Why did God reveal the Quran through a messenger?

StopS

I am not sure who the transator is, but this is a horrible translation (for example the words Message and apostle are not there).
Furthermore there is no Quran/Kitaab mentioned but QAWL (6940).
Furthermore there is no Mohammed or what ever name mentioned.
Furthermore it is not said what kind of creature.

Only thing we know is The speech (qawl) is from a honorable messenger (rasulin karimin).
If you want to make "qawl"=Quran and "honorable messenger" = Muhammed, then go ahead, just now that that is not what The Quran says. The Quran is exact in its wording, what you invent with it is not part of The Quran, but your own fantasy.

So according to you Muhammad was not the recipient of the initial Koran? I invented something? If I quote a translation it does not mean I am inventing this. Please don't spread lies about me, ok?

hypno if I am not wrong you said 7 billion books. let me recheck... yup you said 7 billion books.

It's content is for every one different because we are all different.
The content of the Quran is in the language of your heart/mind. The text is in arabic (the language) but it's content is not.
If you think an arab can understand the language of The Quran better then someone who doesn't speak a word arabic because of the language then you are totally wrong.
What alternative??? Who said I like your alternative? Why yours and not mine?
How we have it that is it. You can also complain why we are made from flesh and blood why not iron. But I am sure if there is a God and He choose to do it in the way He did it, then I am sure He knows better then you and me how to do it, no?

And if my answer didn't satisfy you then you have to ask Him why He did it in the way He did it. I am sure if you believe in Him He wil tell you why. He always answers my questions.

You are misrepresenting what I am saying again. If you can't understand a question or a statement, why don't you ask? Especially if I have corrected you before.
I must be different from you. My heart does not speak any language. And I need to understand the language before I understand what is written in that language.

The alternatives I have specified I don't know how many times. I am not complaining, I am asking. The little squiggly things at the end of my sentences denote a question, not a statement and not a complaint.

here you are
http//www.searchtruth.com/quran_reading/quran.html?page=1&page_size=1&page_style=1
whenever you have internet u can acces it. And I recommend also to buy a paper copy for the moments you have no internet.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. The link you provide shows me a human made computer generated image of something. Do you know the difference between an original and a digital copy in the form of a photo? http//foucault.info/documents/foucault.thisIsNotaPipe.en.html

I asked
Why not set the tablets, the originals, where humans will have access to them forever?

I don't understand. I thought I was clear.

Shows how wrong you can be.

Not sure what you mean. You want the text/message of The Quran coded in your brains or what? Yes.
No.

Oh boy, someone give me patience.....

can you mark for me in RED please where you see the world "prayer", thanks.

Are you talking about the qibla or the alcohol? I will assume you are referring to the prayer-direction. If I am wrong, please correct me.

The answer to the problem is found on the pages of free-minds.org. Somehow, I expected you to know the pages http//www.free-minds.org/pilgrimage-lost-legacy-abraham

The mystery further deepens when we look to Islamic history itself and the claim that they (the Muslims) used to assemble towards Jerusalem for a number of years and then the focal point (Qibla) was changed to Mecca. Until today, the Muslims refer to Jerusalem as the ?first of the two Qiblas? (Uwla Al-Qiblatain).

So if you are not so narrow minded, you can substitute pray towards with assemble towards.

red you are right. my fault. Normally I find why questions very hard to answer. I mean questions why did God not give us wings or 6 eyes. But I think I can answer your why question.
The why is because we are not ready for everything. The Quran will be revealed to us bit by bit, because we are not ready for the things we don't understand now.

green really? Who said so?

Oooh, there is a mystery. And will my head explode if I learn something too soon? Oh please, can you can the juvenile approach?

did you read what I wrote or not? If you understod what I said then you would have the answer for your why.
hint first part of chapter 2

So you have no clue.

it's the way how you ask them, not the questions.

Ah, it's the way I put one word behind the other. Truly a revelation!

you should take a closer look at the answers.
yes your question where regarding The Quran but you state "facts" in your questions which are not from The Quran, thus in here (this forum) they make no sense.

