Who is Mister Israel and who is his descent?
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Salam
sorry if I interrupt your discussion.
after reading all the posts a main question coming into my mind
Have we another source than this place in the bible that tells us that Jacob became/ or was named Israel??
I can not believe this story that Jacob fight with God or an Angel and wins ...
And the Quran does mention bani Israel and also Jacob. If Israel = Jacob , then it would be clearly written in the Quran.
Salam ) -
There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
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There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
Then that would include all of us, but it doesn't.
peace
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Salam
sorry if I interrupt your discussion.
after reading all the posts a main question coming into my mind
Have we another source than this place in the bible that tells us that Jacob became/ or was named Israel??
I can not believe this story that Jacob fight with God or an Angel and wins ...
And the Quran does mention bani Israel and also Jacob. If Israel = Jacob , then it would be clearly written in the Quran.
SalamI don't believe the fight with God as it's written but I do bear in mind that this was a few thousand years ago and strange things were interpreted in the only way they could make sense of things. - think also parables, possibly.
My personal take on this, at this time, is that the descendants of Jacob became the 'children of Israel' so Quran still speaks of Jacob as Jacob and his descendants as 'children of Israel'.
Quran is a confirmation of what went before it so that said (a few times) why does God need to tell you every single detail that He already did in those confirmed books? There are a ton of stories in Quran pointing you back to those in the other books, books that were with Muhammed at the time of revelation, IMHO we are to go look for ourselves IF any part of what we don't know/understand is relevant to our salvation and we want to know.
Jacob being Israel or not, is not relevant to our salvation or the message of God in all the books.
peace
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There is nothing like that in the Quran, mirjamnur. To me, israel is the nation of adam. I understood this from 5/27-32 in which the consequence of the children of adam was written upon bani israel.
Salaam abdalquran
Thank you for reminding 5-32.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth.
173 The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
So there is doubt for me.
Israel was perhaps on the boat with Noah but 173 can also be understood as it was the descent of Israel who was carried on the boat with Noah
532 seems to indicate that Israel came very early. Quite from the beginning.
I accept as plausible the hypothesis that Israel can be anterior to Noah.However, i am not agree, dear abdalquran , that Bani Israel=Bani Adam.
i don't think that Quran make such confusion. Bani Israel and Bani Adam are two different expression in quran so they should be, at my opinion, two different populations.393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
393 clearly indicates, for me, two things Israel was the name of a man and Israel was a false prophet.
so Israel cannot be the name of bani AdamPeace
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Then that would include all of us, but it doesn't.
peace
Why do you think it doesn't?
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Peace noshirk,
So there is doubt for me.
Israel was perhaps on the boat with Noah but 173 can also be understood as it was the descent of Israel who was carried on the boat with NoahHard for me to accept for two reasons
a. The Quran is not a historical book for me
b. israel isn't mentioned here, bani israel are. The context is the kitab of musa which I read as musa's system of realising masjid al-haram.532 seems to indicate that Israel came very early. Quite from the beginning.
I accept as plausible the hypothesis that Israel can be anterior to Noah.This is the kind of historical speculation I'd rather not play with.
However, i am not agree, dear abdalquran , that Bani Israel=Bani Adam.
i don't think that Quran make such confusion. Bani Israel and Bani Adam are two different expression in quran so they should be, at my opinion, two different populations.It's not confusing for me. bani adam is another side to bani israel. However, you're free to read as you wish )
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Salam all
Peace noshirk,
Hard for me to accept for two reasons
a. The Quran is not a historical book for me
b. israel isn't mentioned here, bani israel are. The context is the kitab of musa which I read as musa's system of realising masjid al-haram.This is the kind of historical speculation I'd rather not play with.
It's not confusing for me. bani adam is another side to bani israel. However, you're free to read as you wish )it seems strange that only these two names, Adam and Israel are mentioned in connection with Bani.
Bani Adam as the human race, which recognizes God, but always makes mistakes-i.e "normal" people
Bani Israel as as transgressors, polytheists, it falls on that God mentions Bani Israel mostly, if not always negative
If we were there again in connection with the tree in Paradise and the "Shaytan"- and maybe with Noah and this catastrophic flood, mentioned by many ancient cultures?
but clear All this thoughts touches not the believe in God alone ...
SalamSalam
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Sorry, but I think that all this true lineage stuff sounds like racist crypto-rabbinic crap.
Half the problem for Westerners trying to figure out Islam is trying to figure out Arabic.
Problem for many, including Arabs, is remembering that the world was once much more Oriental in culture and that Islam is directly descended from the pre-Nicean Christianity yet fails to reflect this.Regardless, I think that literalism is a poison to any prophetic message.
Salaam. -
(Don't get me wrong. I love a good archaeological rant as much as the next person but it should serve to enlighten, not to perpetuate some kind of ancient internal feud. The very earliest of Muslim scholars have taken such precious care in explaining to people that the true nature of Al Lah is so unfathomable, so beyond gender and other human measures of substance that I simply do not see how people can continually become so entangled in the sort of mundane talk which only ever ends in confrontation.)
sun