anything that was from God?and i think that quran is here to correct because of
2776 This Qur'an tells to the Children of Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.
Peace
yes but none of it changes the book does it?
Quran was send as a guide and a WARNING, the warning is to US, me and you, and these verses clearly warn what MAN has done to mess about with the message without ANY change to the actual message...........Muslims are told that you can't possibly understand Quran without hadith...........so history repeats itself and man does exactly the same as before and completely changes the entire message of God to something unrecognizable and people STILL go along with it even though they KNOW as they can READ the actual words, but the wicked among them manage to manipulate it so that cover your bosom means cover everything but one eye to see with and if you fear you can't do justice to the orphans then marry women of your choice up to 4, but one is BETTER as God knows you can't deal with them all justly to actually mean you can have 4 wives if you WANT...................
Do you see where I'm going with all this?
and still the Quran remains the same as it was when it was revealed.................
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Salaam
Little adding.First of all, i want to notice that i am not agree with the expression "Israeli prophets"
To use this expression, we have to proove that there was at least one prophet from Bani Israel.
To be sent to Bani Israel doens'nt mean Chossen between people Bani Israel.The hypothesis "all prophets are issued from the same geographical place" is interesting.
If true, that means if we locate one of them, we will locate all of them.For example, we know that place where Muhammad was is linked to people of Lot who is linked to Abraham. Muhammad, Moses and Isaa lived in a place where there was a people called Bani Israel that were divided in 12 parts (Asbat) during Moses period according to a God Decision (7-160).
"Official Story" of Bani Israel lost 10 of the 12 so called "Tribes". We have even no proofs that the two not lost tribes are in fact from Bani Israel. All what we knows is that they were jews.1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Misr, and let these homes be a Qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."
I think that is a clear instruction. "Be TownsFolk and propagate religion Of God from there".
From that moment, we have to take into account the fact that many "jews" are not probably from Bani Israel.
Notice also that 10-87 seems to indicate that reconquest of Firaoun Land was not a military reconquest as indicated by "Josuah" story in bible.Funningly, who knows? "True bani israel" could be themself a "God choosen" geographical marker.
Quran don't speaks about "Bani Israel" separation and migrations after Moses. Perhaps they never left the "true God promised land" after the Firaoun story.
And who knows, perhaps they are no more all "jews" ?
Perhaps it is only religion, teached from Qiblas as sources, who migrated and never "Bani Israel".Peace
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For example, we know that place where Muhammad was is linked to people of Lot who is linked to Abraham. Muhammad, Moses and Isaa lived in a place where there was a people called Bani Israel that were divided in 12 parts (Asbat) during Moses period according to a God Decision (7-160).
"Official Story" of Bani Israel lost 10 of the 12 so called "Tribes". We have even no proofs that the two not lost tribes are in fact from Bani Israel. All what we knows is that they were jews.There were no Jews then.
1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Misr, and let these homes be a Qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."
I think that is a clear instruction. "Be TownsFolk and propagate religion Of God from there".
I think that is a clear instruction to "Let your people leave their homes in Misr, and let these homes be a Qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."
From that moment, we have to take into account the fact that many "jews" are not probably from Bani Israel.
so they are from................whom?
Notice also that 10-87 seems to indicate that reconquest of Firaoun Land was not a military reconquest as indicated by "Josuah" story in bible.
What military conquest? ??? You mean the Amelekites? That was after they came out of Egypt/Misr/kemet/black lands
peace
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I think that is a clear instruction to "Let your people leave their homes in Misr, and let these homes be a Qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."
so they are from................whom?
What military conquest? ??? You mean the Amelekites? That was after they came out of Egypt/Misr/kemet/black landspeace
I remember clearly that you requested Pazuzu to mail you Book I - In search for Pharaoh.
I suppose you have read it, since you requested it, however I have not seen any message of yours commenting or contradicting its contents and what you write here looks as if you had not read the book or as if you disregard completely what it says.
Salaam
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I remember clearly that you requested Pazuzu to mail you Book I - In search for Pharaoh.
I suppose you have read it, since you requested it, however I have not seen any message of yours commenting or contradicting its contents and what you write here looks as if you had not read the book or as if you disregard completely what it says.
Salaam
Yes I did request it but you suppose wrongly, I have not read it yet as The Odyssey and The Iliad are uppermost on my current reading list, due to tests. I didn't realize that I would be tested on Pazuzu's book.
When I have read it I'm sure I will have questions or comments on it, which I will direct to the writer.