Gabriel is an angel hmm
from where did you get this? btw if you just looked a bit further then you would have known that he is not.
)

the reason I did not answer is because

I am still not 100% confident with my understanding, so till it's not 100% clear to me, I can't answer yet.
You can try to research this yourself, I think you will learn more from this then from anyone else.
I am lazy
I find it difficult to express myself in english.

RED I wonder what you deleted as I only said something similair to what you said in the red )
Anyway sorry for my rude language.

BLUE And now?

Salaam,
Bender

ps I appreciate it that you took time to find the verses from The Quran to support your claims handshake

I give up. This is simply too difficult to repeat and explain the same thing over and over.

Thank you for trying.

Bender

So according to you Muhammad was not the recipient of the initial Koran? I invented something? If I quote a translation it does not mean I am inventing this. Please don't spread lies about me, ok?

Salaam,

Is this from you or from a translator
This to me says one person, Muhammad received the contents and spread it to his followers.
if this is from the the translator then I am sorry to spread lies about you.

You are misrepresenting what I am saying again. If you can't understand a question or a statement, why don't you ask? Especially if I have corrected you before.
I must be different from you. My heart does not speak any language. And I need to understand the language before I understand what is written in that language.

The alternatives I have specified I don't know how many times. I am not complaining, I am asking. The little squiggly things at the end of my sentences denote a question, not a statement and not a complaint.

I do not misinterpret what you are saying, you just don't understand what I am saying.
And I knew that you would not understand )

red I know you were asking, but there is a complaining in your questions. You are not satisfied how it is now, so you ask absurd questions about how you think it should have been with false statements in your questions and then ask why it did not go the way you wanted it to be.

What is the purpose of your questions? How we have it now that's it, so what is it exactly that you want to know?

And thank you very much for correcting me over and over again I am now a lot wiser then before our conversation, thank you handshake

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. The link you provide shows me a human made computer generated image of something. Do you know the difference between an original and a digital copy in the form of a photo? http//foucault.info/documents/foucault.thisIsNotaPipe.en.html

yes
It seems you have absolutely no clue, you only don't know it.
Do you know what "Kitaab" and "Quran" means? If you don't, please study this first.
There are online sites with a Quran with nice search functions, type in the words and check the verses where those words are used.
After you have studied this then you can show me again a nice picture of a pipe.

I asked
Why not set the tablets, the originals, where humans will have access to them forever?

What orginal tablets are you talking about? Before you answer please recheck your sources, saves me time to correct you.

Shows how wrong you can be.

Whatever makes you happy.

It seems you are totally lost, you have absolutely no clue, only you don't know this.
I suggest that you take some time to study, it will God willing make you understand my answer.
by study I mean study The Quran not islam websites/Ibn Kathir/freeminds articles etc.

Oh boy, someone give me patience.....

What did I do wrong )

Are you talking about the qibla or the alcohol? I will assume you are referring to the prayer-direction. If I am wrong, please correct me.

The answer to the problem is found on the pages of free-minds.org. Somehow, I expected you to know the pages http//www.free-minds.org/pilgrimage-lost-legacy-abraham

The mystery further deepens when we look to Islamic history itself and the claim that they (the Muslims) used to assemble towards Jerusalem for a number of years and then the focal point (Qibla) was changed to Mecca. Until today, the Muslims refer to Jerusalem as the ?first of the two Qiblas? (Uwla Al-Qiblatain).

You still don't get it. A freeminds article is not The Quran. There is no mention of Jerusalem, there is no mention of Mecca, there is no mention of prayer.

So if you are not so narrow minded, you can substitute pray towards with assemble towards.

Was it changed? before you answer please recheck the verses, it will save me from correcting you again.

Oooh, there is a mystery. And will my head explode if I learn something too soon? Oh please, can you can the juvenile approach?

No your head will not explode, but your head/heart will not accept. It's to much for you to handle. And you are proving it right now, but you don't notice this. But God willing you will understand this some time later.

So you have no clue.

If I direct you to the place where you can find your answer does it means I have no clue hmm

Ah, it's the way I put one word behind the other. Truly a revelation!

yup yes
I am glad I learned you something new )

I give up. This is simply too difficult to repeat and explain the same thing over and over.

Thank you for trying.

