Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Peace Release,
So, just suppose the husband is being genuine and really wants to help an orphaned woman. Surely his wife could not object to this. After all, he is only following the Koran. Should she leave him just because he is marrying someone else to be helpful. She may have a clause written into her marriage contract about this. But surely this is anti-Koran - writing clauses that will cancel out God's Words. So, if you have a pre-nup it in effect means your husband could not help out by marrying another woman in a time of need.
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Peace Dawn,
This why I said that the whole thing is subjective. Some women may not object to this, while many will. Polygamy is not obligatory to the men, it's just permissible given certain circumstances. So, she's not forbidding or discouraging him from anything that he has an obligation to. For example, he is obligated to honor his parents or give charity from his excess wealth, but he is not obligated to marry again. It's a choice. This is why the clause does not cancel out God's words.
Also, the couple by mutual agreement have the choice to renew the contract, and add the polygamy allowance to the contract at a later time. This is the beauty of contracts, they can be amended at different times upon mutual consultation if necessary.
Another thing, keep in mind, that a single wealthy man may choose to marry up to four women within one setting given the circumstances. The four women may agree at the time to this marriage, due to their circumstances being the overriding reason. So, this is possible as well.
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Peace Dawn,
Let me give you an example
I write a syllabus for a class in which I require 4 exams + 1 optional project that can replace a low score on an exam.
The 4 exams are of course required, and so the student must complete these exams. However, the project is optional. If the student's parents decide that they will leave for a holiday one week prior to school commencing, then the student will be unable to complete the project which is optional. As a result, the student will not be penalized for not completing the project, as it was not obligatory and bears no weight against the student.
Polygamy is similar in this aspect. If one is kept from practicing it due to a prior oath or commitment, then they will not be penalized from not practicing it. However, one cannot be kept from their contact prayers, charity, fasting, helping their parents, fighting oppression, and etc. These are obligatory acts (at least from my viewpoint).
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Peace Dawn and Released,
Good to see we're 'Discussing' again )
Dawn
Peace Fallen Angel,
If I don't respond to something it is because I agree with it or I am unable to respond to it. For example, I don't respond very much to the big discussions based on the Arabic language, because I have no Arabic. I basically read and get the gist of the arguments, then respond.
The translation of 2187 that I used is from Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Koran. That is the Koran I use and with no Arabic, I really cannot speak of the translation itself. I would love to go in search of the best translation but what do I know!?
Regarding telling your wife that you are going to look for another wife. Well, it is very thoughtful and considerate to tell your wife you need another wife in addition to her. So, when you get up off the floor (which is where you would be if you were my husband), what is your reason going to be to your wife? "Wife, as I am such a good man, I want to look after an orphan woman, poor thing. Of course, it will probably mean I am going to sleep with her...."
Did you have an answer to the question I asked Bigmo? Is there a study that shows that Polygamy causes less pain than Divorce?
Thank you for clearing it up why you don't respond to literally 'Everything'. My bad, I didn't consider that perhaps its due to you not understanding Arabic. Anyway, regarding the translation your using; I suggest you consider the following sources for translation
Quran.Al-Islam.Org - There you can easily view a verse with Arabic text along with Yusuf Ali's, Shakir's, and Pikthal's translation
Corpus.Quran.Com - Here you can view a word to word translation of any verse you want, though keep in mind it just gives a basic idea of the translation, and it is possible that there are alternate translations to what it gives to the words.
Muhammad Asad's transaltion - This guy is one my favorite interpreters. Though there will be times when you'd disagree with what he writes in his footnotes, even I do, but his translation is quite good. But of course, relying solely upon him isn't the best thing to do. You can download his 'Message of the Quran' easily from the internet.
