Am I still a Muslim?

someoneoutthere

Hello,
Replies to questions # 1 - 9 in blue. These are my opinions and do not reflect the views of free-minds. Also, I haven't read all the other posts so what I say could be a repeat.

Salam all.
I've been having a lot of doubts...about everything, not recently but since a year or so now. I thought I had found sanctuary in being a Quran Alone Muslim after I started doubting Sunnism. Some things I have belief in (or rather lack of) go in direct contradiction of Quranic/Islamic teaching, such as...
Pursuing the Truth is not a crime. You owe it to yourself to ask the hard questions. Truth is not determined by what supports our original conclusions, but by what appeals to logic and reason, through sincerity. There is no improvement without change )

I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
I have to ask, why especially "loving"? The ultimate reason why extra-martial relations are prohibited in Islam, no one knows, only Allah does. BUT from what is apparent to me, marriage protects family and children if executed properly. Love marriages have existed roughly from the 19th century and onwards. They are relatively new. This is a faulty paradigm
A. Marriage represents love
B. People are in relationships for love
C. Therefore a contract is not necessary to have sex
Marriage historically served a purpose, binding men and women to a contractual promise that if otherwise didn't exist, they could leave without a financial mess at their hands, and social stigma (motives for staying and working on the marriage - that's the reality). It is more pleasing to think that "a real loving couple" would not break up on a whim but they can and do, easily. Speaking as a female, I do not like the thought of a man leaving me after have relations with him. Some women can accomplish it, but in general, it is trickier for women to separate emotion from sex even those who have adapted to Western dating life. Marriage is a testament of commitment to the couple involved, the public, and to God. Maybe that stopped a while ago, but it ought to be that way.
If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
That depends. If your future spouse shared your values and beliefs, and wanted to pass them on to your children, would it be indoctrination then? For me personally, I might steer my kids in a certain direction but encourage them to think
for themselves. Many non-atheist, non-agnostics want to parent like this too. Hardline religious nuts are at the bottom of my list too.
I don't believe in angels.
According to the Qur'an, there is a Seen world and an Unseen World. If you find the spirit of the Book truthful, its only a matter of faith you believe in angels if you interpret the world "Mala'ikata" to mean angels. This is debated on Free-minds. You may want to use the search tool.
I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
Here's the lowdown, you might not currently, if doubts are shaking your belief considerably. What "prayer" actually consists of is also debated on this forum. For the sake of answering, I will say it is allotted communicating time with the Creator, for any of the following purposes asking for help and guidance, gaining peace, reading out of His Book. Prayer can incorporate motions like prostrating and bowing depending on the individual. Believers seeking to advance their faith benefit
from prayer, and desire it.
The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
I like huruf's post )
I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily
live without it forever.
Not everything is so clear as to why it's forbidden. For example, it never occurred to me why usury was forbidden until I studied some economics. Interest creates debt, and debt enslaves people. The fractional reserve banking system is modern day enslavement. Everything Allah forbids can only do us harm. Pork meat is notorious for contain living parasites and microscopic worms.
Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't
believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
I know you are apprehensive of the revelations, but bear with me. You must postulate. Let's work from the premise that God existed, and he gave us the Qur'an. If God would send us messengers and books, he would intervene, and allow miracles, let alone CAN. God is most able of anything if he exists. Without omnipotence, God would make mistakes, and be in perpetual competition with other beings. The Universe would collapse into chaos.
Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
See above.
I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
Justice is mercy. Truly evil people exist in this world to such an extent they devise new creative methods to torture and kill human beings. Personally I find solace in Ultimate Judgment, where all the wrongs are righted. Whether hell is eternal
or not, any Divine punishment fits the crime. Eternal hell is an idea that troubles me I admit, especially for people who simply do not believe and do not harm others intentionally. Can I ask why you find Judgment day hard to believe?

Peace.

Released

Peace Assassino,

Salam all.

I've been having a lot of doubts...about everything, not recently but since a year or so now. I thought I had found sanctuary in being a Quran Alone Muslim after I started doubting Sunnism. Some things I have belief in (or rather lack of) go in direct contradiction of Quranic/Islamic teaching, such as...

I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.

Personally, I only see sex permissible within marriage as per the Quran.

Okay, and now I want to share my opinion with you. Now, I've actually held this view even prior to having come across the Quran. Having grown up witnessing teenage pregnancies, deadbeat dads, people contracting STDs right, left, and center, and a host of other problems; I came to the conclusion that sex within marriage would protect against these things to a large extent. Now, maybe that's a naive viewpoint, as all of the above can occur regardless. However, I have always assumed that responsible folks should be the ones getting married, and then their responsible selves can engage in responsible sex.

Another thing, I know that people can easily make verbal commitments to one another, but I feel that it's whole different ball game when their recognized as a commited couple having undertaken a oath in public. Something about public perception and having witnesses provides a greater protection against wrongdoing.