You are welcome handshake

next time I will try to let you understand that 2+2=5
I hope I will have patience with you and I hope I will be able to repeat my claim over and over again again till you understand it.

Salaam and take care,
Bender

ps from the way you put one word behind the other I understand that you got a little bit to emotional.
Chill, there is no need to get emotional, we are only discussing.

StopS

Is this from you or from a translator
This to me says one person, Muhammad received the contents and spread it to his followers.
if this is from the the translator then I am sorry to spread lies about you.

Why does it have to be so complicated?

What was the name of the human being who received the Koran contents sentence by sentence? What I understand Muhammad.
Who told other humans about this? What I understand Muhammad.
In other words who spread the Koran to other people?

Do you have a different understanding how the Koran started on Earth? Via UPS maybe?

I do not misinterpret what you are saying, you just don't understand what I am saying.
And I knew that you would not understand )

red I know you were asking, but there is a complaining in your questions. You are not satisfied how it is now, so you ask absurd questions about how you think it should have been with false statements in your questions and then ask why it did not go the way you wanted it to be.

What is the purpose of your questions? How we have it now that's it, so what is it exactly that you want to know?

And thank you very much for correcting me over and over again I am now a lot wiser then before our conversation, thank you handshake

What is the title of this thread and the topic at hand?
THAT is what I am asking.

I am asking a question about the process and you are answering something about the contents. What about this is not misrepresentation? If I tell you something is wrong with your answer and your understanding, why don't you go "hold on, maybe I should ask whether I am understanding the question the right way"?

It seems you have absolutely no clue, you only don't know it.
Do you know what "Kitaab" and "Quran" means? If you don't, please study this first.
There are online sites with a Quran with nice search functions, type in the words and check the verses where those words are used.
After you have studied this then you can show me again a nice picture of a pipe.

My goodness, you really have no idea what I am talking about, what I am asking and still think you can provide an answer.

What orginal tablets are you talking about? Before you answer please recheck your sources, saves me time to correct you.

7145 And We wrote for him on the tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation for all things

I don't even know why I tried to explain all this again, when I know you will not be able to comprehend it, so I'll just drop it - again.

mmkhan

Why does it have to be so complicated?

What was the name of the human being who received the Koran contents sentence by sentence? What I understand Muhammad.
Who told other humans about this? What I understand Muhammad.
In other words who spread the Koran to other people?

Salaam StopS,

Just to stop complications are we allowed to conclude anything? hmm I don't think so.

Brother, how do you concluded the answers you gave above ? I mean, any of the aayaats of alQuraan supports your conclusion? Please share those aayaats with me so that it may help me understand better.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Bender

Why does it have to be so complicated?

What was the name of the human being who received the Koran contents sentence by sentence? What I understand Muhammad.
Who told other humans about this? What I understand Muhammad.
In other words who spread the Koran to other people?

Salaam,

You bring in stuff into the discussion which I can't find back in The Quran and you want to discuss it as it is from The Quran. So who is the one who is making things complicated?

From where did you learn this? Can you please give me supporting verses from The Quran please. (Bukhari or Ibn Kathir or Freeminds articles or wikipedia etc etc etc is NOT The Quran.
From where did you learn this? Can you please give me supporting verses from The Quran please. (Bukhari or Ibn Kathir or Freeminds articles or wikipedia etc etc etc is NOT The Quran.
I don't know, I can't find a clear answer from The verses of The Quran. If you can then please share it with us.

Do you have a different understanding how the Koran started on Earth? Via UPS maybe?

Sure I have an understanding but I am not sure about it.

red you have great sense of humor

What is the title of this thread and the topic at hand?
THAT is what I am asking.

You forgot your own questions in your first post in this topic???

I am asking a question about the process and you are answering something about the contents. What about this is not misrepresentation? If I tell you something is wrong with your answer and your understanding, why don't you go "hold on, maybe I should ask whether I am understanding the question the right way"?

What I am trying to tell from the beginning but what you don't seem to understand is that your orginal questions DON'T make sense.

