Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Guys as a new page has started, just note that the last reply of the previous page is by md and is very important Dawn, Noon, and Released, I'm mentioning this because it is unlikely that you'd check the previous page as well when you'd receive the notification that there are new replies in this thread and instead assume that the replies on this page are the only ones. Well, it does happen with me a lot ;D
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Peace Fallen Angel. No offence taken - this is a discussion. In response to what you called Point 1, I would find it even more difficult as a woman to accept. At least if he went behind my back I woudn't be hurt. For my husband to tell me, or indeed, his second or third wife that he wants another wife, would break my heart and damage my self-esteem. I would be wondering all the time what they are doing together. Does he love her more than me? Does he do that 'little thing' with her/them?
At this juncture, let me point out 2187
...they are the keepers of your secrets and you are the keeper of their secrets...
So, how is the husband going to divide up the secrets. Is he going to share them with all the wives? What if he divorces one of the wives, what happens to their secrets then? And how does he decide what secret to share with what wife? Should he keep an account detailing to whom he said what?
Hmmm.
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Quote from dawngorgeous on Yesterday at 020112 AM
Peace All,There is another direction we can take. We could come from the point of view of does 43 contradict the Koran's message on adultery. In other words, is there a contradiction? I feel there is. There is a discrepancy. God cannot tell us not to commit adultery and to maintain our chastity then give men permission to have several wives. Islam is also a religion of Peace. Multiple wives does not deliver peace to each wife. I feel there is more to the word marry in 43. More of a caretaking, guardianship role, which would then match up with Mohammad's permission to marry several wives.
I have always wondered what those poor women who were 'married' to Mohammad would do after he had divorced them, because of course, no one is then allowed to 'marry' them.
Another possibility for 43 is that the man may marry up to 4 wives, one after the other? Similar to not being allowed to marry 2 sisters, one after the other?
Just food for thought.
Dawn.
Your idea of a monogamous marriage is supported by several verses in the quran, som of them are following
334 God did not make any man with two hearts in his body
Surah Noor 32. "And marry those among you who are single''
4.1 '' O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one person and He created from it its mate ''
Peace
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Peace All,
There is another direction we can take. We could come from the point of view of does 43 contradict the Koran's message on adultery. In other words, is there a contradiction? I feel there is. There is a discrepancy. God cannot tell us not to commit adultery and to maintain our chastity then give men permission to have several wives. Islam is also a religion of Peace. Multiple wives does not deliver peace to each wife. I feel there is more to the word marry in 43. More of a caretaking, guardianship role, which would then match up with Mohammad's permission to marry several wives.
I have always wondered what those poor women who were 'married' to Mohammad would do after he had divorced them, because of course, no one is then allowed to 'marry' them.
Another possibility for 43 is that the man may marry up to 4 wives, one after the other? Similar to not being allowed to marry 2 sisters, one after the other?
Just food for thought.
Dawn.
"Islam is also a religion of Peace. Multiple wives does not deliver peace to each wife".
The problem is divorce also brings many pain and suffering to families much more than polygamy. Are we to also say divorce is not allowed? This has to be backed with researcha nd not just personal opinions. Many here talk about this as if they are qualified about marriages and social issues that affect marriages and relationships between spouses. Reasearch is needed here.
Not all polygamous marriages are problematic just like many singular marriages are not all problem free.
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Peace Bigmo,
The Koran allows Divorce. That is indisputable. Do you know of a scientific study to-date that has proven that Divorce causes more pain than Polygamy?
None of my opinions have been based on personal opinions. I may mention how I feel, but only in the light of the fact that we are discussing something from the Koran that is not clear. Given that it is not clear, then there is a problem. Given that the Koran is a "book to make us ponder" and that the Koran 'explains itself', then the research we need to do is in the Koran itself.
I think we are making excellent progress. Still no solution, but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day!
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The Koran allows Divorce. That is indisputable. Do you know of a scientific study to-date that has proven that Divorce causes more pain than Polygamy?
divorced is allowed in order to stop pain not to cause pain. If you have an unhappy marriage of course divorce is going to solve that problem. But how is polygamy going to solve an unhappy marriage confused
Peace
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Here are my replies to Bigmo and Dawn, respectively.
My Reply to Bigmo
"Islam is also a religion of Peace. Multiple wives does not deliver peace to each wife".
The problem is divorce also brings many pain and suffering to families much more than polygamy. Are we to also say divorce is not allowed? This has to be backed with researcha nd not just personal opinions. Many here talk about this as if they are qualified about marriages and social issues that affect marriages and relationships between spouses. Reasearch is needed here.
