Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Salam Mazhar
if you read the Quran without the implanted Sunna Context, then you can understand this Aya really
Ba-Kaf-Ra =Beginning of the day, first part of the day, early morning, between daybreak and sunrise
Possessing the quality of applying oneself early, or in hastening, Performing something at the commencement of it, or doing something early, Before it's time, preceding or took precedence, Youthful male camel, young one of a camel
A virgin male or female, or anything untouched, new, fresh, Virginity or maidenhead
A woman or female animal having delivered only onceFirst flush of anything (plant, tree, fruit, honey, rain, flowers)
First born or young children
First of anything, unique action
A want or need seeking to be fulfilled
A cutting blow or stroke that kills at once
A pulley (e.g. of a well)
Small ring or bead
An assembly, company, congregated body
All coming together without exceptionthe main meaning is clear new, fresh, pure, how the same word can mean a
, Virginity or maidenheadOR
A woman or female animal having delivered only once[/b????? hypnoThe out of context references to these verses is unfortunately abused by both Muslims and polemics of the Quran.
Read in context and carefully analysed, one notes that there is no reference to ?Hurs? in these verses and the complete purport of the message is a reference to all of the companions of the right hand, both male and female (Those that will inherit the kingdom of heaven) (56.27). These verses inform the reader, that the people of the right hand will be recreated as a new creation (56.35) as virgins untouched (56.36) and of similar age (56.37). All this is for the people of the right hand (56.37).Let us note the verses in context.
056.027-34
?The Companions of the Right Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Right Hand? (They will be) among Lote-trees without thorns. Among tall trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another. In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in abundance. Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden, And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high?056.035
?Lo? We have created them a (New Creation)?
There is no support from the verse for the often mistranslations that this is referring to the virgin wives of the believing men. The verse is clear that it is dealing with the companions of the right hand and it is them that are being recreated as a new creation.056.036
?And we have made them "virgins" (Arabic Abkaran - Root BKR)?=BKR - A virgin - anything untouched, new, fresh.
056.037
Devoted (Arabic Uruban) Equal in age / well matched (Arabic Atraban)
056.038
For the companions on the right hand (Arabic Ashab-ul-ameen)complete articlehttp//quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
Thank you and salams
Salamun alaiki,
He, in an attempt to rebut the traditional fascinating gossips about "Hur" concept, unnecessarily overlooked and naively forgot simple and basic realities about Arabic language. So much so that in the "final balance" he erroneously stated that "hur" remains genderless. It looks ridiculous when stated by a "scholar" because he knows that in Arabic every noun is either masculine or feminine. "Hur" is feminine and is used in Adjectival Phrase where the gender of described and the description also matches.
First point is that I do not let myself, to the best of my effort, influenced by what earlier people said or believed about anything in Qur'aan. I strictly go by the rules of "reading"-the process of identifying and understanding the meanings of the characters and words in written text; which is understood by majority but naively never recalled while reading Qur'aan. The non natives also naively forget that the text of a foreign language becomes understandable only when one knows and adheres to the grammar-morphology and syntax of that language.
Text comprises only three things
1-Word
2. Phrase
3. Sentence.Meanings and connotation of an Arabic word is the composite whole of the meaning and perception infolded in the Root, coupled with meanings associated with its pattern and its relation to the semantic field it is used.
Word is . If you had merely compared it with the words signifying daybreaks in 341; 4055; which is you might have noticed that both are not the same word. Look at the vowel signs on the first Hamza.
is also used twice in Qur?aan. Next it is in 665 in comparison to literally meaning deflowered-not virgin women that is widows or divorcee.
It is second direct object of the preceding verb relating to plural feminine. I don?t know why some ?scholars? firstly condemning someone try to convince their unaware of Arabic audience by evidently nothing but gimmicks.
The preceding verbs, verb with first plural feminine object with second object one cannot perceive of anything else but physical virginity of human women.
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Peace Release,
Re your post 52
You and I have discussed this verse numerous times and you have always argued that you could see how polygamy could benefit society. I really don't understand the point you are making now. Do you believe, in the light of your reading of the whole Koran, that God advocates polygamy for humankind?