In the mean time you are hopefully now a bit wiser then in your first post in this topic. So I have a question for you now. If you had the knowledge you have now would you ask again exactly the same questions? If you don't remember your questions, here they are again

Why indeed was anything transmitted by a human, a single human?
Why not "send down" 7 billion books, which are capable of automatically showing the text the reader understands, in his native language?
Why not set the golden tablets, the originals, into the desert next to Mecca?
Why not transmit the contents telepathically so everyone understands it without having to read or rely on translations and error-prone interpretations by humans?
Why not hard-wire it into humans like every human understand a smile?
Why indeed first dictate a book which was written trillions of years earlier commanding a praying direction or allowing alcohol and only when this proves to be a problem change the contents?
Why include parts which humans don't understand?
Why create humans 200,000 years ago and only start supplying guidance very recently?

My goodness, you really have no idea what I am talking about, what I am asking and still think you can provide an answer.
7145 And We wrote for him on the tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation for all things

Ah I see, you are talking about the tablets of Musa (Moses). I thought we were discussing The Quran, unless ofcourse you think that The Tablets of Musa is The Quran. So please clarify, that makes it easier for discussion.

I don't even know why I tried to explain all this again, when I know you will not be able to comprehend it, so I'll just drop it - again.

The reason is because you claimed things in your questions. If I ask "why is the water on Mars always 30 degrees", then I first have to proof that there is water on Mars and if there is water that it's always 30 degrees, otherwise I did not ask a legitimate question.
So before you can't proof your claims in your questions, your questions don't make sense. I hope you understand this, and I hope that next time you will recheck your questions before you ask.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

Salaam StopS,

Just to stop complications are we allowed to conclude anything? hmm I don't think so.

Brother, how do you concluded the answers you gave above ? I mean, any of the aayaats of alQuraan supports your conclusion? Please share those aayaats with me so that it may help me understand better.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Salaam bro,

I always find it funny that people who say they don't believe in Allah use hadiths as their evidence to support their claims, but only those hadiths they need at the time.

One time on a forum, there was a woman who was so angry that Mohammed married a little girl. So I asked her from where she got this information. She proudly showed me some sahih hadiths. When I said to her that if she believed Mohammed married a little girl she also had to believe that Mohammed was a messenger of God, as I showed her from the same source a hadith where it says Mohammed was a messenger of God. But she refused to believe in that hadith, she only wanted to believe in little girl marriage hadiths hmm

Salaam,
Bender

StopS

Brother, how do you concluded the answers you gave above ? I mean, any of the aayaats of alQuraan supports your conclusion?

It is my understanding and what I am asking whether I am right.
If I am right, I am sure you can provide equivalent sentences from the Koran - and if I am wrong also, I would imagine. I am sure you know the Koran better than me.

mmkhan

It is my understanding and what I am asking whether I am right.
If I am right, I am sure you can provide equivalent sentences from the Koran - and if I am wrong also, I would imagine. I am sure you know the Koran better than me.

As per my knowledge I don't find your conclusions right, because it is not supported by alQuraan.

May God bless you,
mmKhan

StopS

Salaam,

You bring in stuff into the discussion which I can't find back in The Quran and you want to discuss it as it is from The Quran. So who is the one who is making things complicated?

From where did you learn this? Can you please give me supporting verses from The Quran please. (Bukhari or Ibn Kathir or Freeminds articles or wikipedia etc etc etc is NOT The Quran.
From where did you learn this? Can you please give me supporting verses from The Quran please. (Bukhari or Ibn Kathir or Freeminds articles or wikipedia etc etc etc is NOT The Quran.
I don't know, I can't find a clear answer from The verses of The Quran. If you can then please share it with us.
Sure I have an understanding but I am not sure about it.

I am asking a question. If you know the answer, why not simply tell me, instead of making thus unnecessarily complicated by copy/pasting something here and only then do you clarify the situation?
I read 24, which says And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee... or 5310 And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed.
Then I see 3144 Muhammad is but a messenger
and I add this together to maybe say Muhammad is the prophet of Allah and he is the one who received the Koran via Gabriel.

You have "an understanding" but it's a secret?

What I am trying to tell from the beginning but what you don't seem to understand is that your orginal questions DON'T make sense.