Not all polygamous marriages are problematic just like many singular marriages are not all problem free.
You said exactly what I wanted to say, but in a very efficient manner, thank you
My reply to Dawn
Peace Fallen Angel. No offence taken - this is a discussion. In response to what you called Point 1, I would find it even more difficult as a woman to accept. At least if he went behind my back I woudn't be hurt. For my husband to tell me, or indeed, his second or third wife that he wants another wife, would break my heart and damage my self-esteem. I would be wondering all the time what they are doing together. Does he love her more than me? Does he do that 'little thing' with her/them?
At this juncture, let me point out 2187
...they are the keepers of your secrets and you are the keeper of their secrets...
So, how is the husband going to divide up the secrets. Is he going to share them with all the wives? What if he divorces one of the wives, what happens to their secrets then? And how does he decide what secret to share with what wife? Should he keep an account detailing to whom he said what?
Hmmm.
Salamun Alayki
No offense again D but it seems you didn't really pay attention to what I wanted to deliver through my reply. I have re checked my reply, and nowhere have I stated that the husband has to 'Tell' his first wife. I said, the husband has to 'Ask permission' of first wife. Is there not a difference between asking and telling? The whole basis for that is the injunction of 'Justice'. If the person is 'Asking' the second wife before marrying her, then he automatically has to 'Ask' the first wife for marrying the second as well. You might say, where did I deduce that he's 'Asking'? That is from the part that says 'Marry who have agreed with you from the women', how can you 'Agree' without a mutual consent? Simple as that. So if you don't want your husband to marry another woman, then he can't. And like I said, I have seen cases where both women are perfectly happy.
As for 2187, I have no idea how did you come up with the translation that 'Libas' means 'Keepers of secrets'. The word used there is 'Libas', which means 'Raiment', 'Cloth', 'Covering', 'Garments'. Before I explain Libas, let me show you the complete translation of 2187 and ask you how odd the phrase 'Keepers of secrets' looks when reading the verse as a whole
Permitted to you nights fasts is the Rafath towards/to your women. They are your Libas and you are their Libas. Knows Allah that you used to deceive/betray/acted unfaithfully towards yourselves, so He turned towards you, and He has pardoned you. So now go into them/have relations with them/ touch or contact them and seek what has Allah ordained/prescribed for you
The word Rafath specifically means Sexual conduct, or to lie for sexual relations, sometimes it may have a broader meaning of immodesty , specifically in sexual matters. Hence the phrase would be '...The sexual conduct/Sexual relations towards your women..'. Next comes the Libas part, which I'd skip for the moment, then comes the part where Allah says that the addressee can Bashir with their wives. Bashir is broad term, which has meanings ranging from laying bare one's skin, to rejoicing, to good news, to the finery of a human body, or human being in general, to sexual relations, to going in a woman. Twice has this word been used the form of Bashir in the Quran, both times in this same verse. The verse continues '...And do not Bashir them when you are detaining/retreating yourselves in the Mosques..' In both these instances, at least according to me, dictionaries, corpus etc. It means its meaning of 'Laying one's skin bare' or to be precise 'Having sexual relations'. This is further reenforced by the part 'And seek what Allah has ordained for you', what can be something that He has ordained for us, which we 'Seek'? Especially when the first part of the verse suggests sexual relations (Rafath) and Bashir the verb has a meaning of 'Going in one's wife'? Children! What else can it be? But wait, it doesn't end there, now let me clear up what Libas means, then this verse will become crystal clear. These are two examples of where Libas has been used
O Children of Adam! We have sent down/revealed unto you Libas that conceal your body, and as plumage
Now lets see what your translation would suggest
O Children of Adam! We have sent down/revealed unto you keepers of secret which conceal your body, and as plumage
Here is another verse
And it is He who has made for you the night a Libas and the sleep a rest and Has made the day a rising
In both these instances, taking the true meanings of the word makes sense, that are approved by dictionaries; 'Covering' or 'Garment'. By looking at other instances of the word as well, it is clear that its basic meaning is 'Covering'. As a verb, it can not without further description by supporting words refer to any specific covering. In other words, the meaning of it as a verb is 'Cover', 'Covering' etc. But what is covered HAS to be mentioned in the words that precede it or follow it, as the word itself cannot mean anything except 'Covering'. Since no where in 2187 is there an explanation of 'Covering' as a verb, as it does not specify what it covers, we cannot take it to mean anything but its noun form - which again is also supported by the grammar, that is, that Libas in 2187 is used as a noun - of the meaning 'Cover', 'Garment', or 'Raiment' etc.
