Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Peace Dawn and Released,
Good to see we're 'Discussing' again )
Dawn
Peace Fallen Angel,
If I don't respond to something it is because I agree with it or I am unable to respond to it. For example, I don't respond very much to the big discussions based on the Arabic language, because I have no Arabic. I basically read and get the gist of the arguments, then respond.
The translation of 2187 that I used is from Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Koran. That is the Koran I use and with no Arabic, I really cannot speak of the translation itself. I would love to go in search of the best translation but what do I know!?
Regarding telling your wife that you are going to look for another wife. Well, it is very thoughtful and considerate to tell your wife you need another wife in addition to her. So, when you get up off the floor (which is where you would be if you were my husband), what is your reason going to be to your wife? "Wife, as I am such a good man, I want to look after an orphan woman, poor thing. Of course, it will probably mean I am going to sleep with her...."
Did you have an answer to the question I asked Bigmo? Is there a study that shows that Polygamy causes less pain than Divorce?
Thank you for clearing it up why you don't respond to literally 'Everything'. My bad, I didn't consider that perhaps its due to you not understanding Arabic. Anyway, regarding the translation your using; I suggest you consider the following sources for translation
Quran.Al-Islam.Org - There you can easily view a verse with Arabic text along with Yusuf Ali's, Shakir's, and Pikthal's translation
Corpus.Quran.Com - Here you can view a word to word translation of any verse you want, though keep in mind it just gives a basic idea of the translation, and it is possible that there are alternate translations to what it gives to the words.
Muhammad Asad's transaltion - This guy is one my favorite interpreters. Though there will be times when you'd disagree with what he writes in his footnotes, even I do, but his translation is quite good. But of course, relying solely upon him isn't the best thing to do. You can download his 'Message of the Quran' easily from the internet.
Quranix.com - This I think is what you should go with at the moment, along with Quran.Al-Islam.Org. This contains translations of Muhammad Asad, Rashad Khalifa, Monotheist Group, Edip-Layth, Shabbir Ahmed, Edip Yuksel and others. Along with the transliteration as well.Coming to your point on telling your wife. Well, I don't know what to say, I don't want to sound harsh, but for some reason, you aren't differentiating between 'Telling' and 'Asking'. This is the third time I'm mentioning this; your husband cannot marry another woman without your permission, or without your leave. If he does, then he's going against the Quran, when it says to do justice between wives. If you aren't happy with him marrying another woman, then he can't ever marry someone else. The Quran itself promotes monogamy, there are many verses like that. Only in such circumstances regarding orphans, is it allowed. And even then with the permission of the first wife. If your husband wants to marry another woman, and you don't allow it, and if he does, then you may beat him up D jk but seriously, he can't, ever, never, without your PERMISSION marry another woman.
As for my reply to Bigmo, well, it wasn't regarding research, my reply was to his part where he said that divorce also gives pain, but it doesn't mean we should forbid it. And believe me, it does give pain, one way or another, either to the husband, or wife, or the child if there is any.
Released
Thank you for your replies, you've explained what I'm trying to say in different words, which I think should make it clear what we're/I'm/you're trying to present here. One of the reasons I see why we (Here I'm referring to all of us) aren't able to comprehend what the other is saying is that we're communicating by means of text, perhaps if we were talking face to face, this issue would've been solved a long time ago.
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Peace Fallen Angel,
I understand the points that everyone is making, I just don't necessarily agree with them.
Could either you or Release clear up for me where in the Koran it tells a man he cannot marry another woman without the permission of the first wife, or the previous wife. W
Dawn.
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Peace Dawn,
Thanks again for understanding what we're saying. Coming to your question, I deduce this like this
43 Says that the man is supposed to decide whether he'll be able to do justice with wives or not, right? Now, of course, justice means being equal on both sides, hence, if he's asking permission of the woman he's marrying, who would become his second wife, then he must ask his first wife as well. Only then will he be acting equally between them. If he's forcibly marrying the second woman, then he may forcibly make his first wife accept that he's marrying another wife too. Only then is he doing justice on both sides. However, the latter case, in blue, of forcefully marrying a woman, cannot exist. This is due to two verses, the first one is a weaker argument, the second one is stronger
- 419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you that you inherit/become heirs of women against their will....
This verse if read in context shows that it refers to marriage. It doesn't clearly state that whether its referring to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, or forcibly marrying women. Hence, it is possible that it refers to both. However, if you believe it refers to forcibly keeping women under wedlock, then see the next verse, which I'm sure is quite a strong argument
- 43 ...Marry who have agreed with you from the women....
This is part of the verse we're discussing, in case you didn't realize that. The Arabic states those women who 'Taaba lakum'. 'Taaba' comes from 'Tayyib', which means, 'Agreeable', 'Lawful', and 'Pure'. The word 'Taaba' used in this verse is in the past tense, and since it is the purpose of doing justice to orphans, it is translated as 'Agreed to/with you'. The reason for not choosing 'Lawful' is because the verses that state which women are not lawful to marry come after this verse, hence it is unlikely that this be translated as 'Lawful'. The reason for not choosing 'Pure' is pretty much the same.