Peace Dawn,
No, Dawn. Don't just read post 52. Read all of my posts, please, and then connect them together. I have told you over and over again, that a woman (or whoever) should be compelled or coerced into a polygamous lifestyle, regardless of the reason.
It's only beneficial IF all parties are in agreement, otherwise we're going to run into problems, correct? For example, I would seek divorce, and call it quits. Polygamy is NOT for me. I'd rather be single, thank you very much. Regardless of shared assets and children, I'd call it quits. If my mental health suffers, then things will be far worse.
I don't share the same opinion as Mazhar. I don't believe polygamy is advocated or mandated, I believe it is a permission given under very specific circumstances. However, apart from that permission or suggestion, many other factors come into play. Fallen Angel and I discussed permission from one's initial wife, which I think is a "duh" given that marriage doesn't just work one way. Married couples need to arrive at this decision after mutual consultation and agreement. Marriage never works with a "my way or the highway" attitude, trust me. Plus, that kind of marriage goes against the overall spirit of the Quran, and I'd never want to be in a marriage that is abusive in any sort of way. I've been trying to convey these thoughts to you in the other threads. In this thread, I am merely voicing my personal concerns.
For the record, I'd like to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mazhar in regard to this particular topic. Nor, do I believe that Paradise has anything to do with sex or virgins or whatever, but all of that remains to be seen. Again, I'd rather focus on the present before us, then focus on making solid assumptions of a plane of existence that I may never see or experience.
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Peace Release,
If you believe polygamy is allowed under certain conditions, then you believe it is mandated. Under what circumstances, in the light of the rest of the Koran, do you believe it is allowed?
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Peace Dawn,
No, Dawn. Don't just read post 52. Read all of my posts, please, and then connect them together. I have told you over and over again, that a woman (or whoever) should be compelled or coerced into a polygamous lifestyle, regardless of the reason.
It's only beneficial IF all parties are in agreement, otherwise we're going to run into problems, correct? For example, I would seek divorce, and call it quits. Polygamy is NOT for me. I'd rather be single, thank you very much. Regardless of shared assets and children, I'd call it quits. If my mental health suffers, then things will be far worse.
I don't share the same opinion as Mazhar. I don't believe polygamy is advocated or mandated, I believe it is a permission given under very specific circumstances. However, apart from that permission or suggestion, many other factors come into play. Fallen Angel and I discussed permission from one's initial wife, which I think is a "duh" given that marriage doesn't just work one way. Married couples need to arrive at this decision after mutual consultation and agreement. Marriage never works with a "my way or the highway" attitude, trust me. Plus, that kind of marriage goes against the overall spirit of the Quran, and I'd never want to be in a marriage that is abusive in any sort of way. I've been trying to convey these thoughts to you in the other threads. In this thread, I am merely voicing my personal concerns.
For the record, I'd like to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mazhar in regard to this particular topic. Nor, do I believe that Paradise has anything to do with sex or virgins or whatever, but all of that remains to be seen. Again, I'd rather focus on the present before us, then focus on making solid assumptions of a plane of existence that I may never see or experience.
You are such a feminist......
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It is a fact that We have resurrected-revived them-the Wives, in the manner of anew creation.
Thereby, for reason We have made them virgins.They are coequal, delightful, devoted, eloquent of same species.
have you heard of something called virgin olive oil. Or what about EXTRA virgin olive oil ;D
question can someone be EXTRA virgin confused
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Peace Release,
If you believe polygamy is allowed under certain conditions, then you believe it is mandated. Under what circumstances, in the light of the rest of the Koran, do you believe it is allowed?
Peace Dawn,
Nope, that's your assumption. There is a difference between something being permissible under strict conditions, and an outright mandate. I hope that you can tell the difference between the two.
In regard to your second question, I've spent two threads trying to explain that to you. I think it's up to you to reflect on yourself, as to why you have not understood a single thing that I've been trying to say.
