Am I still a Muslim?

[Lookitup]

I hope you have a passion for long posts as much as I have for writing them. bear with me.

1. there is many path. there are some who consider the eating of animal meat is inhumane, or that the act of incest is indeed distasteful or even cannibalism as a thing to be shunned for. even to go to the extreme people like Hitler who probably consider the Jews to be lower than human.. there are even some who considers a person as a mere machine where chemical reaction takes place from point A to point B and that killing such a pointless thing would only bring about a dirty floor that needs to be cleaned later. a glorified ape. nothing more nothing less. now, who's to say they're wrong? maybe they're not.. maybe they're wrong just because I say so? maybe because I feel it is wrong? I've been given feelings too I probably know what most of you here feels. then again.. maybe not. I have taken Islam as a way of life and I have been directed to submit myself to the Lord of the worlds. I think should we ever Submit ourselves to anything then it is to the One who has power over everything, the One that has the ultimate authority. is Sex before marriage is ok? I see marriage as a contract between two people and it should last. now a person might want to do it without the papers. as a muslim having submitted his or her will it is a wrong thing to do. I don't think the punishment for adultery or fornicator extends to non muslims. see reply number 5 below for further discussion on the topic.
   P.S, this is my personal view.. but I don't agree with sleeping around. just sayin.

3.now.. regarding the Angels/Malaika. I have always been a big conspiracy nut although less and less lately. and I like the idea of there's another race of beings. to me it's not impossible at all to have beings who are different to humans in their very nature. as muslim I think, doesn't matter belonging to what community I would say at least recognise the Characters that is mentioned in the Quran as Malaika/Angels.
example to one of the angels sent by Allah
He said(the angel), "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you a pure boy."

4. sincerely. with patience and a sincere mind looking for guidance. that's all I can say regarding this. it's the most basic answer I can give to anyone.

5.("some people aren't sheep&quot what makes them sheep? almost everyone I know in some way or another holds to a certain kind of ideology/way. muslims have their own ,christians have their own ,jews have their own every Tom,Dick and Harry has their own ideology/way. let's change the words rather then saying "we hear and we obey" let's say this is how I think it should be done therefore I'm doing it. let's break it down for further understanding.
Muslim first stage(not a muslim yet) second stage(found Islam) Third stage(studied) four(he trust his decision on taking Islam as a way. for having submitted and believe he's taken Allah as Judge. he thinks/trust this is the right way so he's going for it ).
Harry first stage(wants to buy a new phone) second stage (found an article about Mobile phones ) third stage(he trust his decision based on the article he reads ) fourth (he trust his decision after reading the article he's going for it).
I don't know that much but I do believe that the punishment for fornicators/adulterers is to be sentenced only to muslims?
muslims who have also submitted themselves. I don't know if the punishment is to be extended to people of other faiths.

6.regarding the jews and Allah forbidding them some of the food which was allowed for them before. I don't know much of how the story goes. I don't know if they were generations upon generations after Allah saved them first and put his favour upon them. maybe the ban was for a people of that time and that time only? I'm sorry but I'm afraid to comment on things I don't really know about.

yes, every matter should be investigated especially one as big as this. of course it wouldn't be a good decision to accept things blindly.
I would like to say that I don't know everything. even though I pride myself by saying I'm a muslim I haven't actually read the whole Quran. which is actually dangerous for me to reply to people and expect my answers to be of any use. but I like to communicate.
now coming back to your question. why Allah does not intervene to stop poverty and such. maybe Allah has helped individual person I don't know. I certainly haven't asked. but maybe when we do ask the people Allah helped most of us will probably think "ah there's nothing to it" now, why don't Allah just saves the world? I do believe according to the Quran this is a test.

this is my personal view(this similitude I'm about to give is probably mentioned in the Quran if memory serves me right) I am afraid to be of those that are ungrateful because I have been given a healthy form/body. imagine me the fully proportionate male with a chicken on one hand and a newspaper on the other. while saddened by the current happenings of the world I am enjoying a piece of chicken. now picture a person crying while enjoying a chicken. when I see myself like that I can't help but cringe.

it's the same as asking why create poverty in the first place. or why test us. refer to my reply above number 7. I don't think it's okay. I've read the story of Prophet Lot and his people. I would also recommend you to read Ibrahim's story I find him to be very easy to relate to. Allah being our Creator and all, he sure knows how we feel and what is in the chest.

11.(Allah did not answer the Angel's question)
maybe there is none, maybe they can't comprehend or maybe it's just me not finish reading the Quran.

lastly I would say, read the Quran chapter by chapter verse by verse. I have so many questions sometimes. if you have question regarding the Quran read the Quran. step by step. May you be of those that are Guided to a path that leads straight.
Salam wherever you are.

Note )
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled He said "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #124)

this is a link to search truth for more verses concerning Prophet Ibrahim
http//www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=Abraham&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&search_word=all&start=0&records_display=10&phonetic=

compare all the translations.

[good_logic]

Peace Assassino.

I will not do you a long post. I will pick only 2 random points from your last post and try to answer the query/idea?

1- Quote It depends on what you teach your child. If you teach your child that God exists, and everyones destiny is heaven and hell depending on your actions, then you could class that as indoctrination. Neither of these things can be proven but a naive child would take it as fact if taught as such from an early age - children are efficient learners.

No! You could argue there is no escape from " indoctrination". But the child will eventually choose his/her own direction.( take you as an example). The only one who is in complete control is the CREATOR.

2-QuoteI find Judgement day hard to believe in simply because there no evidence to support it.

Why is there death then? I find the fact that we all die must be " evidence" that we will be accountable for sure? you see, you and me and all of us going back to our CREATOR! If you say that is not the case, stop yourself from dying then or give a better reason why we die ?

Peace.

[seekingtruth]

Salam assissino

When I read this topic, it shocked me how close your views are to my own. I can say that im in exactly your position at the moment.
If im bieng honest, if listed all my views and methodology, no doubt people would consider me athiest; which for me is the default position i.e not believing or taking true unless you have valid justification/evidence to do so. This justification/evidence is different for different people, some set the bar low and some like myself are very meticulous. So don't feel to disheartened at labels; like other posters have said labels dont really tell the whole story. One thing im grateful i learnt from quran only islam and this forum is to challenge ideas and question.

I have the same view with regards sex outside of marriage. I would however like to bring up the issue of STD's, it is obvious to state that their is a greater risk to catch std's when one sleeps around, but however the cause of the problem is not random sex, however it lies in bieng unaware that the person carries a std. Awareness and cause of the problems are the issues and those linking them to sleeping around is abit naive.