So, in a nut shell, it isn't enough to me when people merely profess their love and commitment prior to engaging in sex. I think it's equally important to have taken an oath and then to honor that oath. I see sex as something that comes with many responsibilities, and can lead to a great deal of consequences quite easily.

Now, if you are convinced that sex prior to marriage is perfectly okay given that the couple is in a loving, commited relationship, and you believe that God does not take any issue with this, then what does it matter what anyone else thinks?

Your relationship with God is a personal one, and only He knows as to where you stand.

If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.

Well, I don't blame you. I have some family members who claim to be atheists and agnostic, and they are truly humanitarians. You know that they genuinely love you and want to help you.

However, I have one friend who is marrying an atheist next year, and her situation is a little different. He doesn't like it when she talks about God, and she's a little worried that her kids may grow up to disbelieve like him. She's still going to marry him though, but I know the thought lingers in her mind. I just wish them the best, and hope they can work it out once the kids come along.

Now, in regard to the Quran, we're not to marry the idolators. Though, anyone can commit shirk. Even an atheist. Some people idolize pop culture, I know some people idolize modern medicine and science. Idoltry in itself is such a vast topic.

It's really up to you, though I don't think it makes you a nonmuslim, if you marry someone who does not believe.

Honestly, I'm unsure though.
3. I don't believe in angels.

Okay.
4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.

Again, I don't see how that could make you a nonmuslim or one that does not believe. There are many people that have come to that conclusion after reflecting on the Quran.

The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?

Yup, I think it's for real, and I think it serves a purpose. I started a thread in regard to this ( in the constitution section), where I demanded that the four witnesses come forth with some tangible proof. I think it is very easy for four people to get together, and make up a perfectly, believable story. However, there are some people who believe that four eyewitness testimonies are enough and would suffice. I think that there needs to be proof (such as pictures, video, pregnancy resulting from it, etc). We can't trust people so easily, and I believe that God expects us to utilize our intellect and extend this law further, so that we can be as just as possible.

I believe flogging has to do with shaming and punishing those who put their lewd acts on display. It's just a deterrence for pornography and other publically displayed sexual acts, in my opinion.

I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.

Yup, I wondered about this too. Well, from what I've read and seen, pork meat is very unhealthy and spoils very easily. I even read a study where some people who practiced cannibilism drew striking similarities between the taste and texture of pork and human flesh-meat. The last one scared me the most, but who really knows? I just abstain from it, and don't judge anyone who eats it.

It's up for you to decide.

Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.

I do believe in miracles. I find it interesting how you are questioning whether God even exists? "if God exists". Well, this is the only case where I'd question as to whether you're Muslim or not, because I think God needs be a part of that equation.

In regard to Moses parting the sea or whatever, well, I did not witness it so I'm not even sure how it went down. There are quite a few things from the past that I don't understand. I don't really think about it.

Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.

Well, it says that Jesus was created in the same manner as Adam. So, the question, how was Adam created? Honestly, this isn't something that I really think about often. I think the virgin birth aspect is something that is reiterated time and again within Catholicism. I know the sectarians also stress it. However, as a Quran only muslim, I don't really think about it. I just read the details that are quite obvious, and reflect over them. Whether Mary was a virgin at the time, I just feel like it's irrelevant to me.

I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.

Yes, Judgement Day is something that I whole-heartedly believe in. The world is a messed up place, and people are pretty terrible. Justice doesn't always get dished out on Earth, but justice needs to be served fairly at some point. God ensures that justice is served. Whether you've done an atom's worth of good, or an atom's worth of evil, you get what's yours. Honestly, with the way things are, thank God for a Day of Judgement. The details may appear to be gory, but they also appear as allegorical to me at times. Sometimes, I think Hell exists on this Earth, as well. Whatever it is, it's something that's beyond me. I can't understand it. I just try to focus in on the present and how I can better things for me as well as my community. I know that He is also the most Merciful, so we'll see what happens. Think about it, He's more merciful than the kindest, most forgiving human you've ever come across. Even His mercy is beyond our understanding.

In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.

Yup, I have my own opinion in regard to this. I don't believe that there are any verses in the Quran that advocate for persecution or violence against homosexuals. I treat them like I treat any other human being, and that's to always give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't feel like there is anything in the Quran that encourages me to discriminate, persecute, or mistreat them.
11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.

Valid question in my opinion, I wonder about this as well. Of course, I've got no answer for you.

Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.

Again, I have no idea. I'm sure we all wonder about this. Will we ever know? I don't know.

Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.

Shirk is self-destructive behavior more than anything else, in my opinion. You idolize something and forget to think for yourself. You fall into a group-think attitude and become even capable of genocide and the worst kinds of oppression. God asks us to implore Him for guidance, and I've recieved some personal signs (that I don't want to talk about), in regard to life decisions. He wants us to think, reflect, and ask Him for the best guidance. Shirk gets in the way of that. See, God doesn't really need anything. However, when we commit shirk, we are not only are a danger to ourselves but we put others in harms way as well. Shirk to me is about making false assumptions, false admiration, and assigning infallibility to those constructs that are completely fallible at the drop of a hat.