Quranix.com - This I think is what you should go with at the moment, along with Quran.Al-Islam.Org. This contains translations of Muhammad Asad, Rashad Khalifa, Monotheist Group, Edip-Layth, Shabbir Ahmed, Edip Yuksel and others. Along with the transliteration as well.Coming to your point on telling your wife. Well, I don't know what to say, I don't want to sound harsh, but for some reason, you aren't differentiating between 'Telling' and 'Asking'. This is the third time I'm mentioning this; your husband cannot marry another woman without your permission, or without your leave. If he does, then he's going against the Quran, when it says to do justice between wives. If you aren't happy with him marrying another woman, then he can't ever marry someone else. The Quran itself promotes monogamy, there are many verses like that. Only in such circumstances regarding orphans, is it allowed. And even then with the permission of the first wife. If your husband wants to marry another woman, and you don't allow it, and if he does, then you may beat him up D jk but seriously, he can't, ever, never, without your PERMISSION marry another woman.
As for my reply to Bigmo, well, it wasn't regarding research, my reply was to his part where he said that divorce also gives pain, but it doesn't mean we should forbid it. And believe me, it does give pain, one way or another, either to the husband, or wife, or the child if there is any.
Released
Thank you for your replies, you've explained what I'm trying to say in different words, which I think should make it clear what we're/I'm/you're trying to present here. One of the reasons I see why we (Here I'm referring to all of us) aren't able to comprehend what the other is saying is that we're communicating by means of text, perhaps if we were talking face to face, this issue would've been solved a long time ago.
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Peace Fallen Angel,
I understand the points that everyone is making, I just don't necessarily agree with them.
Could either you or Release clear up for me where in the Koran it tells a man he cannot marry another woman without the permission of the first wife, or the previous wife. W
Dawn.
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Peace Dawn,
Thanks again for understanding what we're saying. Coming to your question, I deduce this like this
43 Says that the man is supposed to decide whether he'll be able to do justice with wives or not, right? Now, of course, justice means being equal on both sides, hence, if he's asking permission of the woman he's marrying, who would become his second wife, then he must ask his first wife as well. Only then will he be acting equally between them. If he's forcibly marrying the second woman, then he may forcibly make his first wife accept that he's marrying another wife too. Only then is he doing justice on both sides. However, the latter case, in blue, of forcefully marrying a woman, cannot exist. This is due to two verses, the first one is a weaker argument, the second one is stronger
- 419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you that you inherit/become heirs of women against their will....
This verse if read in context shows that it refers to marriage. It doesn't clearly state that whether its referring to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, or forcibly marrying women. Hence, it is possible that it refers to both. However, if you believe it refers to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, then see the next verse, which I'm sure is quite a strong argument
- 43 ...Marry who have agreed with you from the women....
This is part of the verse we're discussing, in case you didn't realize that. The Arabic states those women who 'Taaba lakum'. 'Taaba' comes from 'Tayyib', which means, 'Agreeable', 'Lawful', and 'Pure'. The word 'Taaba' used in this verse is in the past tense, and since it is the purpose of doing justice to orphans, it is translated as 'Agreed to/with you'. The reason for not choosing 'Lawful' is because the verses that state which women are not lawful to marry come after this verse, hence it is unlikely that this be translated as 'Lawful'. The reason for not choosing 'Pure' is pretty much the same.
Since this verse suggests that these women have 'Agreed' with the man, it can be concluded that the man asked their permission before marrying them right? Agreement comes from a mutual consent, and each others' leave. Hence, if he's taking the permission of the woman he's marrying, then he must also take the permission of who he has already married. Only then will he be doing justice between both sides.
Make sense?
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divorced is allowed in order to stop pain not to cause pain. If you have an unhappy marriage of course divorce is going to solve that problem. But how is polygamy going to solve an unhappy marriage confused
Peace
LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
LOL! rotfl rotfl rotfl
But well I believe in staying faithful to your spouse therefore I would not marry more then one husband
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Peace FallenAngel )
I like your analysis from 4.3 in regard to permission. I have similar views, let me explain
I see permission as ensuring the utmost justice as well. Even then, it's impossible to be fair or just in entirety, but permission definitely gives both wives an equal amount of respect. I think respect is the key thing here.