Marriage has come up alot for me as ive got to a stage where i'd like to start a family. the worrying thing is that i myself feel incompatible with many religious people. Open-mindness and tolerence i have noticed is more prevelant amongst free thinkers, those who reflect and study tend to be alot more suitable for me atleast. This rarely occurs among devoutly religious people and that is the problem for me. Say you marry a devout sunni/christian/hindu/anti-thiest etc and you have kids, you may indeed be open minded however if you significant other is really devout they will definitely enforce there views on kids. The issue boils down how invested the person is in there beliefs and whether those beliefs allow for them think outside of box.

to reply to your views on miracles. This is what has been the pivotal for me recently. When i first started quran only islam miracles i accepted as a package included with the power of God but chose not to devout time to studying it. I only took up interest in miracles recently when sunni's were flashing around hadiths as proofs of miracles and scientific miracles in the quran. This got me curious.

First we need to define what we mean by miracle ;-

1. a highly improbable but still possible event/occurance e.g falling from a tall building and surviving.
2. an impossible event/occurance which goes against the "laws" that we know govern our reality e.g an actual headless man walking and talking with his head in his arms.

In the case of 1 there are several claims that can fall in to this category, however you need to be aware that this implies that it is able to be explained and examined using science, if not they fall to second category.

Majority of the miracle claims of a religious nature fall in to the second. This is where the problems starts for me. Depending on how one defines God (its pointless otherwise), I'd say for purposes of this, God is limitless/boundless and cannot be comprehended meaning literally God can do absolutely anything. So it is in Gods ability to do the virgin birth.
now here's the thing the quran states that in few places that God does not go against our reality i.e his decree is unchanging (feel free to correct me if im wrong, cant remember the relevant verses might be mistaken), he can but he doesn't becuase of the business of free will etc. However he also states that he shows signs to us for those who believe and these signs include the virgin birth. Jesus was concieved from literally nothing and is like occurance of Adam from nothing ( im aware this is not the only interpretation). We know this from our understanding of reality that this feat is not only impossible but cannot be tested or reproduced. If reality tells us such a thing is impossible and untestable then how is one able to attest to an event such as the virgin birth even happening. Im told its a sign of God and fair enough but thats the same as me telling someone I the hear voices in my head which gives the correct lottery numbers but i choose not to play them. this is also a circular reasoning because God then requires us to believe to believe. When i need a good evidence to believe as a basis.

My view on the punishments in the quran seem to be very excessive and in particular the punishment for disbelievers in hell. The problem for me ties in with the concept of free will and it the following applies to the concept of hell in general for "sinful" acts

1. Did God create hell? according to the Quran i'd say yes.
2. Did God create the criteria by which the universe works and how souls are judged? according to the quran i'd say yes. He set the rules of reality and he set the rules of who goes to heaven and hell.
   3 Does anything happen that goes against God will or does anything occur independantly of God (something that God is NOT aware of)?
   according to the quran id say no. God is omniscient etc.
   4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling. This also leads the question of how does one realise he is rightly guided? Like you said alot of question do go unanswered when going from sunni to quran only islam.

Id like to say something about faith. After years of contemplation ive realised in my own view that faith really isn't a pathway to truth. It for me gives me something to believe i have no good reasons to believe. For me in my sunni days it made me quite biased toward favorable sources and jump to conclusion. When i came to quran only i only kept faith in God but made a biased assumption that the quran was the word of God without any justification to do so. So here i am in a poition to evaluate the quran is what it say it is. and honestly its not looking very good.

Ive realised if God exists then he will exist regardless if the quran is true or not. For me my main desire is to know what is true and not what i want to be true, and that is a decision you yourself have to make.

My advise would be go first through the different arguments for GOD. Ontological and so on and also go through the oppositions to them also. then decide do you believe God exist or not. If you feel you like the idea of God then go and read up on various religions that interest you but remember be aware of the jump one can make from saying there is a god to quran is the word of God with no justification, its easy trap to fall in to.

Id also like to add that the quran itself is the claim and CANNOT be used as the proof of itself. by that i mean saying the quran is the word of god because it says it is the word of god is not proof. also contrary to what some may believe you cannot use the quran itself as a proof of GOD because you first have to prove God exists before attribute something to Him. Thats where you have to decide whether you believe god exists or not and analyse the quran to see whether it is the word of God, which i myself have doubts about

Good luck on your journey to truth.

Peace peace

[justamuslim]

4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling.

So per your reasoning, it is God who led you to write this post? Is that what you are saying? What you are saying is that you are not responsible for your actions. If that is the case, why would you bother suggesting that one seek the truth himself. According to what you said, it is God who ultimately leads you to say or do things. Basically, you are not responsible for your actions taking any accountability. I wonder how well your reasoning will hold in people's court if I were to break the law and claim that God led me to do it. Don't you think that the whole idea of punishment for breaking the law is ridiculous if it is God who leads us astray in the first place? Why would the police hold me responsible and accountable if I were to violate the law of the land when it is God who lead me to violate in the first place?

[hawk99]

I wonder how well your reasoning will hold in people's court if I were to break the law and claim that God led me to do it. Don't you think that the whole idea of punishment for breaking the law is ridiculous if it is God who leads us astray in the first place? Why would the police hold me responsible and accountable if I were to violate the law of the land when it is God who lead me to violate in the first place?

Agreed

Those who do not believe in free will can only postulate so in the absence of logic and
the denial of human experience.

Peace O0

[inquisitivetrini]

Peace all,

About the whole Hell thing, God's system is a deterministic system from what I understand. This article breaks down the terms "whom He wills" and "If He had willed". This will give you a better understanding as to why we do indeed have free choice.

http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice

Here's another, shorter explanation to why free choice exists http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485

I hope this clears things up for the people who read it.

Peace! yay

[justamuslim]

I don't get the atheist reasoning/logic or lack there of. One hand atheist reject God having issues with punishment stating that it was God who willed and lead people to go astray and that humans don't really have free will to choose. Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

So free will exists only in the absence of God? I don't get it.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

[Lookitup]

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

hi,I'm not an atheist but let me try and answer some of your questions.