We all get harmed in the end.

I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?

It happens.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

I know how you feel. I wish I could be of more help. My only advise is to hold strong and not give up. Keep questioning and asking for signs from Him, and spend even a few minutes everyday reading the Quran, if you can.

Lookitup

Peace lookitup.

I commend your answers.

You certainly did look things up. Yes indeed you did " lookitup".

Peace

thanks for your kind words. but I still have a lot of things to learn other then my usual studies. I need to learn the Quran & Haddiths completely before I could decide which path leads me straight.
may Peace be unto you too.

Pakistani_Assassin

my answer is based solely on my understanding. which isn't much to begin with. bear with me.
1.(Sex before marriage?)
I don't think sex before marriage is ok based on the verses you've quoted about lashing the fornicators/adulterer.in google translate the word is translated as Adulterer not fornicator but this need to be study more in depth.

Why don't you think sex before marriage is ok? Just because Allah says so in the Quran? Needless to say, there is difference of opinion on whether extramarital sex is permissible among Quran Only muslims.

2.marriage with atheist? agnostic? muslim? in the end it all depends who that person is. for example you could marry an Atheist that doesn't like your beliefs and would prevent you from further teaching the child your views. being an atheist doesn't make a person open minded. nor does being in a muslim society makes a person muslim. Allah knows who and what we are.

I never said being an Atheist makes one more open minded. Thats why I specifically stated 'in my experience'. However, Irreligious people aren't bound by religious laws, so this may explain why Atheists etc, tend to be more open minded from my experience. It may also explain why some of the most successful countries have large Irreligious populations such as Sweden, Canada, Australia, Norway etc.

angels? as in Gabriel?(Jibreel) I think any person that believes the Quran was sent down from Allah/Creator need to recognise the character Jibreel.

I'd be more inclined to believe in this if there was some sort of evidence pointing to the existence of angels/invisible beings. People here may disagree on what the word Jibraeel actually means, so I think this needs to be looked into further.

4.Prayer is for our own well being. Contact Allah. so he might reply.

I have, numerous times. But I never got a reply.

see my answer above regarding this issue. if it is the command of Allah then we must hear and obey. (this verse needs more reading maybe it does mean "fornicator" rather then "adulterer&quot

Some people aren't sheep.

6.I think there is a verse in the Quran that forbids Jews from eating a certain kind of food because it was a punishment from Allah for what they used to do. similarly Allah has a reason to forbid us the eating of pork(maybe it is a test I don't know.. if a thing as simple as not eating a certain kind of animal should hinder a person from his or her deen then... ( )

Interesting that you brought this up. Yes the Quran does mention certain foods being forbidden for Jews, but then this begs the question Why? Why are Jews being punished for the sins of Jews a few (many?) thousand years ago? Original sin much?

7.Allah intervene?
it is easy for Allah, the splitting of the sea is as unbelievable to me as there is a giant floating ball of fire outside beaming energy rays to us. yes,I'm talking about the Sun. surely ONE that could create the universe and us humans.. the splitting of the sea would be nothing to Allah the Lord of the worlds.

OK. Sure it should be easy for God to do these things. But then this creates a paradox - Why doesn't God intervene in the modern world and answer people's prayers when he decided to intervene a few thousand years ago and do something as magnificent as parting the sea/river in half? God isn't being fair in this regard OR we could say that God doesn't answer prayers, and he didn't intervene in the past to perform miracles, if he is to be consistent. The Quran being revealed to Muhammad is itself a miracle. I think we need to investigate this further as well.

homosexuality?
Allah condemns homosexual relationships in the Quran. maybe a man could be attracted to another man but according to my understanding Allah has forbidden the relationship.

Maybe you think so but then we have to ask why Allah created Gay people in the first place, making life unfair for them. But again, there is a difference of opinion among Quran Only muslims, with quite a few who think Gay relationships are OK.

(why create humans in the first place?)
All knowledge is with Allah.
verse from chapter 2 verse 30 of the Quran
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."

Allah effectively decided not to answer the angel's questions. Like I said, probably because there may not be an answer?

12.why did Allah have to create anything? it's a bit hard to answer this question.. even the angels probably don't know. Allah is free of needs. let's study the Quran more. you, me, and the whole of man. let's read.

Sure.

Pakistani_Assassin

The verse says "believer for the believer and unbeliever for the unbeliever" so what's important is the state of mind. Many people will verbally say that they deny the existence of God, but their mentality and their hearts say otherwise.

What do you mean? How can one's mentality and 'heart' go against what they're thinking? Do righteous actions mean people are somehow believers in God even if they deny this?