Basically what I'm saying is, if Libas was used as a verb, or a noun carrying out a verb, as your translation suggests, then before we deduce anything, an explanation of what is being covered was a must. However, since neither is there an explanation of what it covers, (There is no 'Secrets' in the verse), nor is the word used as verb in anyway, but as a noun, it is not appropriate to translate it as you did. Furthermore, 'Keepers' is not a translation, but 'Cover', 'Garment, 'Cloth', 'Raiment', 'Garb' are its meanings.
Also, please do tell me what you think about the rest of my long reply to you. You only addressed one part out of one of the four parts of my reply to you. Please don't do this, cause by default I get the impression
You didn't read the rest of it
You don't want to reply
You agree with meAs you can see, it leaves one quite confused
Salamun Alayki
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Peace Fallen Angel,
If I don't respond to something it is because I agree with it or I am unable to respond to it. For example, I don't respond very much to the big discussions based on the Arabic language, because I have no Arabic. I basically read and get the gist of the arguments, then respond.
The translation of 2187 that I used is from Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Koran. That is the Koran I use and with no Arabic, I really cannot speak of the translation itself. I would love to go in search of the best translation but what do I know!?
Regarding telling your wife that you are going to look for another wife. Well, it is very thoughtful and considerate to tell your wife you need another wife in addition to her. So, when you get up off the floor (which is where you would be if you were my husband), what is your reason going to be to your wife? "Wife, as I am such a good man, I want to look after an orphan woman, poor thing. Of course, it will probably mean I am going to sleep with her...."
Did you have an answer to the question I asked Bigmo? Is there a study that shows that Polygamy causes less pain than Divorce?
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Peace all
Well, different translations may render a difference in meaning leaving some confusion. Despite the differences in translations, I think we can all agree, it is not a good thing to be deliberately hurting one another when that 'hurt' can be easily avoided.
It's all very subjective in my opinion. Let me break it down
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We're not trying to compare polygamy and divorce. Why does this feel like deja vu? Have we discussed this before on a different thread? I think we have.
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Divorce and Polygamy are two separate issues
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Divorce and Polygamy serve two different purposes
I think that we're going off on yet another tangent, if we discuss divorce here. There is nothing to compare between the two.
The level of pain, hurt, and resentment between the two cannot be compared as they are two very different things.
Monogamy is the standard of comparison for Polygamy. Both are types of marriages. Divorce is not a type of marriage, it is something completely different. Thus, it cannot be a standard unit for comparison for a type of marriage.
I would mention the examples of apples and oranges here, but they're both fruit. Comparing divorce to polygamy is like comparing space rockets to spinach. The two don't jive.
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Peace again,
Let me break down once more what I think
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Monogamy is the norm as per the Quran (please reference my prior posts to see where I got that from)
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Polygamy is only sanctioned within very special circumstances (again, look at the beginning of Chapter 4, and our prior posts)
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Nowhere in the Quran are women compelled to live a polygamous lifestyle. So, now, where's the issue?
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I opened up a thread in regard to marriage contracts and no one answered the questions I had posed; a marriage contract secures your interests for life, God willing
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If you're apprehensive in regard to marriage because of this issue, then please include the stipulation within your marriage contract, you are not obligated to accept polygamy!
I think the majority of us go into our marriages wanting things to work out. This goes for both men and women. We have hectic lives filled with worries about children, finances, other family members, and etc. The majority of us are not trying to sabotage our marriages. So, how many God fearing men, do you think are going to break that oath (marriage contract), and go off and marry again?
Oh, and if they manage to get themselves married again, do you know that you have the right to divorce in the same manner as men? How many women really want to continue living with a man who desires another woman?
We're not Sunnis or Shia or whatever, we exclusively look to the Quran for our divorce laws. Women have equal rights in regard to divorce, children, and property as per the Quran. If anything, God's position seem to slant in favor of the women more so.
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Peace Release,
So, just suppose the husband is being genuine and really wants to help an orphaned woman. Surely his wife could not object to this. After all, he is only following the Koran. Should she leave him just because he is marrying someone else to be helpful. She may have a clause written into her marriage contract about this. But surely this is anti-Koran - writing clauses that will cancel out God's Words. So, if you have a pre-nup it in effect means your husband could not help out by marrying another woman in a time of need.