1. I believe what they are having trouble with is the idea of an eternal punishment. or things like flogging the fornicator.
   (head to my reply above to read my understanding on the matter.)

the word atheist is used to describe a person not believing in a Creator. therefore he does not believe in the Hereafter. a Person either Theist or Atheist would all agree on the idea of "Action = consequence" action equals consequence.. but since the Atheist doesn't believe in the consequence or punishment of the hereafter then yes, indeed he do believe that after death the person that committed the crime will get away free. people comes in all different shapes and colours with different way of viewing things.
if a person doesn't believe in the punishment of the hereafter it does not mean that fairness or justice don't matter to him/her.

lastly I would say, All knowledge is with Allah.
Peace.

P.S, I'm sorry I got a habit of replying to topics that I don't fully know about. I haven't finish reading the Quran and I hope not to represent the Book of Allah in the wrong way. so please, to anyone that read my replies. read the Quran step by step to really know what is written.

[seekingtruth]

Salam justamuslim

I understand the point you are making, that one can relinquish all responsibilty and in a sense blame GOD for there actions. Im sure you are aware that there are alot of people who say God told them to do something which one may see as morally wrong.

What i wrote about hell is my current understanding of what i've come across so far with the conditions i found in the quran. I may be wrong and i appreciate reading other peoples views on such topics.

What i'd like to clarify is that this all depends on the assumption that GOD exists. I could perhaps explain better if you could clarify your own position on what attributes/nature this GOD has. I feel it would dishonest of me to assume definitions if you do not agree with them.
Are Gods attributes knowable (to some extent atleast)?
Do you think God is Omniscient?
Do you think God is omnipotent?
How much do you believe God interferes with our reality/existence/world/universe?
What is your position on pre-destination?

when i say free will, what i am refering to is the choices people make.
would you agree with this definition?

I wholeheartedly agree that we do have choices we can make. The thing is our choices are governed by the enviroment we live in and the choices we make to reflect this ,would you agree with this statement. I was highlighting that in the condition that God exists and understanding the quran atleast in sunni islam and some understandings of the quran leads to a blatent contradiction of God will and our own will.

I can only speak for myself when i say that i dont reject God because i have problems with punishment etc. I just as of yet have not come across valid reasons outside of "faith" to believe the Quran version of God exists.

Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

From this i assume your alluding to where do those who dont believe the quran version of GOD exists (or if he does exist and does not intefere at all) where does one get the sense of morality from. How do we conclude what is right and wrong. correct me if im wrong.
This is an interesting question.

Speaking for myself briefly, i get my own sense of right and wrong from an understanding of reality and not assertion of authority. I form my limits with the rational considerations of my own actions and what affect these actions have on others. Do we have a right impose our will on those around us and what will the consequenses be if we do so. People will always do something that will impact negatively and they will suffer the consequenses of their actions.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

For me atleast the disturbing thing about eternal punishment, essentailly i could be punished for eternity for simply not having sufficient reasons to believe or that i lack faith. do i deserve any sort of punishment?

I want to believe but there are so little reasons to do it. theres no way to demonstrate to any degree of certainty if is true so it just falls back on faith. like i said in earlier post faith is what people say when they have no good or actual reason to believe something. if you have a reason to do something you dont need faith.

If we are to live cooperatively on this planet and atleast to survive to further generations we need to understand and consider actions that will enable us to successfully acheive this goal. For example from history we can conclude certian actions are deemed bad for survival as a community and species. this is where we get what is right and wrong. Mass murder, war, genocide etc impact negatively on society. weve got to a point in society that their is alot more knowlegde and our understanding of the world is increasing. We moving away from the ignorance of reality and the result is positive.

assuming that this is our only life then the consequences obviously only hold true in this life.
Why does there have to be a need for an extra justice. Id like to believe theres an ultimate justice but in the end it is just speculation of sometthing that may or may not happen. So a person may get away scott free without further punishment if there is no hell. what will one do, hope that it exists. hoping doesnt make it happen.

id like to clarify my own postion is a position that rejects claims that have not met their burden of proof.

peace peace

[StopS]

I don't get the atheist reasoning/logic or lack there of. One hand atheist reject God having issues with punishment stating that it was God who willed and lead people to go astray and that humans don't really have free will to choose. Ok if it is God who leads us astray then removing God from the equation, what explanation do the atheist provide for those who do bad things when God and satan are removed from the equation.

So free will exists only in the absence of God? I don't get it.

Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?

You are not alone with your confusion. ;D

An atheist cannot "reject" a god.
You, a theist, believe that evidence for the existence of god exists.
An atheist does not. That's all.
So an atheist can't reject something for which he sees no evidence.

I personally have a problem with the concept that making love to a woman should result in eternal punishment, torture and pain, when we were both consenting adults and only did something very natural. I also have a problem with the concept of choosing and selecting who gets rewarded, based on a whim. That is my personal attitude.

Free will is different. This is a logical problem. You can't have free will and omniscience together. Also, an atheist also has, what is called "free will". So what's the difference between having choices and being able to do what one wants and "free will"? None. So "free will" as such does not exist.

Atheists don't make claims, they react to religious statements. Is there any proof a person is "bad" due to the influence of god or satan? No. Humans are good, neutral or bad. By nature.

Religions are human-based. Humans have learned over time what is good and bad, or what is beneficial or detrimental. Which is why we have laws and a society which dictates the norms, often based on those religions. Living in this society I am governed by those rules and face the consequence if I break them. If a man rapes a woman, the DNA can be used to provide evidence and the man is punished. What does the Koran use? The testimony of four others and if none exist the man can swear 4 times himself. No further evidence required.

Now to the point where you pose excellent questions, in my eyes. What happens if a criminal gets away? An atheist can only hope that fairness and the conscience prevails and that the human dominates and faces the consequences. If not that person gets away without punishment. In Islam, the person also gets away. But other Muslims hope that the criminal will be punished by Allah, who knows about this. But then, he already knew this criminal would be a criminal during creation and created the criminal anyway.

Now the issue crops up where a believer who is a bad person will be rewarded and the non-believer who is a good person will be punished. THAT's where the problems creep in. What do you think about this?

If I have misunderstood something, please correct me. I welcome any constructive criticism and try and learn what people here are teaching me.

[Lookitup]

You are not alone with your confusion. ;D

An atheist cannot "reject" a god.
You, a theist, believe that evidence for the existence of god exists.
An atheist does not. That's all.
So an atheist can't reject something for which he sees no evidence.

I personally have a problem with the concept that making love to a woman should result in eternal punishment, torture and pain, when we were both consenting adults and only did something very natural. I also have a problem with the concept of choosing and selecting who gets rewarded, based on a whim. That is my personal attitude.