I would argue that the important part of that video was about how pigs process food and where the toxins go and how fast they digest things. If a beaver's digestive system is 4 hours, then I'll agree with you but until then... elektro

Well tbh, i'm no scientist. So the physics behind a pig, a kangaroo or a cockroach's digestive system gets a bit long winded for me and I have to ask, does it really matter? As long as you cook Pork properly, the meat will almost certainly be good to eat and this applies to every other animal out there. In short, I don't think a Pig's (or any other animal's) digestive system matters if you cook the meat well and enjoy the food. eat

Regardless, Allah forbids Pig meat without giving any reason whatsoever, so we're just speculating here on why Allah in his infinite wisdom forbids pork. HOWEVER, if you're a fan of raw meat, I'd agree, stay away from pork at all costs. yes

I would argue that the body functions because of God. He also gave us brains to understand in which situations we'd stay alive.

But then it's our brains keeping us alive. P

Perhaps from your perspective it wasn't needed. God's perspective might be different. But that's only something He can answer.

It is indeed something God can only answer. And yet he didn't answer this in the Quran. Hopefully we find out one day why everything exists, though I doubt it.

Since when did God want blind faith? And why don't you think objective truth exists?

Did a quick search of "objective truth" and found this article http//atheism.about.com/od/philosophyepistemology/a/ObjectiveTruth.htm

So I kind of see what you're saying, I think.

Yes, but I'm also talking from a religious viewpoint. The 'fact' that God exists 100%, the after life exists 100% and our purpose is to attain jannah or heaven. Many people can't relate to this; for example, a muslim may pray to Allah 5 times a day, but not be able to feel his existence. The religion tells him to do it, but he doesn't feel anything. In short he's doing something he otherwise wouldn't simply because of fear of rejecting his/her God's demands and you could apply this to any religion/creed. On the other hand, with subjective truth, people believing what they feel is truth based on their own experiences and likes - in short thing we relate to. I'm not sure if i'm making sense here because this is a bit hard to explain.

Aww. Lol. I am very similar.

Good to know. laugh

Thanks, bro. I'm glad I could help a little.

Peace and blessings! yay

Keep up the long posts, I like them.

And yes, you like everyone else are proving to be good help even if I don't agree on certain things.

Pakistani_Assassin

Hello,
Replies to questions # 1 - 9 in blue. These are my opinions and do not reflect the views of free-minds. Also, I haven't read all the other posts so what I say could be a repeat.

Peace.

Hi.

The reason why I said 'especially loving couples' is because I see absolutely nothing wrong with sex between a committed people BUT i'm not sure if I can either fault those who are mature enough to engage in casual sex? The idea of sleeping around doesn't sit comfortable with me but if there is consent among two people, im not sure if I can call this wrong. Yes, by doing so, there is greater risk of STDs, unwanted pregnancies therefore resulting in potential single mothers but by consenting, these are risks that the two people take into consideration. And if they don't, well tough if something bad happens.

You say

Marriage historically served a purpose, binding men and women to a contractual promise that if otherwise didn't exist, they could leave without a financial mess at their hands, and social stigma (motives for staying and working on the marriage - that's the reality). It is more pleasing to think that "a real loving couple" would not break up on a whim but they can and do, easily. Speaking as a female, I do not like the thought of a man leaving me after have relations with him. Some women can accomplish it, but in general, it is trickier for women to separate emotion from sex even those who have adapted to Western dating life. Marriage is a testament of commitment to the couple involved, the public, and to God. Maybe that stopped a while ago, but it ought to be that way.

Your'e right. But times change and people also change. You obviously wont like a man leaving you after having 'relations', but who's to say a marriage or some 'contract' won't prevent him from leaving you anyway? And is marriage really a testament to commitment? We often find marriages breaking up between people who've been married for years, or decades, while on the other hand, some couples live together forever without getting married or signing a 'contract', and I expect this to increase as less people get married due to people beginning to find it unimportant. Who's to say what the world will be like in 1000 years time, the concept of marriage may all but be forgotten. It wasn't that way before, due to a more conservative society, with people finding it necessary to conform to society and their family, and no doubt the will of the Abrahamic faiths shaping the majority of the World - and it still is this way in many areas; the country in which I have my roots for example.

It depends on what you teach your child. If you teach your child that God exists, and everyones destiny is heaven and hell depending on your actions, then you could class that as indoctrination. Neither of these things can be proven but a naive child would take it as fact if taught as such from an early age - children are efficient learners. Personally I think its not a good idea to teach young children about God, or religion in general but in the end the parents have control over their kids, and no one has the right to interfere unless there is physical abuse involved.

Usuary is often a bad thing but then again, society wouldn't be able to work properly without involving interest. If you plan on taking a loan, then your'e accepting the risks that come along with it, and if you find you cannot pay the debt, then you only have yourself to blame imo. However, not all are on agreement here. Some argue that context is required when looking at Quranic verses forbidding usury. Others say that if your financially stable then usury isn't a problem. This does need to be looked into more in depth. Besides, in the modern world, you can only buy a house without mortgage if you come from a wealthy family, or if you rise up from the ashes and become incredibly successful in life. The majority however, cannot.