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Peace Dawn,
This why I said that the whole thing is subjective. Some women may not object to this, while many will. Polygamy is not obligatory to the men, it's just permissible given certain circumstances. So, she's not forbidding or discouraging him from anything that he has an obligation to. For example, he is obligated to honor his parents or give charity from his excess wealth, but he is not obligated to marry again. It's a choice. This is why the clause does not cancel out God's words.
Also, the couple by mutual agreement have the choice to renew the contract, and add the polygamy allowance to the contract at a later time. This is the beauty of contracts, they can be amended at different times upon mutual consultation if necessary.
Another thing, keep in mind, that a single wealthy man may choose to marry up to four women within one setting given the circumstances. The four women may agree at the time to this marriage, due to their circumstances being the overriding reason. So, this is possible as well.
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Peace Dawn,
Let me give you an example
I write a syllabus for a class in which I require 4 exams + 1 optional project that can replace a low score on an exam.
The 4 exams are of course required, and so the student must complete these exams. However, the project is optional. If the student's parents decide that they will leave for a holiday one week prior to school commencing, then the student will be unable to complete the project which is optional. As a result, the student will not be penalized for not completing the project, as it was not obligatory and bears no weight against the student.
Polygamy is similar in this aspect. If one is kept from practicing it due to a prior oath or commitment, then they will not be penalized from not practicing it. However, one cannot be kept from their contact prayers, charity, fasting, helping their parents, fighting oppression, and etc. These are obligatory acts (at least from my viewpoint).
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Peace Dawn and Released,
Good to see we're 'Discussing' again )
Dawn
Peace Fallen Angel,
If I don't respond to something it is because I agree with it or I am unable to respond to it. For example, I don't respond very much to the big discussions based on the Arabic language, because I have no Arabic. I basically read and get the gist of the arguments, then respond.
The translation of 2187 that I used is from Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Koran. That is the Koran I use and with no Arabic, I really cannot speak of the translation itself. I would love to go in search of the best translation but what do I know!?
Regarding telling your wife that you are going to look for another wife. Well, it is very thoughtful and considerate to tell your wife you need another wife in addition to her. So, when you get up off the floor (which is where you would be if you were my husband), what is your reason going to be to your wife? "Wife, as I am such a good man, I want to look after an orphan woman, poor thing. Of course, it will probably mean I am going to sleep with her...."
Did you have an answer to the question I asked Bigmo? Is there a study that shows that Polygamy causes less pain than Divorce?
Thank you for clearing it up why you don't respond to literally 'Everything'. My bad, I didn't consider that perhaps its due to you not understanding Arabic. Anyway, regarding the translation your using; I suggest you consider the following sources for translation
Quran.Al-Islam.Org - There you can easily view a verse with Arabic text along with Yusuf Ali's, Shakir's, and Pikthal's translation
Corpus.Quran.Com - Here you can view a word to word translation of any verse you want, though keep in mind it just gives a basic idea of the translation, and it is possible that there are alternate translations to what it gives to the words.
Muhammad Asad's transaltion - This guy is one my favorite interpreters. Though there will be times when you'd disagree with what he writes in his footnotes, even I do, but his translation is quite good. But of course, relying solely upon him isn't the best thing to do. You can download his 'Message of the Quran' easily from the internet.
Quranix.com - This I think is what you should go with at the moment, along with Quran.Al-Islam.Org. This contains translations of Muhammad Asad, Rashad Khalifa, Monotheist Group, Edip-Layth, Shabbir Ahmed, Edip Yuksel and others. Along with the transliteration as well.Coming to your point on telling your wife. Well, I don't know what to say, I don't want to sound harsh, but for some reason, you aren't differentiating between 'Telling' and 'Asking'. This is the third time I'm mentioning this; your husband cannot marry another woman without your permission, or without your leave. If he does, then he's going against the Quran, when it says to do justice between wives. If you aren't happy with him marrying another woman, then he can't ever marry someone else. The Quran itself promotes monogamy, there are many verses like that. Only in such circumstances regarding orphans, is it allowed. And even then with the permission of the first wife. If your husband wants to marry another woman, and you don't allow it, and if he does, then you may beat him up D jk but seriously, he can't, ever, never, without your PERMISSION marry another woman.
As for my reply to Bigmo, well, it wasn't regarding research, my reply was to his part where he said that divorce also gives pain, but it doesn't mean we should forbid it. And believe me, it does give pain, one way or another, either to the husband, or wife, or the child if there is any.
Released
Thank you for your replies, you've explained what I'm trying to say in different words, which I think should make it clear what we're/I'm/you're trying to present here. One of the reasons I see why we (Here I'm referring to all of us) aren't able to comprehend what the other is saying is that we're communicating by means of text, perhaps if we were talking face to face, this issue would've been solved a long time ago.