Free will is different. This is a logical problem. You can't have free will and omniscience together. Also, an atheist also has, what is called "free will". So what's the difference between having choices and being able to do what one wants and "free will"? None. So "free will" as such does not exist.

Atheists don't make claims, they react to religious statements. Is there any proof a person is "bad" due to the influence of god or satan? No. Humans are good, neutral or bad. By nature.

Religions are human-based. Humans have learned over time what is good and bad, or what is beneficial or detrimental. Which is why we have laws and a society which dictates the norms, often based on those religions. Living in this society I am governed by those rules and face the consequence if I break them. If a man rapes a woman, the DNA can be used to provide evidence and the man is punished. What does the Koran use? The testimony of four others and if none exist the man can swear 4 times himself. No further evidence required.

Now to the point where you pose excellent questions, in my eyes. What happens if a criminal gets away? An atheist can only hope that fairness and the conscience prevails and that the human dominates and faces the consequences. If not that person gets away without punishment. In Islam, the person also gets away. But other Muslims hope that the criminal will be punished by Allah, who knows about this. But then, he already knew this criminal would be a criminal during creation and created the criminal anyway.

Now the issue crops up where a believer who is a bad person will be rewarded and the non-believer who is a good person will be punished. THAT's where the problems creep in. What do you think about this?

If I have misunderstood something, please correct me. I welcome any constructive criticism and try and learn what people here are teaching me.

hi StopS, could you point me to the number of that verse and chapter? thanks.
this is just my understanding which may or may not be wrong.
Allah reveals the messengers for a specific people to a specific time and place. for example, at the time of Adam the rules and way to conduct things might be different. the Quran was given to Prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago, at the time DNA testing is non existent. therefore people have to practise whatever method that is best. now with DNA testing available I think there is no problem utilizing this method.

[justamuslim]

Ok what if the rapist used condom and left no DNA evidence or the victim was not able to report the incident until a later time when DNA evidence could not be collected or the rapist claimed that the sex was consensual when it was clearly not, then the rapist gets away? How about in wars when women and children are raped by soldiers? The rapist gets away without any punishment. As an atheist doesn't believe in the afterlife then, basically the rapist gets away and there is no justice to the victims.

I don't know where you get this understanding that in Islam, the person also gets away? And that God creates evil? If this your understanding, clearly you are in the wrong. Nobody gets away in Islam. May be in this life but surely not in the life hereafter. God created a man who may grow up and rape but he did not create him a rapist.

Also where do you get this understanding that who gets rewarded or punished is based on whim? From the Koran?

Ok so an atheist cannot reject a God as he doesn't see any evidence. Can he disprove the existence of God though? Can an atheist prove that there is no afterlife and there is no God?

As a theist, my belief in God is not based on some evidence or lack there of. Unlike an atheist, I am not as sure that this life is it and that there is no afterlife. No one has yet died and come back to tell me that for sure. No one can provide evidence of existence of an afterlife or not. This is a statement of fact.

An atheist is sure of his beliefs based on lack of evidence that there is no afterlife. An atheist chooses not to believe whereas I choose to believe. If indeed there is an afterlife, why should an atheist be rewarded when he didn't believe in heaven in the first place? An atheist however good he might have done by nature as you say did not believe in God and in the heavens, so why then should he deserve a place in heavan? Well, this is my personal feelings.

Not saying that he should be punished for not believing but I like to be able to say, Nya Nya I was right and you were wrong. Now don't you feel awfully stupid? I get to be in heavan and you dont. Personally if you ask me, I don't think atheist should be rewarded. Why should they be rewarded with heaven when they chose not to believe? Do you have any convincing argument for why atheist who chose not to believe in the afterlife should be rewarded? If two persons of equal footing who had done good but one is a theist and another an atheist, should both be rewarded equally? Why do you think they should? Personally, I don't think an atheist should be rewarded the same. I would say well good for you that you did all these good deed as it was in your nature to do so but sorry, why should you now want to be rewarded with heaven when you didn't believe in the first place?

If an atheist is right about no God, no afterlife then well it has been good spending time debating with you and death will be the end. The difference between me a theist and an atheist is that I am not as certain as an atheist about there not being an afterlife after death which is a certain thing. That's the difference my friend.

[StopS]

hi StopS, could you point me to the number of that verse and chapter? thanks.

For what part?

this is just my understanding which may or may not be wrong.
Allah reveals the messengers for a specific people to a specific time and place. for example, at the time of Adam the rules and way to conduct things might be different. the Quran was given to Prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago, at the time DNA testing is non existent. therefore people have to practise whatever method that is best. now with DNA testing available I think there is no problem utilizing this method.

I thought the Koran was for all days and ages.
I know that instead of DNA testing, the Koran mentions slapping a corpse with a piece of steak to get up and reveal the murderer. (268ff)

So you say that in Adam's "time" whenever that was, things were different. In Muhammad's days, things were different again (wasn't Muhammad a messenger, not a prophet?). And today things are different again. So why not a messenger for today?

[noshirk]

Salam all.

I've been having a lot of doubts...about everything, not recently but since a year or so now. I thought I had found sanctuary in being a Quran Alone Muslim after I started doubting Sunnism. Some things I have belief in (or rather lack of) go in direct contradiction of Quranic/Islamic teaching, such as...

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
3. I don't believe in angels.
4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

Salaam Assassino

too much questions for me
i will respond to the first
For me, you are more muslim than you were but only God decide who is muslim and who is not.
Your questions are good questions. They are normal questions for someone who "thinks". They are difficult questions.

Responses are in quran but you have to work, read quran with a new brain and, propbably, you will discover that some of your questions are false questions.
If you don't know arabic, you have to remember that you are putting faith in the traductor.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
    NO. You are rejecting teachings of false teachers.

Peace

[StopS]

Ok what if the rapist used condom and left no DNA evidence or the victim was not able to report the incident until a later time when DNA evidence could not be collected or the rapist claimed that the sex was consensual when it was clearly not, then the rapist gets away? How about in wars when women and children are raped by soldiers? The rapist gets away without any punishment. As an atheist doesn't believe in the afterlife then, basically the rapist gets away and there is no justice to the victims.

Thank you, yes, that is what I said later. What about the other 90% of what I said?

I don't know where you get this understanding that in Islam, the person also gets away?

And seek forgiveness of Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate. 7320
And those who pray for forgiveness in the early hours of the morning. 317
And whoever does evil, or wrongs his own soul, but afterwards seeks Allah?s forgiveness, will find Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate. 4110

Do you need more?