As the poster I was replying to here on this thread mentioned the Joshua story in the bible, that is what I was referring to when I answered.
peace
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Salam
sorry if I interrupt your discussion.
after reading all the posts a main question coming into my mind
Have we another source than this place in the bible that tells us that Jacob became/ or was named Israel??
I can not believe this story that Jacob fight with God or an Angel and wins ...
And the Quran does mention bani Israel and also Jacob. If Israel = Jacob , then it would be clearly written in the Quran.
Salam ) -
There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
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There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
Then that would include all of us, but it doesn't.
peace
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Salam
sorry if I interrupt your discussion.
after reading all the posts a main question coming into my mind
Have we another source than this place in the bible that tells us that Jacob became/ or was named Israel??
I can not believe this story that Jacob fight with God or an Angel and wins ...
And the Quran does mention bani Israel and also Jacob. If Israel = Jacob , then it would be clearly written in the Quran.
SalamI don't believe the fight with God as it's written but I do bear in mind that this was a few thousand years ago and strange things were interpreted in the only way they could make sense of things. - think also parables, possibly.
My personal take on this, at this time, is that the descendants of Jacob became the 'children of Israel' so Quran still speaks of Jacob as Jacob and his descendants as 'children of Israel'.
Quran is a confirmation of what went before it so that said (a few times) why does God need to tell you every single detail that He already did in those confirmed books? There are a ton of stories in Quran pointing you back to those in the other books, books that were with Muhammed at the time of revelation, IMHO we are to go look for ourselves IF any part of what we don't know/understand is relevant to our salvation and we want to know.
Jacob being Israel or not, is not relevant to our salvation or the message of God in all the books.
peace
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There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
Salaam abdalquran
Thank you for reminding 5-32.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth.
173 The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
So there is doubt for me.
Israel was perhaps on the boat with Noah but 173 can also be understood as it was the descent of Israel who was carried on the boat with Noah
532 seems to indicate that Israel came very early. Quite from the beginning.
I accept as plausible the hypothesis that Israel can be anterior to Noah.However, i am not agree, dear abdalquran , that Bani Israel=Bani Adam.
i don't think that Quran make such confusion. Bani Israel and Bani Adam are two different expression in quran so they should be, at my opinion, two different populations.393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
393 clearly indicates, for me, two things Israel was the name of a man and Israel was a false prophet.
so Israel cannot be the name of bani AdamPeace
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Then that would include all of us, but it doesn't.
peace
Why do you think it doesn't?
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Peace noshirk,
So there is doubt for me.
Israel was perhaps on the boat with Noah but 173 can also be understood as it was the descent of Israel who was carried on the boat with NoahHard for me to accept for two reasons
a. The Quran is not a historical book for me
b. israel isn't mentioned here, bani israel are. The context is the kitab of musa which I read as musa's system of realising masjid al-haram.532 seems to indicate that Israel came very early. Quite from the beginning.
I accept as plausible the hypothesis that Israel can be anterior to Noah.This is the kind of historical speculation I'd rather not play with.
However, i am not agree, dear abdalquran , that Bani Israel=Bani Adam.
i don't think that Quran make such confusion. Bani Israel and Bani Adam are two different expression in quran so they should be, at my opinion, two different populations.It's not confusing for me. bani adam is another side to bani israel. However, you're free to read as you wish )
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Salam all
Peace noshirk,
Hard for me to accept for two reasons
a. The Quran is not a historical book for me
b. israel isn't mentioned here, bani israel are. The context is the kitab of musa which I read as musa's system of realising masjid al-haram.This is the kind of historical speculation I'd rather not play with.
It's not confusing for me. bani adam is another side to bani israel. However, you're free to read as you wish )it seems strange that only these two names, Adam and Israel are mentioned in connection with Bani.
Bani Adam as the human race, which recognizes God, but always makes mistakes-i.e "normal" people
Bani Israel as as transgressors, polytheists, it falls on that God mentions Bani Israel mostly, if not always negative
If we were there again in connection with the tree in Paradise and the "Shaytan"- and maybe with Noah and this catastrophic flood, mentioned by many ancient cultures?
but clear All this thoughts touches not the believe in God alone ...
SalamSalam
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Sorry, but I think that all this true lineage stuff sounds like racist crypto-rabbinic crap.
Half the problem for Westerners trying to figure out Islam is trying to figure out Arabic.
Problem for many, including Arabs, is remembering that the world was once much more Oriental in culture and that Islam is directly descended from the pre-Nicean Christianity yet fails to reflect this.Regardless, I think that literalism is a poison to any prophetic message.
Salaam.