On the instance of Pork, if you cook it properly then all bacteria and microscopic worms die and the meat is good to eat. This applies to most other meat, as most meat contains dangerous bacteria, especially red meat. You could probably capture a wild skunk from your backyard, kill it, skin it, and cook it with it being safe to eat in the end, though I highly recommend you do not try this.

If God did indeed send the Quran and Prophets, and performed magnificent miracles such as parting the sea/river, then we need to ask why God decides not to answer prayers, or at least most prayers. Because there are millions of unanswered prayers out there, and I can't remember if any single prayer of mine had been answered.

I find Judgement day hard to believe in simply because there no evidence to support it. Sure it sounds ideal, but things that sound ideal are often brought about by our own emotions rather than logic or evidence. The idea of God that always existed is ideal because we don't know what kick started the Universe. I guess we'll only find out for sure once we die, right now we can only speculate.

Lookitup

I hope you have a passion for long posts as much as I have for writing them. bear with me.

there is many path. there are some who consider the eating of animal meat is inhumane, or that the act of incest is indeed distasteful or even cannibalism as a thing to be shunned for. even to go to the extreme people like Hitler who probably consider the Jews to be lower than human.. there are even some who considers a person as a mere machine where chemical reaction takes place from point A to point B and that killing such a pointless thing would only bring about a dirty floor that needs to be cleaned later. a glorified ape. nothing more nothing less. now, who's to say they're wrong? maybe they're not.. maybe they're wrong just because I say so? maybe because I feel it is wrong? I've been given feelings too I probably know what most of you here feels. then again.. maybe not. I have taken Islam as a way of life and I have been directed to submit myself to the Lord of the worlds. I think should we ever Submit ourselves to anything then it is to the One who has power over everything, the One that has the ultimate authority. is Sex before marriage is ok? I see marriage as a contract between two people and it should last. now a person might want to do it without the papers. as a muslim having submitted his or her will it is a wrong thing to do. I don't think the punishment for adultery or fornicator extends to non muslims. see reply number 5 below for further discussion on the topic.
P.S, this is my personal view.. but I don't agree with sleeping around. just sayin.

3.now.. regarding the Angels/Malaika. I have always been a big conspiracy nut although less and less lately. and I like the idea of there's another race of beings. to me it's not impossible at all to have beings who are different to humans in their very nature. as muslim I think, doesn't matter belonging to what community I would say at least recognise the Characters that is mentioned in the Quran as Malaika/Angels.
example to one of the angels sent by Allah
He said(the angel), "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you a pure boy."

sincerely. with patience and a sincere mind looking for guidance. that's all I can say regarding this. it's the most basic answer I can give to anyone.

5.("some people aren't sheep&quot what makes them sheep? almost everyone I know in some way or another holds to a certain kind of ideology/way. muslims have their own ,christians have their own ,jews have their own every Tom,Dick and Harry has their own ideology/way. let's change the words rather then saying "we hear and we obey" let's say this is how I think it should be done therefore I'm doing it. let's break it down for further understanding.
Muslim first stage(not a muslim yet) second stage(found Islam) Third stage(studied) four(he trust his decision on taking Islam as a way. for having submitted and believe he's taken Allah as Judge. he thinks/trust this is the right way so he's going for it ).
Harry first stage(wants to buy a new phone) second stage (found an article about Mobile phones ) third stage(he trust his decision based on the article he reads ) fourth (he trust his decision after reading the article he's going for it).
I don't know that much but I do believe that the punishment for fornicators/adulterers is to be sentenced only to muslims?
muslims who have also submitted themselves. I don't know if the punishment is to be extended to people of other faiths.

6.regarding the jews and Allah forbidding them some of the food which was allowed for them before. I don't know much of how the story goes. I don't know if they were generations upon generations after Allah saved them first and put his favour upon them. maybe the ban was for a people of that time and that time only? I'm sorry but I'm afraid to comment on things I don't really know about.

yes, every matter should be investigated especially one as big as this. of course it wouldn't be a good decision to accept things blindly.
I would like to say that I don't know everything. even though I pride myself by saying I'm a muslim I haven't actually read the whole Quran. which is actually dangerous for me to reply to people and expect my answers to be of any use. but I like to communicate.
now coming back to your question. why Allah does not intervene to stop poverty and such. maybe Allah has helped individual person I don't know. I certainly haven't asked. but maybe when we do ask the people Allah helped most of us will probably think "ah there's nothing to it" now, why don't Allah just saves the world? I do believe according to the Quran this is a test.

this is my personal view(this similitude I'm about to give is probably mentioned in the Quran if memory serves me right) I am afraid to be of those that are ungrateful because I have been given a healthy form/body. imagine me the fully proportionate male with a chicken on one hand and a newspaper on the other. while saddened by the current happenings of the world I am enjoying a piece of chicken. now picture a person crying while enjoying a chicken. when I see myself like that I can't help but cringe.

it's the same as asking why create poverty in the first place. or why test us. refer to my reply above number 7. I don't think it's okay. I've read the story of Prophet Lot and his people. I would also recommend you to read Ibrahim's story I find him to be very easy to relate to. Allah being our Creator and all, he sure knows how we feel and what is in the chest.

