Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Peace all
salams tay,
briefly i will say that the terms are used only for the "Prophets," or those who receive divine revelation. i am going to post a separate topic on that when i have the materials prepared.. but in some verses the aspect of nabi is emphasized, and in some the aspect of rasool... a'tee ar-rasool is used instead of a'tee an-nabi because we really are not meant to obey the prophet himself but rather the message he brings us, which the word rasool implies. but i will get into that in a new topic inshallah
wassalam
i also think that the rasool and nabiyy are logicaly and naturaly(see the meanings of the words and contextes) denoting two different but inseparable aspects of the same coin ...imo one can not be just rasool and not the nabi...and consequentially the terms are used interchangeably in the book
i have investigated it a few yers ago here are few writings from my site that deals with the topic and there you may find many relevant verses...
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/messproph.htm
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/nadheer.htm
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/whois.htm
p.s.
and you are well right about kyle and making points to the audience about his butchering of logic and the language..."When it suits his needs, he eliminates the obvious meanings of the word " and "At his whim, he makes the meanings so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and at his whim he makes the meaning sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes
but, as you have similarly noticed, what may be even more shocking from his attitude is that the others are taking him seriously....
best wishes, Zlatan
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salam br Zlatan,
long time no see, thanks for the comments... you're spoiling me, i'm not used to anyone agreeing with me
but yes it took me a while to figure out what really bothered me about idolfree's philosophy.. for a while i couldn't put my finger on it until he finally started being so silly about INSISTING, no khatama means seal... seal seal seal. yet however kitaab to him can mean the universe.. it's basically writing the book with your own hands, by taking whatever meanings you like (or even self-invented meanings) and negating any meanings you dont like based on no other system than his whim.
but that's no surprise since this is nothing new.. what was surprising as you mentioned, is that everyone was treating it so seriously even when disagreeing.
take care
wassalam
ps thanks for the links... i will still work on my post inshallah and perhaps get some help from your links. -
peace All,
I dont think the two words (nabi/prophet & rasool/messenger) are equal. They are used interchangibly sometimes because one who is a nabi is also a rasool, but one who is a rasool is not necassarily a nabi.
This is a similar relationship to muslim & mumin.
If anyone can show otherwise, I'd be interested to see the reference(s).
Wakas
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salams wakas,
workin on it ) inshallah that will be what i want to demonstrate. your point is well taken about muslim mu'min. but just to give you a real brief preview of what i will say, basically if you look at the meanings and uses of these words in the Quran, it becomes clear that it is used to refer to those whom we call "Prophets." Those who receive wahi (nabi) and deliver it to us (rasool). It does not happen that a prophet receives wahi but keeps it to himself, and if someone is delivering someone ELSES wahi then that person is just following the message. this latter person has not been shown to be referred to as a rasool in the quran and calling this kind of person a rasool only obscures the message. anyway, it will be more clear in my posts.
wassalam
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Peace All,
Interesting sidetrack.
I think the following is relevant4251
Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemunIt is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Peace,
Tay -
An Ayah that Makes Us Khalifa Of The WORLDS
In The Seat Of HonourPeace All,
4251
It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.A great ayah to ascertain each of you only Follow the Wahy, In The Name Of Allah, either direct or indirect. Never follow the masses, the asses mentioned in 625, who speak of conjectures in the name of muhammad, throwing away the Book behind their backs.
Here are a few LINKS to 4251
025001
Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon he who submits to HIM that he may be a Warner To The WORLDS, seated with Allah
054055
In the seat of honor with Allah.
068.052
But it is nothing less than a Message to all the worlds.Always speak of Allah In The Name Of Allah; never in the name of the masses. We are sure to be the Khalifa of the Worlds! In The Seat Of Honour With ALLAH.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2703
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Zlatan,
p.s.
and you are well right about kyle and making points to the audience about his butchering of logic and the language..."When it suits his needs, he eliminates the obvious meanings of the word " and "At his whim, he makes the meanings so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and at his whim he makes the meaning sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes
but, as you have similarly noticed, what may be even more shocking from his attitude is that the others are taking him seriously....
This is the second time you have given an emotional response regarding my position, yet you are not bringing any evidence to refute my positions. Peace.
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Peace be upon you Zlatan and Shuiab,
Can I hear both of your understandings regarding Isa, son of Mariam. Let me know if it is a literal story, or symbolic, and if symbolic, what is the symbolism dealing with.
Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish. Do you realize that the material world is an illusion? Do you realize that all you hear , see, taste , touch and smell are but impulses? A life of perceptions? But instead you sit here and ridicule serious study and offer no position of your own (that is logical and agrees with thge context).
Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it. Please refrain from the same comments made by those without faith all throughout history such as "He's crazy", "the crazy people follow his idea" "etc".
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idolfree, we need both the worlds and those who pray for both the worlds are seeking the best is what Allah says. Totally being esotric is suggesting that the heavenly life is not at all possible with our human image and form and shape and state fo mind- all together.
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salam idolfree,
Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it.
amazing that you say this right after we are clearly pointing out your mistakes.
Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish.
Didn't we already have an extensive discussion that went no where, ending at the point where you refused to accept the meaning of 22, and created your own meaning using faulty Arabic grammar ? Go back and check the thread.
Do you realize that the material world is an illusion?
Amazing, did you think of that all by yourself? This is an ancient theory, pervasive amongst the Greeks and nowadays amongst Hindus and Buddhists.