Also, bear in mind that men may be the maintainers and protectors of women, but they are not the dictators of the family unit. Marriage, divorce, death, birth; all of these things bring a great change in dynamics within the family unit. Thus, one person cannot go and make such a sudden decision, without respecting and honoring the perspectives and stance of other family members. For example, today, I cannot go and buy a kitten and expect my feline hating husband to just accept my decision and live with it. He is not obligated to do this, and I would have disregarded God's advise of mutual consultation before reaching a decision.
Divorce often takes place as a means of alleviating a great problem. Many times, one spouse may be making the marriage very difficult or dangerous, and this is why divorce ensues. As we know, divorce is one of those things, that is permissible yet God strongly dislikes. As a result, the disliked notion of it becomes preferred, because the negative aspects of the marriage outweigh any positives, and the situation has become very volatile without a solution in sight.
Polygamy does not relate to this scenario at all. If one marriage is broke, it does make sense to embark on another. The couple need counseling, help from arbitrators, and then they are allowed to part amicably if absolutely necessary.
I know that both polygamy and divorce have the capability of creating hurt, however, I still do not think that the two are comparable to one another. Their purpose, consequences, and design are completely different. Thus, I do not hold one as a standard of comparison to the other.
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
Peace Amina,
When my husband I were discussing this issue, he did say that to me once, but then quickly retracted this statement after seeing my facial expression voodoo..haha.
The truth is, both husband and wife are headaches to one another laugh. I've made many sacrifices, and he has had to learn a lot of patience over the years. I find that marriage is like this learning experience that helps us grow as individuals, makes us more patient, and teaches us what it really means to love and care for a person beyond the initial lust and infatuation. We still love and respect one another, but it has not been easy.
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Its good to see we aren't getting hyper anymore, means a lot to me, or at least that's what is apparent D
But anyway, Released handshake
Btw since the a new page has started, like last time, this is for Dawn in particular; Be sure to flip back to the previous page and read my reply at 053856 A.K.A Reply #226
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Peace Amina,
When my husband I were discussing this issue, he did say that to me once, but then quickly retracted this statement after seeing my facial expression voodoo..haha.
The truth is, both husband and wife are headaches to one another laugh. I've made many sacrifices, and he has had to learn a lot of patience over the years. I find that marriage is like this learning experience that helps us grow as individuals, makes us more patient, and teaches us what it really means to love and care for a person beyond the initial lust and infatuation. We still love and respect one another, but it has not been easy.
I very much agree! I guess I just laugh at that comment because I know the type of woman I am...I can be confusing at times because...well sometimes I just don't know what I want! I always have my hands in one thing or another One minute I am taking a sewing class, the next minute I have signed up for an Arabic language class, and next week I will probably be interested in learning how decorate cakes. I hardly ever finish anything I start. ;D
And also about your other comment...you are right. If one marriage is in trouble, moving on to another doesn't solve anything. As a matter of fact, it only creates another problem. I tried to explain this to my ex when he accused me of having eyes for other men. I told him "How in the world does having an affair solve anything? Then I would have TWO men on my hands, and you are more than enough work!"
-Amina
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Peace Amina,
I know what you mean. I started guitar lessons back home, and now I have yet to find a new guitar teacher out here. My guitar is sitting lonely in a corner.
fftopic
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lol, its amusing how GODsubmitter pops up outta nowhere, it seems he's with us, keeping track of the thread, but doesn't want to participate in it. Am I right GODsubmitter?
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lol, its amusing how GODsubmitter pops up outta nowhere, it seems he's with us, keeping track of the thread, but doesn't want to participate in it. Am I right GODsubmitter?
I am here to learn about the Qur'an and issues connected with the Qur'an.
I do not participate if I cannot contribute with valuable information.
I also cease to follow the thread if it goes off topic. -
I am here to learn about the Qur'an and issues connected with the Qur'an.
I do not participate if I cannot contribute with valuable information.
I also cease to follow the thread if it goes off topic.Good