Since this verse suggests that these women have 'Agreed' with the man, it can be concluded that the man asked their permission before marrying them right? Agreement comes from a mutual consent, and each others' leave. Hence, if he's taking the permission of the woman he's marrying, then he must also take the permission of who he has already married. Only then will he be doing justice between both sides.
Make sense?
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divorced is allowed in order to stop pain not to cause pain. If you have an unhappy marriage of course divorce is going to solve that problem. But how is polygamy going to solve an unhappy marriage confused
Peace
LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
LOL! rotfl rotfl rotfl
But well I believe in staying faithful to your spouse therefore I would not marry more then one husband
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Peace FallenAngel )
I like your analysis from 4.3 in regard to permission. I have similar views, let me explain
I see permission as ensuring the utmost justice as well. Even then, it's impossible to be fair or just in entirety, but permission definitely gives both wives an equal amount of respect. I think respect is the key thing here.
Also, bear in mind that men may be the maintainers and protectors of women, but they are not the dictators of the family unit. Marriage, divorce, death, birth; all of these things bring a great change in dynamics within the family unit. Thus, one person cannot go and make such a sudden decision, without respecting and honoring the perspectives and stance of other family members. For example, today, I cannot go and buy a kitten and expect my feline hating husband to just accept my decision and live with it. He is not obligated to do this, and I would have disregarded God's advise of mutual consultation before reaching a decision.
Divorce often takes place as a means of alleviating a great problem. Many times, one spouse may be making the marriage very difficult or dangerous, and this is why divorce ensues. As we know, divorce is one of those things, that is permissible yet God strongly dislikes. As a result, the disliked notion of it becomes preferred, because the negative aspects of the marriage outweigh any positives, and the situation has become very volatile without a solution in sight.
Polygamy does not relate to this scenario at all. If one marriage is broke, it does make sense to embark on another. The couple need counseling, help from arbitrators, and then they are allowed to part amicably if absolutely necessary.
I know that both polygamy and divorce have the capability of creating hurt, however, I still do not think that the two are comparable to one another. Their purpose, consequences, and design are completely different. Thus, I do not hold one as a standard of comparison to the other.
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LOL! Exactly! I know many men who even if they had the option of marrying more than one wife, wouldn't do it. They say one wife is headache enough, LOL!
Peace Amina,
When my husband I were discussing this issue, he did say that to me once, but then quickly retracted this statement after seeing my facial expression voodoo..haha.
The truth is, both husband and wife are headaches to one another laugh. I've made many sacrifices, and he has had to learn a lot of patience over the years. I find that marriage is like this learning experience that helps us grow as individuals, makes us more patient, and teaches us what it really means to love and care for a person beyond the initial lust and infatuation. We still love and respect one another, but it has not been easy.
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Its good to see we aren't getting hyper anymore, means a lot to me, or at least that's what is apparent D
But anyway, Released handshake
Btw since the a new page has started, like last time, this is for Dawn in particular; Be sure to flip back to the previous page and read my reply at 053856 A.K.A Reply #226
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Peace Amina,
When my husband I were discussing this issue, he did say that to me once, but then quickly retracted this statement after seeing my facial expression voodoo..haha.
The truth is, both husband and wife are headaches to one another laugh. I've made many sacrifices, and he has had to learn a lot of patience over the years. I find that marriage is like this learning experience that helps us grow as individuals, makes us more patient, and teaches us what it really means to love and care for a person beyond the initial lust and infatuation. We still love and respect one another, but it has not been easy.
I very much agree! I guess I just laugh at that comment because I know the type of woman I am...I can be confusing at times because...well sometimes I just don't know what I want! I always have my hands in one thing or another One minute I am taking a sewing class, the next minute I have signed up for an Arabic language class, and next week I will probably be interested in learning how decorate cakes. I hardly ever finish anything I start. ;D
And also about your other comment...you are right. If one marriage is in trouble, moving on to another doesn't solve anything. As a matter of fact, it only creates another problem. I tried to explain this to my ex when he accused me of having eyes for other men. I told him "How in the world does having an affair solve anything? Then I would have TWO men on my hands, and you are more than enough work!"
-Amina
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Peace Amina,
I know what you mean. I started guitar lessons back home, and now I have yet to find a new guitar teacher out here. My guitar is sitting lonely in a corner.
fftopic
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lol, its amusing how GODsubmitter pops up outta nowhere, it seems he's with us, keeping track of the thread, but doesn't want to participate in it. Am I right GODsubmitter?
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lol, its amusing how GODsubmitter pops up outta nowhere, it seems he's with us, keeping track of the thread, but doesn't want to participate in it. Am I right GODsubmitter?
I am here to learn about the Qur'an and issues connected with the Qur'an.
I do not participate if I cannot contribute with valuable information.
I also cease to follow the thread if it goes off topic. -
I am here to learn about the Qur'an and issues connected with the Qur'an.
I do not participate if I cannot contribute with valuable information.
I also cease to follow the thread if it goes off topic.Good
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Peace sister Maha,
Peace bro. You suggest the same thing, so whats the problem?