In the mean time you are hopefully now a bit wiser then in your first post in this topic. So I have a question for you now. If you had the knowledge you have now would you ask again exactly the same questions? If you don't remember your questions, here they are again

Why indeed was anything transmitted by a human, a single human?
Why not "send down" 7 billion books, which are capable of automatically showing the text the reader understands, in his native language?
Why not set the golden tablets, the originals, into the desert next to Mecca?
Why not transmit the contents telepathically so everyone understands it without having to read or rely on translations and error-prone interpretations by humans?
Why not hard-wire it into humans like every human understand a smile?
Why indeed first dictate a book which was written trillions of years earlier commanding a praying direction or allowing alcohol and only when this proves to be a problem change the contents?
Why include parts which humans don't understand?
Why create humans 200,000 years ago and only start supplying guidance very recently?

Ah I see, you are talking about the tablets of Musa (Moses). I thought we were discussing The Quran, unless ofcourse you think that The Tablets of Musa is The Quran. So please clarify, that makes it easier for discussion.
The reason is because you claimed things in your questions. If I ask "why is the water on Mars always 30 degrees", then I first have to proof that there is water on Mars and if there is water that it's always 30 degrees, otherwise I did not ask a legitimate question.
So before you can't proof your claims in your questions, your questions don't make sense. I hope you understand this, and I hope that next time you will recheck your questions before you ask.

Salaam,
Bender

No, we are NOT talking about Moses. At least I am not. I would imagine 251 ff mentions Moses, as do ~130 others. If there is no original of the Koran, then why not say so?

Your analogy is invalid. You are assuming Mars exists. If you can manage to let go of all preconceptions you will understand my questions.
If there are no originals for the Koran then I have to retract my3rd question, not because it is nonsensical, but because I have asked it due to a misconception of what you, a Muslim, believe as opposed to what another person, a Muslim, told me.

Having said that what is your definition of a Muslim? It could be that I have another generalisation and misconception there as well.

StopS

As per my knowledge I don't find your conclusions right, because it is not supported by alQuraan.

May God bless you,
mmKhan

Thank you for your opinion.

Now, what according to you, led to the existence of the Koran? Do you have an opinion on the process how the Koran came about and what led to the book we know as the Koran today?
Thanks.

mmkhan

Thank you for your opinion.

You are welcome bro.

Oh! I didn't know that you are not a Muslim, I thought otherwise, sorry.

Now, what according to you, led to the existence of the Koran?

alQuraan is sent down to guide all humans as per 2185

Do you have an opinion on the process how the Koran came about and what led to the book we know as the Koran today?
Thanks.

My personal opinion on process of sending down the alQuraan is same as it was given to Musa, i.e., all together written on tablets as per 7144-145. May be this book that we know as alQuraan was given to Musa, not sure though.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

StopS

You are welcome bro.

Oh! I didn't know that you are not a Muslim, I thought otherwise, sorry.

No, not at all, maybe I should have made it more clear.

alQuraan is sent down to guide all humans as per 2185
My personal opinion on process of sending down the alQuraan is same as it was given to Musa, i.e., all together written on tablets as per 7144-145. May be this book that we know as alQuraan was given to Musa, not sure though.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Hey, interesting idea! I have honestly never thought of that option.

Is this the possible process Moses is given the texts, which unfortunately have not survived, and led to the 2 Bibles and then, finally, to the Koran?
But who collected the contents?

mmkhan

No, not at all, maybe I should have made it more clear.

You are a Muslim? Oh! I am sorry, please forgive me.

Hey, interesting idea! I have honestly never thought of that option.

Is this the possible process Moses is given the texts, which unfortunately have not survived, and led to the 2 Bibles and then, finally, to the Koran?
But who collected the contents?

To know why I said that, please check this and this carefully. Hope this may help you, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

StopS

You are a Muslim? Oh! I am sorry, please forgive me.

Ooops, hahaha, what a mess. My reaction of "not at all" was directed at your apology. Let me be precise I am non-Muslim.

To know why I said that, please check this and this carefully. Hope this may help you, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Wow! I find that highly potent and it could potentially change the entire concept of the perception of Islam. But I must admit that I am starting to enjoy the unvarying, focused and total commitment to a Koran only approach.
I admit I have not thought this through, so I am as yet unable to properly slot this idea into history and the grand picture, but I'll get the hang of it.
Thank you for your very supportive and understanding help.

mmkhan

Ooops, hahaha, what a mess. My reaction of "not at all" was directed at your apology. Let me be precise I am non-Muslim.