And that God creates evil?

If any good reaches them, they say, ?This is from Allah,? but if any evil befalls them, they say, ?This happened because of you.? Say ?All things are from Allah.? What is wrong with these people that they do not understand any word? 478
The Creator of everything is Allah 3962
This is Allah, your Lord, the Creator of everything 4062

If this your understanding, clearly you are in the wrong.

No, this is from the Koran, not me. It does not say Allah created everything - except evil. Evil is part of everything.

God created a man who may grow up and rape but he did not create him a rapist.

No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah, is easy 5722

Also where do you get this understanding that who gets rewarded or punished is based on whim? From the Koran?

Of course, where else? Can I make this up? No, the Koran says, if I remember correctly that some are guided and some are not and if someone asks, anything can be forgiven - well, except having another god that is.

Ok so an atheist cannot reject a God as he doesn't see any evidence. Can he disprove the existence of God though? Can an atheist prove that there is no afterlife and there is no God?

Of course not. And an atheist does not have to.

You make a claim, you prove it.

As a theist, my belief in God is not based on some evidence or lack there of. Unlike an atheist, I am not as sure that this life is it and that there is no afterlife. No one has yet died and come back to tell me that for sure. No one can provide evidence of existence of an afterlife or not. This is a statement of fact.

That is the same for me. Where do you get your knowledge about atheists from? Are you making this up? Is this what you think?

An atheist is sure of his beliefs based on lack of evidence that there is no afterlife.

Wrong. Where do you get this stuff? Theism is the lack of a belief. Not the opposite!

An atheist chooses not to believe whereas I choose to believe.

Also wrong! I just want to know that what I believe I have a reason to believe it. Give me evidence and I will believe wherever the evidence leads me.

If indeed there is an afterlife, why should an atheist be rewarded when he didn't believe in heaven in the first place? An atheist however good he might have done by nature as you say did not believe in God and in the heavens, so why then should he deserve a place in heavan? Well, this is my personal feelings.

Oh really? So a good person who grew up in South America where they have no gods automatically goes to hell? A good person living in Krakow in Poland who simply believes what his parents tell him will go to hell for not changing his god? Anyone who lives outside the influence sphere of Islam goes to hell, for not being a Muslim? And a Muslim, who rapes and kills and then asks for forgiveness will be rewarded in heaven?

You sure have a weird and warped sense of justice. Oh and just to make something clear I am talking about people who know about Islam and the Koran.

Not saying that he should be punished for not believing but I like to be able to say, Nya Nya I was right and you were wrong.

I was right! Just so that you can do a childish Nya Nya, a human who has done only good will be punished forever.

Now don't you feel awfully stupid? I get to be in heavan and you dont. Personally if you ask me, I don't think atheist should be rewarded. Why should they be rewarded with heaven when they chose not to believe? Do you have any convincing argument for why atheist who chose not to believe in the afterlife should be rewarded?

No, I feel revolted.

If two persons of equal footing who had done good but one is a theist and another an atheist, should both be rewarded equally? Why do you think they should? Personally, I don't think an atheist should be rewarded the same. I would say well good for you that you did all these good deed as it was in your nature to do so but sorry, why should you now want to be rewarded with heaven when you didn't believe in the first place?

Yes, of course they should. In fact, the deeds of the atheist should have a higher reward, as the good deeds were done out of compassion and empathy and not due to fear of punishment.

If an atheist is right about no God, no afterlife then well it has been good spending time debating with you and death will be the end. The difference between me a theist and an atheist is that I am not as certain as an atheist about there not being an afterlife after death which is a certain thing. That's the difference my friend.

giveup

[seekingtruth]

Salam All

Ok what if the rapist used condom and left no DNA evidence or the victim was not able to report the incident until a later time when DNA evidence could not be collected or the rapist claimed that the sex was consensual when it was clearly not, then the rapist gets away? How about in wars when women and children are raped by soldiers? The rapist gets away without any punishment. As an atheist doesn't believe in the afterlife then, basically the rapist gets away and there is no justice to the victims.

shouldn't the goal be that we should try to irradicate the act of rape and other heinous crimes and figuring out way to actually achieve justice in reality. Yes we cannot always achieve justice but is this not more reason to attempt to find ways we can. the threat of punishment in an afterlife is not necessarily going to prevent these act from actually happening. There are countless amount of devout religious people who believe in afterlife hell that still commit atrocities. Some may believe that they will be forgiven by God if they genuinely remorseful, in their view they may be getting off lightly

Ok so an atheist cannot reject a God as he doesn't see any evidence. Can he disprove the existence of God though? Can an atheist prove that there is no afterlife and there is no God?

As a theist, my belief in God is not based on some evidence or lack there of. Unlike an atheist, I am not as sure that this life is it and that there is no afterlife. No one has yet died and come back to tell me that for sure. No one can provide evidence of existence of an afterlife or not. This is a statement of fact.

An atheist is sure of his beliefs based on lack of evidence that there is no afterlife. An atheist chooses not to believe whereas I choose to believe.

The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim "that God exist and there is an afterlife". Athiest as far as i'm aware do not assert that there is no God, just there is a lack of evidence for one. Also one should be aware that although how hard they may try, one can NOT prove a negative.

If ones belief in God is not based on evidence then what makes a person rule out every other religious belief that is contrary to their own. Most belief systems outright contradict each other and their claims can also NOT be disproven.

The possibility of a God and all beliefs associated with it; may be true. But that is the case with Zues, Odin and Vishnu etc and associated beliefs, existance of these are also possibilities if one can not prove thier non existence in order to reject them. One has to realise at some point that these possibilties are as many as the human mind can come up with. Therefore the onus falls on only accepting claim that can actually be proven or else they all remain in the land of possibilities and fiction.

Athiests do not choose not to believe, but their is actually no reason to believe. Same way there is no reason to believe Santa, the tooth fairy etc because theres no evidence to support them to be true. Or should the position be, believe until thier non existence is proved.

Not saying that he should be punished for not believing but I like to be able to say, Nya Nya I was right and you were wrong. Now don't you feel awfully stupid? I get to be in heavan and you dont. Personally if you ask me, I don't think atheist should be rewarded. Why should they be rewarded with heaven when they chose not to believe? Do you have any convincing argument for why atheist who chose not to believe in the afterlife should be rewarded? If two persons of equal footing who had done good but one is a theist and another an atheist, should both be rewarded equally? Why do you think they should? Personally, I don't think an atheist should be rewarded the same. I would say well good for you that you did all these good deed as it was in your nature to do so but sorry, why should you now want to be rewarded with heaven when you didn't believe in the first place?