11.(Allah did not answer the Angel's question)
maybe there is none, maybe they can't comprehend or maybe it's just me not finish reading the Quran.

lastly I would say, read the Quran chapter by chapter verse by verse. I have so many questions sometimes. if you have question regarding the Quran read the Quran. step by step. May you be of those that are Guided to a path that leads straight.
Salam wherever you are.

Note )
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled He said "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #124)

this is a link to search truth for more verses concerning Prophet Ibrahim
http//www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=Abraham&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&search_word=all&start=0&records_display=10&phonetic=

compare all the translations.

good_logic

Peace Assassino.

I will not do you a long post. I will pick only 2 random points from your last post and try to answer the query/idea?

1- Quote It depends on what you teach your child. If you teach your child that God exists, and everyones destiny is heaven and hell depending on your actions, then you could class that as indoctrination. Neither of these things can be proven but a naive child would take it as fact if taught as such from an early age - children are efficient learners.

No! You could argue there is no escape from " indoctrination". But the child will eventually choose his/her own direction.( take you as an example). The only one who is in complete control is the CREATOR.

2-QuoteI find Judgement day hard to believe in simply because there no evidence to support it.

Why is there death then? I find the fact that we all die must be " evidence" that we will be accountable for sure? you see, you and me and all of us going back to our CREATOR! If you say that is not the case, stop yourself from dying then or give a better reason why we die ?

Peace.

seekingtruth

Salam assissino

When I read this topic, it shocked me how close your views are to my own. I can say that im in exactly your position at the moment.
If im bieng honest, if listed all my views and methodology, no doubt people would consider me athiest; which for me is the default position i.e not believing or taking true unless you have valid justification/evidence to do so. This justification/evidence is different for different people, some set the bar low and some like myself are very meticulous. So don't feel to disheartened at labels; like other posters have said labels dont really tell the whole story. One thing im grateful i learnt from quran only islam and this forum is to challenge ideas and question.

I have the same view with regards sex outside of marriage. I would however like to bring up the issue of STD's, it is obvious to state that their is a greater risk to catch std's when one sleeps around, but however the cause of the problem is not random sex, however it lies in bieng unaware that the person carries a std. Awareness and cause of the problems are the issues and those linking them to sleeping around is abit naive.

Marriage has come up alot for me as ive got to a stage where i'd like to start a family. the worrying thing is that i myself feel incompatible with many religious people. Open-mindness and tolerence i have noticed is more prevelant amongst free thinkers, those who reflect and study tend to be alot more suitable for me atleast. This rarely occurs among devoutly religious people and that is the problem for me. Say you marry a devout sunni/christian/hindu/anti-thiest etc and you have kids, you may indeed be open minded however if you significant other is really devout they will definitely enforce there views on kids. The issue boils down how invested the person is in there beliefs and whether those beliefs allow for them think outside of box.

to reply to your views on miracles. This is what has been the pivotal for me recently. When i first started quran only islam miracles i accepted as a package included with the power of God but chose not to devout time to studying it. I only took up interest in miracles recently when sunni's were flashing around hadiths as proofs of miracles and scientific miracles in the quran. This got me curious.

First we need to define what we mean by miracle ;-

a highly improbable but still possible event/occurance e.g falling from a tall building and surviving.
an impossible event/occurance which goes against the "laws" that we know govern our reality e.g an actual headless man walking and talking with his head in his arms.

In the case of 1 there are several claims that can fall in to this category, however you need to be aware that this implies that it is able to be explained and examined using science, if not they fall to second category.

Majority of the miracle claims of a religious nature fall in to the second. This is where the problems starts for me. Depending on how one defines God (its pointless otherwise), I'd say for purposes of this, God is limitless/boundless and cannot be comprehended meaning literally God can do absolutely anything. So it is in Gods ability to do the virgin birth.
now here's the thing the quran states that in few places that God does not go against our reality i.e his decree is unchanging (feel free to correct me if im wrong, cant remember the relevant verses might be mistaken), he can but he doesn't becuase of the business of free will etc. However he also states that he shows signs to us for those who believe and these signs include the virgin birth. Jesus was concieved from literally nothing and is like occurance of Adam from nothing ( im aware this is not the only interpretation). We know this from our understanding of reality that this feat is not only impossible but cannot be tested or reproduced. If reality tells us such a thing is impossible and untestable then how is one able to attest to an event such as the virgin birth even happening. Im told its a sign of God and fair enough but thats the same as me telling someone I the hear voices in my head which gives the correct lottery numbers but i choose not to play them. this is also a circular reasoning because God then requires us to believe to believe. When i need a good evidence to believe as a basis.