Wow! I find that highly potent and it could potentially change the entire concept of the perception of Islam. But I must admit that I am starting to enjoy the unvarying, focused and total commitment to a Koran only approach.
I admit I have not thought this through, so I am as yet unable to properly slot this idea into history and the grand picture, but I'll get the hang of it.
Thank you for your very supportive and understanding help.

Red Now I am not gonna say anything on this, I will be -X

You are very welcome, and please do remember that alQuraan is the Book that stands alone without the need of any hadith or history. It explains itself in many many different ways. Please click here to see an example if you are interested. )

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Bender

I am asking a question. If you know the answer, why not simply tell me, instead of making thus unnecessarily complicated by copy/pasting something here and only then do you clarify the situation?

Salaam,

D Well everyone has his way of bringing over the message. Maybe my way is bad and I have to correct it, thanks for pointing it out.

I read 24, which says And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee... or 5310 And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed.
Then I see 3144 Muhammad is but a messenger
and I add this together to maybe say Muhammad is the prophet of Allah and he is the one who received the Koran via Gabriel.

Ok thanks for your understanding based on AlQuran handshake
The only problem is that there is no mention of Mohammed in 24 and 5310. So understanding that it is Mohammed, is only a guess based on hadith and other sources outside The Quran and we are not allowed to take anything as source to understand The Quran besides The Quran. So if we don't use the hadiths and other sources as commanded in The Quran then it is not proven that it's talking about Mohammed. At least I could not proof it, if someone else can proof it, then I really like to see the Quranic evidence. Besides this, if we understand those verses as if they are for Mohammed then they will contradict many many things in The Quran. Or at least I see them as contradictions.

btw prophet of Allah does not exist only messenger of Allah.

You have "an understanding" but it's a secret?

No not a secret, but I am not sure about it. I can not proof it for myself with 100% certainty, so I prefer to wait to post my understanding till I'm 100% confident about it.

No, we are NOT talking about Moses. At least I am not. I would imagine 251 ff mentions Moses, as do ~130 others. If there is no original of the Koran, then why not say so?

Well if we search for what Quran means then it can be concluded with verses from The Quran that it means The Recite/Recital or something very close to it. Thus something people can HEAR. So Quran is per definition not written text, but spoken speach. But I agree that some point in time we had also the first text version, probably on the same time. But when that happen, or who the one it was or who got it first, or who wrote it first, I have no idea.

Your analogy is invalid. You are assuming Mars exists.

Mars can be seen with a telescope. Or at least we see something that we named Mars.

If you can manage to let go of all preconceptions you will understand my questions.
If there are no originals for the Koran then I have to retract my3rd question, not because it is nonsensical, but because I have asked it due to a misconception of what you, a Muslim, believe as opposed to what another person, a Muslim, told me.

Having said that what is your definition of a Muslim? It could be that I have another generalisation and misconception there as well.

Well I agree there must have been an orginal Quran (the first written and spoken one) but how/when/who/where, I have no clear evidence from The Quran.

Red as per my current understanding, muslim is someone who submits himself. From The Quran we learn that we can be muslim to different things, depends on the subject. We try to be muslims to The God of heavens and earth.

Salaam,
Bender

StopS

Ok thanks for your understanding based on AlQuran handshake
The only problem is that there is no mention of Mohammed in 24 and 5310. So understanding that it is Mohammed, is only a guess based on hadith and other sources outside The Quran and we are not allowed to take anything as source to understand The Quran besides The Quran. So if we don't use the hadiths and other sources as commanded in The Quran then it is not proven that it's talking about Mohammed. At least I could not proof it, if someone else can proof it, then I really like to see the Quranic evidence. Besides this, if we understand those verses as if they are for Mohammed then they will contradict many many things in The Quran. Or at least I see them as contradictions.

I have not used anything but the Koran to my knowledge. I have some information which I have learnt is erroneous, but I have not once quoted any hadith or saying.

I have asked you nicely not to just say this is wrong - and then leave it, but you are doing it again. I asked you what the process is and never received a reply.