If an atheist is right about no God, no afterlife then well it has been good spending time debating with you and death will be the end. The difference between me a theist and an atheist is that I am not as certain as an atheist about there not being an afterlife after death which is a certain thing. That's the difference my friend.

I don't know how people can say to someone you deserve to be tormented forever for simply not believing and still try and take the moral high ground. And add to that we chose to go to hell, Well we don't choose to go to hell, just as you would not choose to go to hell because you did not believe in Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.

Are you trying to imply that the Gullibility is a fair criteria that God judges by. Well if one feels that rational, well reasoned evidence based beliefs should be punished with torment and gullibility rewarded with paradise. what can one say other than good luck in your endeavors -.

People should be encouraged to hold as many true/accurate beliefs as possible and in order to do this you hold beliefs that can actually be proven/accurate to be true.

It is good to discuss issues because believe it or not beliefs shape people actions and this makes it important to atleast hold accurate beliefs.

Are you open to the idea of no afterlife, if not then you actually have more certianty than atheists. I am open to the possibility of an afterlife but is it probable not unless there is actual evidence for it. possible and probable are not the same, the latter can be atleast asserted with some credible evidence, the former is endless non evidence based assertions.

peace peace

[justamuslim]

Salam All

shouldn't the goal be that we should try to irradicate the act of rape and other heinous crimes and figuring out way to actually achieve justice in reality. Yes we cannot always achieve justice but is this not more reason to attempt to find ways we can. the threat of punishment in an afterlife is not necessarily going to prevent these act from actually happening. There are countless amount of devout religious people who believe in afterlife hell that still commit atrocities. Some may believe that they will be forgiven by God if they genuinely remorseful, in their view they may be getting off lightly

How do you propose we eradicate crimes? Unrealistic goal. Again doesnt address justice. basically what you are saying is people will get away. Not just the afterlife but punishment in this life hasn't prevented crimes. So atheist on one hand find hell appalling but the other hand find forgiveness to be appalling as well. A believer who genuinely feels remorseful is not thinking about getting off. Genuine remorse imples he feels bad for what he had done to those he had hurt which often is liberating to the victims. His remorse is not for himself and his suffering but for the suffering he had caused others. As a theist, my view is not that I will be getting off lightly.

If ones belief in God is not based on evidence then what makes a person rule out every other religious belief that is contrary to their own. Most belief systems outright contradict each other and their claims can also NOT be disproven.

Read my post on the other thread about evidence. Let's suppose the truth is earth is spherical. Just because people didn't have evidence for years of this fact, means the earth is not spherical? You can have multiple beliefs with each claiming they are right with proofs, arguments that the earth is flat, frisbee shaped, square, contradicting each other but people's beliefs doesnt change the one truth that the earth is spherical. The truth is not based on people's beliefs. Just because a man cannot prove that the earth is spherical does that mean that the earth is not?

Therefore the onus falls on only accepting claim that can actually be proven or else they all remain in the land of possibilities and fiction.

I don't think you quite get it. Just because in your mind you dont have the proof that you need or whatever evidence you are looking for you can't find for existence of God, doesn't mean that God doesn't exists. You can have multiple beliefs of God like multiple theories about the shape of earth but that doesn't change the Truth.

Athiests do not choose not to believe, but their is actually no reason to believe. Same way there is no reason to believe Santa, the tooth fairy etc because theres no evidence to support them to be true. Or should the position be, believe until thier non existence is proved.

You don't have to have a reason to believe that the earth is spherical. You can believe in the truth or falsehood till you come to see the truth. Just the same, you can have no reason not to believe in the existence of God. You can hold onto false beliefs till you see the truth.

I don't know how people can say to someone you deserve to be tormented forever for simply not believing and still try and take the moral high ground. And add to that we chose to go to hell, Well we don't choose to go to hell, just as you would not choose to go to hell because you did not believe in Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.

Why do you think that as an atheist who doesn't believe in God and in the afterlife should then deserve to be in heaven? According to you hell and heaven don't exist. So your question doesn't make sense unless you believe that hell exists but having issues with who goes to heaven and hell?

Now you are mixing things with Jesus. Ok- either God had a son with a human mother or not. It is the truth or the lie. If it is the truth that god did not have a son then, I chose to believe in the truth. I am not going to hell for believing in the truth. I have been told by Christians that I won't go to heaven till I accept Jesus and will be kept in limbo till I did. I don't argue with them, questioning and having problems with their beliefs. I cannot choose to go to limbo when limbo doesn't exist. Others can claim whatever but that doesn't make it true. Members of flat eath society claim that the earth is flat but does it make it flat. If i claim the earth is spherical and if is the truth then i am right in my claims.

As an atheist according to you there's no hell or heaven. So why are arguing with theists? Having problems with who goes to hell and heaven? According to you, there is no hell and so why do you have a problem with theist beliefs as according to you theist is believing in something that doesn't exist. According to Atheits, we are all delusional. why are you worried about delusional beliefs of going to hell? as according to you, Hell doesnt exist and you are going nowhere. You don't believe that life hereafter exists but what you are saying that if it does, then you want to be rewarded questioning the moral grounds of theist who doesn't think you deserve heaven. Does this even make any sense? For someone claiming to be rational and well reasoned, sure defies logic to me here.

According to you does hell and heaven exist or not? Listen got a problem with atheist going to hell, simple stop being an atheist and start being a theist.

Are you trying to imply that the Gullibility is a fair criteria that God judges by. Well if one feels that rational, well reasoned evidence based beliefs should be punished with torment and gullibility rewarded with paradise. what can one say other than good luck in your endeavors -.

Thanks and I'd rather be gullible than arrogant, egotistical, deaf, dumb and blind. .

People should be encouraged to hold as many true/accurate beliefs as possible and in order to do this you hold beliefs that can actually be proven/accurate to be true.

Prophet held the belief that the earth was spherical. Should he have held onto the belief that earth is not because he couldn't actually prove it to be true. There are still people who don't believe earth is spherical as they dismiss pictures as fakes. You can show all the evidence but they will not be convinced and believe discarding your proofs till he has himself gone to space and seen earth to be spherical.

It is good to discuss issues because believe it or not beliefs shape people actions and this makes it important to atleast hold accurate beliefs.