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Peace Release,
I am afraid I have understood everything you have said. Just because something is not mandatory, does not mean mandatory is not implied. If I tell my children that under certain circumstances they can/must stay awake until midnight, it means that it is permissible and allowed. In the case of polygamy, in order to protect the orphans you have said it is mandatory. Yes, you have said there is choice and the wife can choose to divorce her husband rather than be one of several wives. However, if we take this argument to its logical conclusion, if every woman refused her husband permission to take extra wives, then God's apparent law to help the poor would not work. This is why you must feel it is mandatory, otherwise the Koran, as you see it, must speaking rubbish. I know the Koran does not contradict itself.
It feels patronising, by the way, when you suggest to someone that they haven't understood. Maybe they just don't agree with you, which is the whole point of a discussion - to kick things about, not to be insulting.
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Peace Dawn,
You've been nothing but insulting to me. In an effort to stay on topic, I've decided not to mention it. I believe that I have exercised the utmosts limits of my patience in trying to convey my thoughts to you. I guess this is what I get in return.
Still, you have not understood me. Please do not put words in my mouth and attempt to slander me. Polygamy IS NOT mandatory. Marriage in itself it not mandatory, so how can polygamy be mandatory? It is permissible under certain cirumstances if 4.3 indeed has to do with polygamy. Permissible does not equate to mandatory. Do you know the difference?
Are you assuming that every wife out there is like you and I? Do you believe that every wife out there in the world will stress monogamy to her husband? No, it is not true. Your only frame of reference are the poor ladies in Saudi that you frequently speak to. There are many women out there in the real world (from different religions) that actually WANT to live a polygamous lifestyle. So, it's perfectly logical, depending on individual preferences and customs.
Sure, if her husband insists on taking another wife, then the initial wife is free to divorce. Of course, I also brought up the topic of marriage contracts, which you have very little to say in regard to. So, if 4.3 really has anything to do with polygamy, then it would work for those who are inclined to practice it. I'm not one of those people. Is it wrong for me to give my personal opinion and share my own feelings? Must I look at everything from only my point of view, and disregard the preferences of others? No, I have not done that in the past, and I will not do it now.
If you don't agree with me, then tell me you don't, and we can end the discussion there. However, hurling accusations at me, I won't put up with that Dawn. All I've tried to do is offer you my help, and in return, you've developed a personal vendetta against me. Every time I posted my perspective up, it was YOU who had a follow up question for me. I answered all of your questions. Now, I regret ever trying to help you.
You don't agree with me? Fine. I'm not going to lose sleep over that. Insulting? Look who's talking.
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Peace Wael,
What makes you say that? Is it because I advocate basic human rights for females?
You sound so much like a marrocan feminist I once met rotfl No offence my friend but please don't forget the human rights of us males
Maybe I should start an organisation called 'Mens human rights' as I feel women would soon control the world &
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Peace Released,
I must say I am absolutely shocked that you say I have been totally insulting to you. Please could you cite the incidences. If having a discussion with you and disagreeing with you is insulting to you, then perhaps it is best if we don't talk to each other. I really would like you to detail the insults though, so that I can observe my future behaviour, if , indeed, I have been insulting. I am always careful to be polite to everyone.
Dawn.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
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You sound so much like a marrocan feminist I once met rotfl No offence my friend but please don't forget the human rights of us males
Maybe I should start an organisation called 'Mens human rights' as I feel women would soon control the world &
Peace Wael,
I care for the rights of all. I am against male circumcision as well. However, in regard to marriage, I think both parties should have an equal say as to what happens or changes their overall dynamics. Equality for both sexes.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
Peace Dawn,
Well, Dawn, let's get this much clear You are not polite. So, please get that notion out of your mind, because it's a bold faced lie.
You have yet to discuss any of your other frames of references and yet, I've spent a really long time explaining things to you while giving you countless examples. All I've gotten in return from you is Saudi women and a random Jamaican man. It's rather pointless. I hope you decide to contribute more than that in the future.
I'm tired of being polite to people who cannot reciprocate the same to me. Do you understand this?