Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Peace be upon you Zlatan,
p.s.
and you are well right about kyle and making points to the audience about his butchering of logic and the language..."When it suits his needs, he eliminates the obvious meanings of the word " and "At his whim, he makes the meanings so specific that you can't even apply the word as it was meant... and at his whim he makes the meaning sooooo expansive that he draws random connections to any concept he wishes
but, as you have similarly noticed, what may be even more shocking from his attitude is that the others are taking him seriously....
This is the second time you have given an emotional response regarding my position, yet you are not bringing any evidence to refute my positions. Peace.
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Peace be upon you Zlatan and Shuiab,
Can I hear both of your understandings regarding Isa, son of Mariam. Let me know if it is a literal story, or symbolic, and if symbolic, what is the symbolism dealing with.
Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish. Do you realize that the material world is an illusion? Do you realize that all you hear , see, taste , touch and smell are but impulses? A life of perceptions? But instead you sit here and ridicule serious study and offer no position of your own (that is logical and agrees with thge context).
Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it. Please refrain from the same comments made by those without faith all throughout history such as "He's crazy", "the crazy people follow his idea" "etc".
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idolfree, we need both the worlds and those who pray for both the worlds are seeking the best is what Allah says. Totally being esotric is suggesting that the heavenly life is not at all possible with our human image and form and shape and state fo mind- all together.
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salam idolfree,
Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it.
amazing that you say this right after we are clearly pointing out your mistakes.
Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish.
Didn't we already have an extensive discussion that went no where, ending at the point where you refused to accept the meaning of 22, and created your own meaning using faulty Arabic grammar ? Go back and check the thread.
Do you realize that the material world is an illusion?
Amazing, did you think of that all by yourself? This is an ancient theory, pervasive amongst the Greeks and nowadays amongst Hindus and Buddhists.
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
The basic meaning of HAQQ is something that is verfiable true and concrete, established. Another understanding of haqq is REALITY.
Of course, we perceive this reality through our senses which are nothing more than electrical impulses in our brain... but that does not make the universe a dream... any more than a sonar detection of a missile makes the missiles a dream... the sonar screen is a tool for the detection of the real missiles, and our senses are a detection tool for the real universe.
I'm sure you'll be ready again with some wacked out interpretations so really, I'm not interested. I just make it a point to point out your major distortions of what Islam is about.. but I really dont intend to have a discussion with you, because as I have said before
"when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt."
When it suits your needs, you eliminate the obvious meanings of words, and when it suits your needs, you generalize the meanings of words to the extent that you can connect random concepts together.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree, we need both the worlds and those who pray for both the worlds are seeking the best is what Allah says. Totally being esotric is suggesting that the heavenly life is not at all possible with our human image and form and shape and state fo mind- all together.
I have no where suggested that we should not be balanced, in fact, I have been discussing with you the difference between knowlede (EXternal) and Wisdom(INternal). It is you who has been saying we should reject the EXTernal, which is KNOwledge. I am saying we need a balance of both, yet the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.
Can someone give me a clear example of of a concept that I take as SYmbolic, that others see as literal so we might discuss it, rather than the continuos statements of disagreement without any examples.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
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Please, either of you, point out clearly my mistakes so that we can enter discussion about it.amazing that you say this right after we are clearly pointing out your mistakes.
Which are?
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Shuiab, I would like to continue discussing "Kitaab" when ever you are ready, since you think the understanding of the ONE WORD (UNIVERSE) is foolish.Didn't we already have an extensive discussion that went no where, ending at the point where you refused to accept the meaning of 22, and created your own meaning using faulty Arabic grammar ? Go back and check the thread.
What is a word? It is a sound that mankind has given meaning to. Let me repeat that, a word is a sound that mankind has given meaning to. So the God says When He decides on a matter, He says "BE" and it is. This means that ALL THINGS come from sound. What does sound come from? Vibration. DO all things vibrate? Yes. Are all things SOUND? Yes.
WHat is a book? A collection of "words/sounds". What is the UNI(one) Verse(word/sound)?
You see, it is all logically connected. And guidance is found in this logical connection, without doubt.
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Do you realize that the material world is an illusion?Amazing, did you think of that all by yourself? This is an ancient theory, pervasive amongst the Greeks and nowadays amongst Hindus and Buddhists.
The Greeks learned it from the Egyptians, but whatever the case, this reading confirms that which came before.
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
The basic meaning of HAQQ is something that is verfiable true and concrete, established. Another understanding of haqq is REALITY.
Of course, we perceive this reality through our senses which are nothing more than electrical impulses in our brain... but that does not make the universe a dream... any more than a sonar detection of a missile makes the missiles a dream... the sonar screen is a tool for the detection of the real missiles, and our senses are a detection tool for the real universe.
But who was the person who went BEYOND thier senses to know that the missle or its sonar detection was a real material? Please do not confuse reality with materiality.
I'm sure you'll be ready again with some wacked out interpretations so really, I'm not interested. I just make it a point to point out your major distortions of what Islam is about.. but I really dont intend to have a discussion with you, because as I have said before
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"when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt."When it suits your needs, you eliminate the obvious meanings of words, and when it suits your needs, you generalize the meanings of words to the extent that you can connect random concepts together.