Are you open to the idea of no afterlife, if not then you actually have more certianty than atheists. I am open to the possibility of an afterlife but is it probable not unless there is actual evidence for it. possible and probable are not the same, the latter can be atleast asserted with some credible evidence, the former is endless non evidence based assertions.

No, I am not open to the idea of no afterlife just as I am not open to the idea that earth is not spherical. If the truth is God exist, there is afterlife - it sure doesnt make any sense for me to deny what is real. Just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean afterlife doesn't exists.

peace peace

[Seek_Peace]

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me.

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
   And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
   I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe. But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures. As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

3. I don't believe in angels.
   This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
   Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
   On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it) http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html

5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
   If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators
   "The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 242

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 244

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
   I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test. In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.

7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
   Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this

"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 660

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens

"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 2265

"Allah certainly holds together the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 3541

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 189-1813. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
   This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
   He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.

10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
    In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.

11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
    I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
    God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.

13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
    In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
    A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

[Seek_Peace]

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me. P

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
   And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
   I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe. But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures. As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

3. I don't believe in angels.
   This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
   Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
   On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it) http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html

5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
   If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators
   "The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 242

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 244

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
   I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test. In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.

7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
   Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this

"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 660

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens

"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 2265

"Allah certainly holds together the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 3541

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 189-1813. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
   This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
   He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.

10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
    In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.

11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
    I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
    God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.

13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
    In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
    A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...
Are you trying to just find happiness or are you earnestly trying to learn and find the truth? Don't hold on to something just because it's been in your life, I think it's good to be willing to change some beliefs if you find ones that are more true. For example, I was raised being told that if you do harm to others, you take some of their bad deeds and they take your good. And if someone does harm to you, you get some of their good deeds and they take your bad. In reading the Qur'an, I found there was no basis on this. I also found that there was no basis for the belief of Prophet Jesus returning, on praying a certain way, on wearing the hijab, I found the true meaning of prayer and fasting, among other many things. It took many readings and a lot of reflection. I could have been inclined to hold on to my prior beliefs. But I willingly confronted biases and unfounded thoughts I had, and my whole universe changed. I felt so different. To fear change in favour of something familiar is not good.

It may sound like I'm urging you to abandon Islam. And, in truth, I intend to encourage to you embrace asking questions and finding answers by reading the Qur'an, within yourself, in the world around you. Anyways, I've gone on for far too long - lol. I wish you the best, brother.

[seekingtruth]

Salam All

How do you propose we eradicate crimes? Unrealistic goal. Again doesnt address justice. basically what you are saying is people will get away.

I conceeded in my comment that we can not always find justice. What i didn't mention was justice is subjective, and what constitutes as justice differs with whoever one asks. If one does not try to live in a society that would want to eradicate crimes being commited then why set laws at all. Even if we do not achieve complete crimeless world atleast the goal is their to atleast minimise it to live in a society worth living in.

Would not a thought of an afterlife punishment, just let people say "hey you know what, people get raped, tortured etc, we shouldn't try our best to get rid of it from society because they will get there just desserts in hell".

So atheist on one hand find hell appalling but the other hand find forgiveness to be appalling as well. A believer who genuinely feels remorseful is not thinking about getting off. Genuine remorse imples he feels bad for what he had done to those he had hurt which often is liberating to the victims. His remorse is not for himself and his suffering but for the suffering he had caused others.

The issue not what someone finds appalling but the notion of perfect justice coinciding with perfect mercy. Both of these can not be achieved and are in direct contradiction. Is a genuinely remorseful man showered with god mercy and not taste hell at all. or is he thrown in hell for a set time no matter if he sincerely repented and must go through the torment even for a short time and then go to heaven. Is it possible according to the quran for a someone to be forgiven his crimes short of shirk and not go to hell even for a short time.

Read my post on the other thread about evidence. Let's suppose the truth is earth is spherical. Just because people didn't have evidence for years of this fact, means the earth is not spherical? You can have multiple beliefs with each claiming they are right with proofs, arguments that the earth is flat, frisbee shaped, square, contradicting each other but people's beliefs doesnt change the one truth that the earth is spherical. The truth is not based on people's beliefs. Just because a man cannot prove that the earth is spherical does that mean that the earth is not?

I agree people believing the earth bieng flat and have justification for doing so, does not mean the earth is flat. Some of the justification for the earth bieng flat in ancient times was that people would go to a high spot and look around in a circular motion, the distance would always be the same to the horizon and as you can see it seemed the earth would appear disk shaped. Anyone can reproduce and demonstate this; so how does one avoid this problem. You see the when it comes to multiple beliefs that have "proofs", Over the ages we have realised how one can distinguish between contradictory claims. It is called falsifiability. If someone provides evidence; we have learnt that accepting evidence/claims that can actually be falsified speeds up the process of sifting through claims. For instance Alot of religious folk do not believe in evolution. the feature of the evolution claim is that it can be falsified and the proponents of the theory have listed the criteria that would disprove evolution should the evidence pop up that matches the falsifying criteria. none as of yet have disproved evolution; so is it fair to say it is most likely true. regardless of what people think is true.

Look through many of the claims one makes and see how many of these claims have an attachment of falsifiability. if a claim cannot be demonstated false in someway it becomes pointless speculation and conjecture, (this doesn't meaning proving a negative btw because that is unfalsifiable). there is no problem with holding beliefs like this but dont go around asserting the truth of the views with out the evidence.

The quran makes claims so people are in their right to assess them, some of these claims are unfalsifiable and then can not be demonstated if they are true or false, so they become meaningless assertions e.g heaven and hell existing.

I agree that truth is not based on peoples beliefs, however what people perceive as truth is based on beliefs. we are all at some point of guilty of this, but some actually acknowledge this and minimise holding beliefs that cannot be demostrated to be true.

I don't think you quite get it. Just because in your mind you dont have the proof that you need or whatever evidence you are looking for you can't find for existence of God, doesn't mean that God doesn't exists. You can have multiple beliefs of God like multiple theories about the shape of earth but that doesn't change the Truth

I did not say that God did not exist and you still haven't realised that atheist positions is NOT God does not exist, But it is the rejection of theist claims that have not met their burden of proof. They look similar but are fundamentally different. Here's why as briefly as i can.

A theist claims God exists, we bieng in the default position say ok whats you justification/proof.
If the theist does not meet the burden of proof/evidence or it is contradictory, then we rightly dismiss thier notion that their God exists.
This does not mean god does not exist but whatever your definition of this God was/is does not exist.
This skepticism can be used for any belief.