So a person called Muhammad is mentioned in the Koran I think 4 times. Is he a messenger or what is he according to your understanding? Is it only the meaning of "anointed one"?

No not a secret, but I am not sure about it. I can not proof it for myself with 100% certainty, so I prefer to wait to post my understanding till I'm 100% confident about it.

ok

Well if we search for what Quran means then it can be concluded with verses from The Quran that it means The Recite/Recital or something very close to it. Thus something people can HEAR. So Quran is per definition not written text, but spoken speach. But I agree that some point in time we had also the first text version, probably on the same time. But when that happen, or who the one it was or who got it first, or who wrote it first, I have no idea.

Take a sentence and whisper it to the person on the left in the front row in a mosque and ask him to whisper this to his neighbour.
Now write the same sentence on a piece of paper and give it the person on the left of the last row and ask him to show it to his neighbour who has to copy it.
And so on.
What do you get when you receive the sentence from the people in the front and last row on the right? I don't need to specify it, because you know what will happen and why it is essential to have written down texts.

Mars can be seen with a telescope. Or at least we see something that we named Mars.

Your analogy was
"why is the water on Mars always 30 degrees"
and my point is that if you want to assign something to an object, this very object requires proof for its physical existence.
Now you say that Mars can be detected and thus you base a statement on that.
Can you do the same for god? No. So how can you base anything which has not been proven to exist yet?

That's why my original questions are valid - except - yes I accept now that 3 points are over the top

the 1st one is debatable as there is no mention of a single human receiving the Koran in the book.
I also accept that the adjective "golden" was conjecture on my part.
If we don't know when the sentences regarding alcohol were revealed we can't surmise this was when alcohol was still allowed. This causes even more problems without this explanation, but factually, it is unknown.

Well I agree there must have been an orginal Quran (the first written and spoken one) but how/when/who/where, I have no clear evidence from The Quran.

Red as per my current understanding, muslim is someone who submits himself. From The Quran we learn that we can be muslim to different things, depends on the subject. We try to be muslims to The God of heavens and earth.

Salaam,
Bender

OK, I am starting to understand how the consequences are still difficult for me to assess.

So the Koran somehow appeared and a person found it, read it and found it great and more and more people thought the same way and decided to expand their territories, conquering all lands between Spain and India. The coins mentioning someone called Muhammad and the accounts which mention someone called Muhammad more and more were only coincidental and based on a misconception. Is that about right?

Bender

I have not used anything but the Koran to my knowledge. I have some information which I have learnt is erroneous, but I have not once quoted any hadith or saying.

Salaam,

Yes I know, but your understanding was based on them. Probably you didn't know. Anyhow how you understood it, is not from The Quran, at least to my current knowledge it's not.

I have asked you nicely not to just say this is wrong - and then leave it, but you are doing it again. I asked you what the process is and never received a reply.

I answered yes

So a person called Muhammad is mentioned in the Koran I think 4 times. Is he a messenger or what is he according to your understanding? Is it only the meaning of "anointed one"?

He is for sure a messenger, no doubt. But is Muhammed a name? That's the big question. From the way it is written and how it is used in The Quran, it's almost for sure not a name of a person but a probably a title for a person, I am not 100% sure though.

Take a sentence and whisper it to the person on the left in the front row in a mosque and ask him to whisper this to his neighbour.
Now write the same sentence on a piece of paper and give it the person on the left of the last row and ask him to show it to his neighbour who has to copy it.
And so on.
What do you get when you receive the sentence from the people in the front and last row on the right? I don't need to specify it, because you know what will happen and why it is essential to have written down texts.

I said probably they were on the same time, but not sure.

Well the counter proof that your analogy doesn't always apply is The Quran D

Your analogy was
"why is the water on Mars always 30 degrees"
and my point is that if you want to assign something to an object, this very object requires proof for its physical existence.
Now you say that Mars can be detected and thus you base a statement on that.
Can you do the same for god? No. So how can you base anything which has not been proven to exist yet?

We were not discussing the existence of a God. The premise in this forum is that God exists, unless the subject is talking about the existence of a God, which this topic is not.