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Peace Fallen Angel,
I understand the points that everyone is making, I just don't necessarily agree with them.
Could either you or Release clear up for me where in the Koran it tells a man he cannot marry another woman without the permission of the first wife, or the previous wife. W
Dawn.
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Peace Dawn,
Thanks again for understanding what we're saying. Coming to your question, I deduce this like this
43 Says that the man is supposed to decide whether he'll be able to do justice with wives or not, right? Now, of course, justice means being equal on both sides, hence, if he's asking permission of the woman he's marrying, who would become his second wife, then he must ask his first wife as well. Only then will he be acting equally between them. If he's forcibly marrying the second woman, then he may forcibly make his first wife accept that he's marrying another wife too. Only then is he doing justice on both sides. However, the latter case, in blue, of forcefully marrying a woman, cannot exist. This is due to two verses, the first one is a weaker argument, the second one is stronger
- 419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you that you inherit/become heirs of women against their will....
This verse if read in context shows that it refers to marriage. It doesn't clearly state that whether its referring to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, or forcibly marrying women. Hence, it is possible that it refers to both. However, if you believe it refers to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, then see the next verse, which I'm sure is quite a strong argument
- 43 ...Marry who have agreed with you from the women....
This is part of the verse we're discussing, in case you didn't realize that. The Arabic states those women who 'Taaba lakum'. 'Taaba' comes from 'Tayyib', which means, 'Agreeable', 'Lawful', and 'Pure'. The word 'Taaba' used in this verse is in the past tense, and since it is the purpose of doing justice to orphans, it is translated as 'Agreed to/with you'. The reason for not choosing 'Lawful' is because the verses that state which women are not lawful to marry come after this verse, hence it is unlikely that this be translated as 'Lawful'. The reason for not choosing 'Pure' is pretty much the same.
Since this verse suggests that these women have 'Agreed' with the man, it can be concluded that the man asked their permission before marrying them right? Agreement comes from a mutual consent, and each others' leave. Hence, if he's taking the permission of the woman he's marrying, then he must also take the permission of who he has already married. Only then will he be doing justice between both sides.
Make sense?
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divorced is allowed in order to stop pain not to cause pain. If you have an unhappy marriage of course divorce is going to solve that problem. But how is polygamy going to solve an unhappy marriage confused
Peace
LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
LOL! rotfl rotfl rotfl
But well I believe in staying faithful to your spouse therefore I would not marry more then one husband
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Peace FallenAngel )
I like your analysis from 4.3 in regard to permission. I have similar views, let me explain
I see permission as ensuring the utmost justice as well. Even then, it's impossible to be fair or just in entirety, but permission definitely gives both wives an equal amount of respect. I think respect is the key thing here.
Also, bear in mind that men may be the maintainers and protectors of women, but they are not the dictators of the family unit. Marriage, divorce, death, birth; all of these things bring a great change in dynamics within the family unit. Thus, one person cannot go and make such a sudden decision, without respecting and honoring the perspectives and stance of other family members. For example, today, I cannot go and buy a kitten and expect my feline hating husband to just accept my decision and live with it. He is not obligated to do this, and I would have disregarded God's advise of mutual consultation before reaching a decision.
Divorce often takes place as a means of alleviating a great problem. Many times, one spouse may be making the marriage very difficult or dangerous, and this is why divorce ensues. As we know, divorce is one of those things, that is permissible yet God strongly dislikes. As a result, the disliked notion of it becomes preferred, because the negative aspects of the marriage outweigh any positives, and the situation has become very volatile without a solution in sight.
Polygamy does not relate to this scenario at all. If one marriage is broke, it does make sense to embark on another. The couple need counseling, help from arbitrators, and then they are allowed to part amicably if absolutely necessary.
I know that both polygamy and divorce have the capability of creating hurt, however, I still do not think that the two are comparable to one another. Their purpose, consequences, and design are completely different. Thus, I do not hold one as a standard of comparison to the other.
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
Peace Amina,
When my husband I were discussing this issue, he did say that to me once, but then quickly retracted this statement after seeing my facial expression voodoo..haha.
The truth is, both husband and wife are headaches to one another laugh. I've made many sacrifices, and he has had to learn a lot of patience over the years. I find that marriage is like this learning experience that helps us grow as individuals, makes us more patient, and teaches us what it really means to love and care for a person beyond the initial lust and infatuation. We still love and respect one another, but it has not been easy.