My view on the punishments in the quran seem to be very excessive and in particular the punishment for disbelievers in hell. The problem for me ties in with the concept of free will and it the following applies to the concept of hell in general for "sinful" acts

Did God create hell? according to the Quran i'd say yes.
Did God create the criteria by which the universe works and how souls are judged? according to the quran i'd say yes. He set the rules of reality and he set the rules of who goes to heaven and hell.
3 Does anything happen that goes against God will or does anything occur independantly of God (something that God is NOT aware of)?
according to the quran id say no. God is omniscient etc.
4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling. This also leads the question of how does one realise he is rightly guided? Like you said alot of question do go unanswered when going from sunni to quran only islam.

Id like to say something about faith. After years of contemplation ive realised in my own view that faith really isn't a pathway to truth. It for me gives me something to believe i have no good reasons to believe. For me in my sunni days it made me quite biased toward favorable sources and jump to conclusion. When i came to quran only i only kept faith in God but made a biased assumption that the quran was the word of God without any justification to do so. So here i am in a poition to evaluate the quran is what it say it is. and honestly its not looking very good.

Ive realised if God exists then he will exist regardless if the quran is true or not. For me my main desire is to know what is true and not what i want to be true, and that is a decision you yourself have to make.

My advise would be go first through the different arguments for GOD. Ontological and so on and also go through the oppositions to them also. then decide do you believe God exist or not. If you feel you like the idea of God then go and read up on various religions that interest you but remember be aware of the jump one can make from saying there is a god to quran is the word of God with no justification, its easy trap to fall in to.

Id also like to add that the quran itself is the claim and CANNOT be used as the proof of itself. by that i mean saying the quran is the word of god because it says it is the word of god is not proof. also contrary to what some may believe you cannot use the quran itself as a proof of GOD because you first have to prove God exists before attribute something to Him. Thats where you have to decide whether you believe god exists or not and analyse the quran to see whether it is the word of God, which i myself have doubts about

Good luck on your journey to truth.

Peace peace

justamuslim

4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling.

So per your reasoning, it is God who led you to write this post? Is that what you are saying? What you are saying is that you are not responsible for your actions. If that is the case, why would you bother suggesting that one seek the truth himself. According to what you said, it is God who ultimately leads you to say or do things. Basically, you are not responsible for your actions taking any accountability. I wonder how well your reasoning will hold in people's court if I were to break the law and claim that God led me to do it. Don't you think that the whole idea of punishment for breaking the law is ridiculous if it is God who leads us astray in the first place? Why would the police hold me responsible and accountable if I were to violate the law of the land when it is God who lead me to violate in the first place?

hawk99

I wonder how well your reasoning will hold in people's court if I were to break the law and claim that God led me to do it. Don't you think that the whole idea of punishment for breaking the law is ridiculous if it is God who leads us astray in the first place? Why would the police hold me responsible and accountable if I were to violate the law of the land when it is God who lead me to violate in the first place?

Agreed

Those who do not believe in free will can only postulate so in the absence of logic and
the denial of human experience.

Peace O0

inquisitivetrini

Peace all,

About the whole Hell thing, God's system is a deterministic system from what I understand. This article breaks down the terms "whom He wills" and "If He had willed". This will give you a better understanding as to why we do indeed have free choice.

http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice

Here's another, shorter explanation to why free choice exists http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485

I hope this clears things up for the people who read it.

Peace! yay

justamuslim

I don't get the atheist reasoning/logic or lack there of. One hand atheist reject God having issues with punishment stating that it was God who willed and lead people to go astray and that humans don't really have free will to choose. Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

So free will exists only in the absence of God? I don't get it.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

Lookitup

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

hi,I'm not an atheist but let me try and answer some of your questions.

I believe what they are having trouble with is the idea of an eternal punishment. or things like flogging the fornicator.
(head to my reply above to read my understanding on the matter.)

the word atheist is used to describe a person not believing in a Creator. therefore he does not believe in the Hereafter. a Person either Theist or Atheist would all agree on the idea of "Action = consequence" action equals consequence.. but since the Atheist doesn't believe in the consequence or punishment of the hereafter then yes, indeed he do believe that after death the person that committed the crime will get away free. people comes in all different shapes and colours with different way of viewing things.
if a person doesn't believe in the punishment of the hereafter it does not mean that fairness or justice don't matter to him/her.

lastly I would say, All knowledge is with Allah.
Peace.

P.S, I'm sorry I got a habit of replying to topics that I don't fully know about. I haven't finish reading the Quran and I hope not to represent the Book of Allah in the wrong way. so please, to anyone that read my replies. read the Quran step by step to really know what is written.

seekingtruth

Salam justamuslim

I understand the point you are making, that one can relinquish all responsibilty and in a sense blame GOD for there actions. Im sure you are aware that there are alot of people who say God told them to do something which one may see as morally wrong.