Yet you still cannot show any proof, or give anyone a working system based on the wisdom in the reading to guide anyones life. Peace to you.
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idolfree, what I am trying to express all along is Shall we not seek Wisdom to beat the illusion that our lives suffering in this world, so as to envision and live through the reality the worlds were created with and elevate ourselves into the world next as shaidis. Allah says this world and the skies and everything in between were not created in vain; but our ways of life with our knowledge gained is a test and an illusion.
the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.
Can illusion have the Laws? Illusion if imaginary and false sense of appreciation ?
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree, what I am trying to express all along is Shall we not seek Wisdom to beat the illusion that our lives suffering in this world, so as to envision and live through the reality the worlds were created with and elevate ourselves into the world next as shaidis.
What is a "shaidis"? I agree that wee seek wisdom, but where it seems you and I differ is that you disregard knowledge. The God tells us to say "increase my knowledge", but I have not heard you explain this part in connection with your position.
Allah says this world and the skies and everything in between were not created in vain; but our ways of life with our knowledge gained is a test and an illusion.
This illusory life is a test, yes, but we start pasing the test only when we aquire knowledge, just like a test in this world, we have to aquire knowledge until we get wisdom. The God says the human was created weak, we have to use knowledge until we are strong.
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the EXTERNAL, in reality , is in illusion, but this illusion is part of our test, so we work with its laws, not against them.Can illusion have the Laws? Illusion if imaginary and false sense of appreciation ?
I did not understand the second part, but YES, the God's mercy is in creating this illusion with LAWS so we can find our way. We must remain balanced. Although this is an illusion, we must work within it, until we return (our consciousness) back to the God.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
- Allah created the skies and the earth in truth (HAQQ). Truly in that is a Sign for those who believe.
Your point is?
Next time you have a dream where you "see" things and "touch" things, think about how that is happening. Then when you wake up, tell me how that is any different.
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Peace be upon you,
Thanks shuaib, but what does brother idolfree say to this ? Did Allah create illusion ? Or the Truth ?
(632) The life of this world is no more than illusion and vanity, while the abode of the Hereafter is far better for the righteous. Do you not understand?
Lets talk science, which should not be seperate from "religion". When you look at your "solid" hand, is it real, or the illusion made by millions of particles?
I would say that THIS FACT is the TRUTH(haqq), which the God created.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
When will you adress the instruiction for us to SAY"My lord increase my KNOWLEDGE" ?
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(632) The life of this world is no more than illusion and vanity, while the abode of the Hereafter is far better for the righteous. Do you not understand?
Lets talk science, which should not be seperate from "religion". When you look at your "solid" hand, is it real, or the illusion made by millions of particles? I would say that THIS FACT is the TRUTH(haqq), which the God created.
First of all there is no religion. Only Two Paths are existing 1. The right and 2 The wrong.
So if science is right or wrong is what we shall see. Right is absolute; wrong is relative and ever changing see-saw play. Science belongs to the second category. Coming to the millions of particles and the hand.
The "hand" is Right. It has purpose - its existence coming from the all encompasing 'Faith' emanating from one's soul.
And the science is wrong - 'millions of particles theory' that you speak of is mere vanity and illusion until it shapes up into useful forms and activity. We can even go further backwards and say the particles again are originated from gaseous masses and other invisible substances and so on. The scientific knowledge is a see-saw concept, a vain illusion before THE FAITH - i.e, getting at the wisdom, the absolute reality.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
When will you adress the instruiction for us to SAY "My lord increase my KNOWLEDGE" ?
First let us define the term in our respective ideology
Knolwedge is Seeing, hearing and writing and speaking! D
Its Use Be dependant on each other, a disgrace that it brings on! ( -
Peace be upon you Doc,
First let us define the term in our respective ideology
Knolwedge is Seeing, hearing and writing and speaking!
Its Use Be dependant on each other, a disgrace that it brings on!Okay, so now tell us why the God tells us to SAY "My Lord, increase my knowledge".
With the negativity you have associated with knowledge, why does the God tell us to seek increase in it? Help me understand.
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Peace be upon you Doc,
Okay, so now tell us why the God tells us to SAY "My Lord, increase my knowledge".With the negativity you have associated with knowledge, why does the God tell us to seek increase in it? Help me understand.
Your translation of ILM is knowledge, whereas the meaning is "ability to understand the TRUTH". When you seek knowledge from Allah, it means you want the truth from allah/the absolute understanding/the Wisdom.
"O Lord Increase my ability to understand the Truth"
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you Doc,
Okay, so now tell us why the God tells us to SAY "My Lord, increase my knowledge".With the negativity you have associated with knowledge, why does the God tell us to seek increase in it? Help me understand.
Doctor
Your translation of ILM is knowledge, whereas the meaning is "ability to understand the TRUTH". When you seek knowledge from Allah, it means you want the truth from allah/the absolute understanding/the Wisdom."O Lord Increase my ability to understand the Truth"
You understand TRUTH by knowing, and proper application of that KNOWING is Wisdom.
Doctor, it appears that you have taken on Man's corruption of the word "KNOWledge" as your correct definition. The better metod would be to bring back the correct understanding of that word, then you will remove the difficulty you have in translating "Ilm" to Knowledge.