No, a man married to multiple women is not same as many men married to same multiple women.
You are right. I havent shown you that yet, I apologize for that. So let me show you the verse
Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who are in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
How is the above verse evidence that many women are allowed to marry many men?
423 prohibited on/over you your mothers w-bnat-km and your girls/daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mothers sisters w-bnat and girls/daughters the brother w-bnat and girls/daughters the sister and mothers the ones who nursed you and your sisters from the nursing and mothers nisakum/your feminine/women and your step daughters the ones who in your guardianship from nisakum/your feminine/women the ones who entered in them so if not you were entered in them so not blame on/over you and wives your sons the ones who from your loins and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful
On the contrary IF prohibited ? between the two sisters? THEN permitted are non-sisters!
So you mean that quran is a book for tribal societies? Well then we cannot really use it anymore in our modern western gender-equal society anymore, right?
P.s Can you show me where the quran says that it was delivered in the 6th century?
No, not what I wrote.
It does not say in Qur?an nor did I write; approximate time known by language history (coins, inscriptions).
http//ancientcoinsforeducation.org/gallery2/v/Coins+of+Pre-Islamic+Eastern+Cultures/10+Sasanian+Khusru+II.jpg.htmlHis pairs is lawful for him. What has this to do with the nisa discussion?
Another translating could be No NISA are lawful to you after this, nor that you change them for pairs, even though you may be attracted by their goodness, except what is maintained by your oath. And God is Watcher over all things.
In other words, you cannot exchange NISA with Azwaj.
In context, explain pairs and likewise how other than females/nisa can menstruate and give birth?
Let me give you the verses where NISA cannot mean women
314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return
Nisa here cannot mean women because Homosexuality would then be justified
Cross-reference for consistency and best meaning ?
sons (plural)
3355 not blame onto them in their fathers and not their sons and not their brothers and not sons their brothers and not sons their sisters and not their feminine/women and not what possess their right hands and be mindful The God indeed The God is on/over each thing witness
249 and when We saved you from family Pharaoh afflicting you horrible the punishment slaughtering your sons and letting live nisakum/your feminine/women and in those a trial from your Lord great
wal-bnyn/and the masculine/males
314 ornament/beautified to al-nas/the humankind love
the desires from the feminine/women and the masculine/males
and the heaps the stored up from the gold and the silver
and the horses the branded
and the cattle
and the tilled landthose provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return6100 and they make to God partners the jinn and He created them and they attribute to Him bnyn/masculine/males w-bnat/and girls/daughters without knowledge Glory be to Him and Exalted He of what they attribute
37151 that not indeed they from their lie they say
37152 walada/born/begot The God and indeed they surely liars
37153 has He chosen al-bnat/the girls/daughters on/over al-bnyn/the masculine/malesI will come up with other verses soon as well..
OK and please first answer above questions posted to you especially on menses and child birth.
Peace
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Noon
No, a man married to multiple women is not same as many men married to same multiple women.
Please explain why its not the same.
How is the above verse evidence that many women are allowed to marry many men?
Let me repeat it Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who are in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Use your brain please. You are not allowed to marry the wife of your biological son, which means that if he wasnt your biological son you could marry her. So the wife ends up having two husbands.
On the contrary IF prohibited ? between the two sisters? THEN permitted are non-sisters!
Same thing goes from the verse above. IF prohibited between your biological sons THEN permitted are non-biological sons wife!
No, not what I wrote.
It does not say in Qur?an nor did I write; approximate time known by language history (coins, inscriptions).
What have these coins to do with anything? And you basically say that a modern woman like me who doesnt live in a tribal village, should not follow the quran since its not written for me?
In context, explain pairs and likewise how other than females/nisa can menstruate and give birth?
give me the verses and please answer my question. is being lesbian allowed?
sons (plural)
3355 not blame onto them in their fathers and not their sons and not their brothers and not sons their brothers and not sons their sisters and not their feminine/women and not what possess their right hands and be mindful The God indeed The God is on/over each thing witness
249 and when We saved you from family Pharaoh afflicting you horrible the punishment slaughtering your sons and letting live nisakum/your feminine/women and in those a trial from your Lord great
wal-bnyn/and the masculine/males
314 ornament/beautified to al-nas/the humankind love
the desires from the feminine/women and the masculine/males
and the heaps the stored up from the gold and the silver
and the horses the branded
and the cattle
and the tilled landthose provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return6100 and they make to God partners the jinn and He created them and they attribute to Him bnyn/masculine/males w-bnat/and girls/daughters without knowledge Glory be to Him and Exalted He of what they attribute
37151 that not indeed they from their lie they say
37152 walada/born/begot The God and indeed they surely liars
37153 has He chosen al-bnat/the girls/daughters on/over al-bnyn/the masculine/malesI didnt understood the point of the cross references. Please just tell me in short, how I desire women.
Peace
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For Noon WalQalami
Salamun Alaykum Noon, keep in my mind my reply to you in Reply #209 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg313973#msg313973 I'm expecting a reply from you for that.