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
The basic meaning of HAQQ is something that is verfiable true and concrete, established. Another understanding of haqq is REALITY.
Of course, we perceive this reality through our senses which are nothing more than electrical impulses in our brain... but that does not make the universe a dream... any more than a sonar detection of a missile makes the missiles a dream... the sonar screen is a tool for the detection of the real missiles, and our senses are a detection tool for the real universe.
I'm sure you'll be ready again with some wacked out interpretations so really, I'm not interested. I just make it a point to point out your major distortions of what Islam is about.. but I really dont intend to have a discussion with you, because as I have said before
"when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt."
When it suits your needs, you eliminate the obvious meanings of words, and when it suits your needs, you generalize the meanings of words to the extent that you can connect random concepts together.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree, we need both the worlds and those who pray for both the worlds are seeking the best is what Allah says. Totally being esotric is suggesting that the heavenly life is not at all possible with our human image and form and shape and state fo mind- all together.
I have no where suggested that we should not be balanced, in fact, I have been discussing with you the difference between knowlede (EXternal) and Wisdom(INternal). It is you who has been saying we should reject the EXTernal, which is KNOwledge. I am saying we need a balance of both, yet the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.
Can someone give me a clear example of of a concept that I take as SYmbolic, that others see as literal so we might discuss it, rather than the continuos statements of disagreement without any examples.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
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Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it.amazing that you say this right after we are clearly pointing out your mistakes.
Which are?
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Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish.Didn't we already have an extensive discussion that went no where, ending at the point where you refused to accept the meaning of 22, and created your own meaning using faulty Arabic grammar ? Go back and check the thread.
What is a word? It is a sound that mankind has given meaning to. Let me repeat that, a word is a sound that mankind has given meaning to. So the God says When He decides on a matter, He says "BE" and it is. This means that ALL THINGS come from sound. What does sound come from? Vibration. DO all things vibrate? Yes. Are all things SOUND? Yes.
WHat is a book? A collection of "words/sounds". What is the UNI(one) Verse(word/sound)?
You see, it is all logically connected. And guidance is found in this logical connection, without doubt.
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Do you realize that the material world is an illusion?Amazing, did you think of that all by yourself? This is an ancient theory, pervasive amongst the Greeks and nowadays amongst Hindus and Buddhists.
The Greeks learned it from the Egyptians, but whatever the case, this reading confirms that which came before.
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
The basic meaning of HAQQ is something that is verfiable true and concrete, established. Another understanding of haqq is REALITY.
Of course, we perceive this reality through our senses which are nothing more than electrical impulses in our brain... but that does not make the universe a dream... any more than a sonar detection of a missile makes the missiles a dream... the sonar screen is a tool for the detection of the real missiles, and our senses are a detection tool for the real universe.
But who was the person who went BEYOND thier senses to know that the missle or its sonar detection was a real material? Please do not confuse reality with materiality.
I'm sure you'll be ready again with some wacked out interpretations so really, I'm not interested. I just make it a point to point out your major distortions of what Islam is about.. but I really dont intend to have a discussion with you, because as I have said before
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"when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt."When it suits your needs, you eliminate the obvious meanings of words, and when it suits your needs, you generalize the meanings of words to the extent that you can connect random concepts together.
Yet you still cannot show any proof, or give anyone a working system based on the wisdom in the reading to guide anyones life. Peace to you.
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idolfree, what I am trying to express all along is Shall we not seek Wisdom to beat the illusion that our lives suffering in this world, so as to envision and live through the reality the worlds were created with and elevate ourselves into the world next as shaidis. Allah says this world and the skies and everything in between were not created in vain; but our ways of life with our knowledge gained is a test and an illusion.
the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.
Can illusion have the Laws? Illusion if imaginary and false sense of appreciation ?
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree, what I am trying to express all along is Shall we not seek Wisdom to beat the illusion that our lives suffering in this world, so as to envision and live through the reality the worlds were created with and elevate ourselves into the world next as shaidis.
What is a "shaidis"? I agree that wee seek wisdom, but where it seems you and I differ is that you disregard knowledge. The God tells us to say "increase my knowledge", but I have not heard you explain this part in connection with your position.
Allah says this world and the skies and everything in between were not created in vain; but our ways of life with our knowledge gained is a test and an illusion.
This illusory life is a test, yes, but we start pasing the test only when we aquire knowledge, just like a test in this world, we have to aquire knowledge until we get wisdom. The God says the human was created weak, we have to use knowledge until we are strong.
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the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.Can illusion have the Laws? Illusion if imaginary and false sense of appreciation ?
I did not understand the second part, but YES, the God's mercy is in creating this illusion with LAWS so we can find our way. We must remain balanced. Although this is an illusion, we must work within it, until we return (our consciousness) back to the God.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
Your point is?
Next time you have a dream where you "see" things and "touch" things, think about how that is happening. Then when you wake up, tell me how that is any different.
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Peace be upon you,
Thanks shuaib, but what does brother idolfree say to this ? Did Allah create illusion ? Or the Truth ?
(632) The life of this world is no more than illusion and vanity, while the abode of the Hereafter is far better for the righteous. Do you not understand?
Lets talk science, which should not be seperate from "religion". When you look at your "solid" hand, is it real, or the illusion made by millions of particles?
I would say that THIS FACT is the TRUTH(haqq), which the God created.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
When will you adress the instruiction for us to SAY"My lord increase my KNOWLEDGE" ?