That's why my original questions are valid - except - yes I accept now that 3 points are over the top

the 1st one is debatable as there is no mention of a single human receiving the Koran in the book.
I also accept that the adjective "golden" was conjecture on my part.
If we don't know when the sentences regarding alcohol were revealed we can't surmise this was when alcohol was still allowed. This causes even more problems without this explanation, but factually, it is unknown.

these were the verses you qouted on alcohol
2219 In both there is great sin, and some benefits for people.
443 Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken
590 Wine, gambling, altars and divining arrows are filth, made up by Satan. Therefore, refrain from it, so that you may be successful.

443 has absolutely nothing to do with alcohol. It doesn't even say drunk.

The word that is translated as wine doesn't mean wine but "things that cover" (physically or mentally), ofcourse wine is included in those things, as it covers the mind.
Also it looks like you think that there was an order of revelation. And probably you also think that 1 verse abrogates the other, this means that a verse is overruled by a other verse. This understanding is not supported by The Quran, evenmore it can be proven that The Quran is against this idea. It was not more than an invention of people, to mislead people.

So the Koran somehow appeared and a person found it, read it and found it great and more and more people thought the same way and decided to expand their territories, conquering all lands between Spain and India. The coins mentioning someone called Muhammad and the accounts which mention someone called Muhammad more and more were only coincidental and based on a misconception. Is that about right?

I am not sure what coins you are talking about.

Anyway I am not into history books and archeology, it has absolutely no value to me.

In the arabian world they can proof for you with their history books and their archeology that Mohammed lived in 600. Here in Holland they did a big research on it, but without the history books of the arabs only with their own history books and archeology and they could not find any indication of an exsistence of a person named Mohammed in the year 600.
So who should I trust?

Salaam,
Bender

StopS

Salaam,
Yes I know, but your understanding was based on them. Probably you didn't know. Anyhow how you understood it, is not from The Quran, at least to my current knowledge it's not.

OK, fine.
It's difficult explaining everything 5 times and still be misunderstood. It's probably my concise formulation.

drfazl

Why indeed was anything transmitted by a human, a single human?
Quran indeed is inscribed in the hearts of every individual as a manual and as a guidance for him to sail through this worldly life with easy and comfortable breeze. This breeze inspired into our sense as revelation which determines our course in righteousness is the 'Furqan'. The hard copy of it is the Quran, we have. We have to test and verify each verse of this Quran if it is truly from Allah in that if it makes sense or complies with the 'Furqan', or our 'Ruh' or our 'Soul'. A human imbibed with this capacity chosen from among the various sections of people in their own languages as messengers. And they are with you now. You will know them as your own household provided you are aware of and conduct yourself in the path of Furqan or in the righteous path your soul guides you.
Why not "send down" 7 billion books, which are capable of automatically showing the text the reader understands, in his native language?
Each one has his own soul or Ruh is proof enough there are 7 billion Furqans having the same sense of truth.
Why not set the golden tablets, the originals, into the desert next to Mecca?
The original golden tablet is your own Ruh or the Soul.
Why not transmit the contents telepathically so everyone understands it without having to read or rely on translations and error-prone interpretations by humans?
Every one has the sense to assess and understand if any utterance makes sense.
Why not hard-wire it into humans like every human understand a smile?
Furqan is hard-wired into the minds of every one that they have the sense to differentiate between good and bad; and righteousness and evil.
Why indeed first dictate a book which was written trillions of years earlier commanding a praying direction or allowing alcohol and only when this proves to be a problem change the contents?
It is not the Furqan what you say but Hadiths, the men written non-sense. From the period of Adam, the Furqan is very sensible and the quranic verse will conform to it. If only an explanation conforms to Furqan, it is right. Your question makes a lot sense; but the answer you got is just the hearsay. Use your Furqan and say now There was never a change in the verses of the Almighty; He never errs; only the narrators of quran have gone astray; they have no right to clarify on Quran when the Furqan was not at all a guide in their entire lives.
Why include parts which humans don't understand?
There is no part in Quran which does not make sense.
Why create humans 200,000 years ago and only start supplying guidance very recently?
There was not a human who did not have a soul to think and act from the time man is born in this world.

Salaam,
fazl