What i wrote about hell is my current understanding of what i've come across so far with the conditions i found in the quran. I may be wrong and i appreciate reading other peoples views on such topics.

What i'd like to clarify is that this all depends on the assumption that GOD exists. I could perhaps explain better if you could clarify your own position on what attributes/nature this GOD has. I feel it would dishonest of me to assume definitions if you do not agree with them.
Are Gods attributes knowable (to some extent atleast)?
Do you think God is Omniscient?
Do you think God is omnipotent?
How much do you believe God interferes with our reality/existence/world/universe?
What is your position on pre-destination?

when i say free will, what i am refering to is the choices people make.
would you agree with this definition?

I wholeheartedly agree that we do have choices we can make. The thing is our choices are governed by the enviroment we live in and the choices we make to reflect this ,would you agree with this statement. I was highlighting that in the condition that God exists and understanding the quran atleast in sunni islam and some understandings of the quran leads to a blatent contradiction of God will and our own will.

I can only speak for myself when i say that i dont reject God because i have problems with punishment etc. I just as of yet have not come across valid reasons outside of "faith" to believe the Quran version of God exists.

Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

From this i assume your alluding to where do those who dont believe the quran version of GOD exists (or if he does exist and does not intefere at all) where does one get the sense of morality from. How do we conclude what is right and wrong. correct me if im wrong.
This is an interesting question.

Speaking for myself briefly, i get my own sense of right and wrong from an understanding of reality and not assertion of authority. I form my limits with the rational considerations of my own actions and what affect these actions have on others. Do we have a right impose our will on those around us and what will the consequenses be if we do so. People will always do something that will impact negatively and they will suffer the consequenses of their actions.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

For me atleast the disturbing thing about eternal punishment, essentailly i could be punished for eternity for simply not having sufficient reasons to believe or that i lack faith. do i deserve any sort of punishment?

I want to believe but there are so little reasons to do it. theres no way to demonstrate to any degree of certainty if is true so it just falls back on faith. like i said in earlier post faith is what people say when they have no good or actual reason to believe something. if you have a reason to do something you dont need faith.

If we are to live cooperatively on this planet and atleast to survive to further generations we need to understand and consider actions that will enable us to successfully acheive this goal. For example from history we can conclude certian actions are deemed bad for survival as a community and species. this is where we get what is right and wrong. Mass murder, war, genocide etc impact negatively on society. weve got to a point in society that their is alot more knowlegde and our understanding of the world is increasing. We moving away from the ignorance of reality and the result is positive.

assuming that this is our only life then the consequences obviously only hold true in this life.
Why does there have to be a need for an extra justice. Id like to believe theres an ultimate justice but in the end it is just speculation of sometthing that may or may not happen. So a person may get away scott free without further punishment if there is no hell. what will one do, hope that it exists. hoping doesnt make it happen.

id like to clarify my own postion is a position that rejects claims that have not met their burden of proof.

peace peace

StopS

I don't get the atheist reasoning/logic or lack there of. One hand atheist reject God having issues with punishment stating that it was God who willed and lead people to go astray and that humans don't really have free will to choose. Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

So free will exists only in the absence of God? I don't get it.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

You are not alone with your confusion. ;D

An atheist cannot "reject" a god.
You, a theist, believe that evidence for the existence of god exists.
An atheist does not. That's all.
So an atheist can't reject something for which he sees no evidence.

I personally have a problem with the concept that making love to a woman should result in eternal punishment, torture and pain, when we were both consenting adults and only did something very natural. I also have a problem with the concept of choosing and selecting who gets rewarded, based on a whim. That is my personal attitude.

Free will is different. This is a logical problem. You can't have free will and omniscience together. Also, an atheist also has, what is called "free will". So what's the difference between having choices and being able to do what one wants and "free will"? None. So "free will" as such does not exist.

Atheists don't make claims, they react to religious statements. Is there any proof a person is "bad" due to the influence of god or satan? No. Humans are good, neutral or bad. By nature.

Religions are human-based. Humans have learned over time what is good and bad, or what is beneficial or detrimental. Which is why we have laws and a society which dictates the norms, often based on those religions. Living in this society I am governed by those rules and face the consequence if I break them. If a man rapes a woman, the DNA can be used to provide evidence and the man is punished. What does the Koran use? The testimony of four others and if none exist the man can swear 4 times himself. No further evidence required.

Now to the point where you pose excellent questions, in my eyes. What happens if a criminal gets away? An atheist can only hope that fairness and the conscience prevails and that the human dominates and faces the consequences. If not that person gets away without punishment. In Islam, the person also gets away. But other Muslims hope that the criminal will be punished by Allah, who knows about this. But then, he already knew this criminal would be a criminal during creation and created the criminal anyway.

Now the issue crops up where a believer who is a bad person will be rewarded and the non-believer who is a good person will be punished. THAT's where the problems creep in. What do you think about this?

If I have misunderstood something, please correct me. I welcome any constructive criticism and try and learn what people here are teaching me.

Lookitup