You may quite rightly say that the God i believe is unknowable, not able to be comprehended and ultimately unfalsifiable. Let me ask you to reflect on how does one then distinguish between this God and one that does not exist.

You don't have to have a reason to believe that the earth is spherical. You can believe in the truth or falsehood till you come to see the truth. Just the same, you can have no reason not to believe in the existence of God. You can hold onto false beliefs till you see the truth.

I agree you dont have to have valid evidence based reasons to believe anything, hence there bieng bizzare beliefs all around the world and through human existence.

Indeed you can come to see the truth ,does that also include for you that God and afterlife not existing because outside of scripture everyone will not come to the same conclusion of them existing. No i disagree that i can have no reason not to believe in God, the very fact that the theist claims have not been demonstrated is a valid reason not to believe. the final part i disagree with also, this should be discouraged holding false beliefs because they can be outright dangerous. Women have suffered long enough and still suffer because of false beliefs and the list goes on. So it should be encouraged to hold beliefs that again can be demostrated to be true and accurate.

You also skipped over the part where i talked about the difference between something bieng possible and bieng probable. something that is possible isn't always probable, something probable is always possible. When one can demonstate that God is probable which starts with atleast some proof (which can be falsified), however small; then one can hold that maybe in the future it can be further proved to be true.

Why do you think that as an atheist who doesn't believe in God and in the afterlife should then deserve to be in heaven? According to you hell and heaven don't exist. So your question doesn't make sense unless you believe that hell exists but having issues with who goes to heaven and hell?

I'll try to explain why it matters what people think about hell, even if i dont think it exists.
I find it very offensive and upsetting when someone says that i will be tortured forever and/or i deserve it. heres why, if someone for instance said that i deserved currently to be shipped off to bottom of the ocean facility that does not exist and be tortured horrifically for the rest of my life simply for not agreeing with them. Then im perfectly in my right to resent peoples attitude towards what they think will happen to me after i die which is a similar sentiment. you may say well you get racial abuse and etc in real life and move on, however bieng tortured forever volutarily for simply not believing claims or not being part of a favorable group is infinitely more offensive sentiment that can not be compared with any insult that can be expressed in our lifetime.

Also are you implying that Thoughts, doubts and not bieng convinced are crimes worthy of punishment. giveup
if not then why do i deserve hell. it really is quite simple.

Now you are mixing things with Jesus. Ok- either God had a son with a human mother or not. It is the truth or the lie. If it is the truth that god did not have a son then, I chose to believe in the truth. I am not going to hell for believing in the truth. I have been told by Christians that I won't go to heaven till I accept Jesus and will be kept in limbo till I did. I don't argue with them, questioning and having problems with their beliefs. I cannot choose to go to limbo when limbo doesn't exist. Others can claim whatever but that doesn't make it true. Members of flat eath society claim that the earth is flat but does it make it flat. If i claim the earth is spherical and if is the truth then i am right in my claims.

I was just bringing an example of conflicting views. and judging from your reply it seem like you have confirmed what i suspected, you hold beliefs until they can be disproven. I highlighted in previous post as to why this is a nonsensical position because you just end up with endless possibility of beliefs and they shape your actions.

As an atheist according to you there's no hell or heaven. So why are arguing with theists? Having problems with who goes to hell and heaven? According to you, there is no hell and so why do you have a problem with theist beliefs as according to you theist is believing in something that doesn't exist. According to Atheits, we are all delusional. why are you worried about delusional beliefs of going to hell? as according to you, Hell doesnt exist and you are going nowhere. You don't believe that life hereafter exists but what you are saying that if it does, then you want to be rewarded questioning the moral grounds of theist who doesn't think you deserve heaven. Does this even make any sense? For someone claiming to be rational and well reasoned, sure defies logic to me here.

Please see above ive given example earlier. Also id like to add that skeptics want to hold true beliefs, i do not want be slaves of ignorance as that creates observable problems in societies. This is not defying logic at all because false beliefs create problems that wouldnt be there if they didnt hold them e.g sunni stoning of adulterers. Your belief in the quranic God shapes how you see the world, would one not want to know if this view is actually true and justified.

Thanks and I'd rather be gullible than arrogant, egotistical, deaf, dumb and blind.

seems that you are the one bieng arrogant and egotistical by stating that people are dumb, deaf and blind becuase they don't agree with you because they have valid reason to not agree with your assertions.

Atleast you clarified that you don't want to hold beliefs that are actually true but what you think are true and make you feel good.
i apologise if the sentence comes of offensive; there no lighter way of saying it.

Prophet held the belief that the earth was spherical. Should he have held onto the belief that earth is not because he couldn't actually prove it to be true. There are still people who don't believe earth is spherical as they dismiss pictures as fakes. You can show all the evidence but they will not be convinced and believe discarding your proofs till he has himself gone to space and seen earth to be spherical.

Im glad you mentioned this. The earth bieng round was suspected during the greek era. they observed that at the horizon the ships sank like when someone disappears over the hill. so there was justification for holding the belief.
Actually the Prophet would have had to demonstrate what he was saying is true the quran expresses as much, so therefore we examine these claims.

Like i said before about evidence and falsifiability, that really makes it alot easier to drop claims as nonsense and outright absurd. therefore one is in there right to hold beliefs that may later be proven false.

Questions and doubts lead us to truth. the problem isn't people believing the earth is flat its denial of evidence to the contrary or no evidence at all. this can be expanded to the veiw of God because one believes that God definetly exist with no evidence then they are going reject evidence which suggests there version of god is non existent.

The reason some people still believe the earth to be flat because they have polluted their mind with unfalsifiable possibilities and absurd notions of demanding proof of non existance. Ofcourse they are going to be ignorant of the truth.

No, I am not open to the idea of no afterlife just as I am not open to the idea that earth is not spherical. If the truth is God exist, there is afterlife - it sure doesnt make any sense for me to deny what is real. Just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean afterlife doesn't exists.

Basically you are expressing pascals wager and betting your chips with the quran. you can google endless articles about the problems with pascals wager. Though one can see the problems straight away with out bieng told what they are.

All i can do is promote critical thinking, reason and logic. State the importance of evidence and claims that can be falsified in some empirical way. Distance ourselves from subjectivity when truth claims are presented and examine them objectively.

The discussion is on the verge of going circular because though you have not stated it explicitly; your ultimate reliance is that you have faith that you are right. So it would be meaningless to suggest critical thinking to people who jump straight to faith.

sorry for the long read, this is not an attack on your beliefs but just an observation.

Peace peace