Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Peace Release,
If you believe polygamy is allowed under certain conditions, then you believe it is mandated. Under what circumstances, in the light of the rest of the Koran, do you believe it is allowed?
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Peace Dawn,
No, Dawn. Don't just read post 52. Read all of my posts, please, and then connect them together. I have told you over and over again, that a woman (or whoever) should be compelled or coerced into a polygamous lifestyle, regardless of the reason.
It's only beneficial IF all parties are in agreement, otherwise we're going to run into problems, correct? For example, I would seek divorce, and call it quits. Polygamy is NOT for me. I'd rather be single, thank you very much. Regardless of shared assets and children, I'd call it quits. If my mental health suffers, then things will be far worse.
I don't share the same opinion as Mazhar. I don't believe polygamy is advocated or mandated, I believe it is a permission given under very specific circumstances. However, apart from that permission or suggestion, many other factors come into play. Fallen Angel and I discussed permission from one's initial wife, which I think is a "duh" given that marriage doesn't just work one way. Married couples need to arrive at this decision after mutual consultation and agreement. Marriage never works with a "my way or the highway" attitude, trust me. Plus, that kind of marriage goes against the overall spirit of the Quran, and I'd never want to be in a marriage that is abusive in any sort of way. I've been trying to convey these thoughts to you in the other threads. In this thread, I am merely voicing my personal concerns.
For the record, I'd like to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mazhar in regard to this particular topic. Nor, do I believe that Paradise has anything to do with sex or virgins or whatever, but all of that remains to be seen. Again, I'd rather focus on the present before us, then focus on making solid assumptions of a plane of existence that I may never see or experience.
You are such a feminist......
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It is a fact that We have resurrected-revived them-the Wives, in the manner of anew creation.
Thereby, for reason We have made them virgins.They are coequal, delightful, devoted, eloquent of same species.
have you heard of something called virgin olive oil. Or what about EXTRA virgin olive oil ;D
question can someone be EXTRA virgin confused
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Peace Release,
If you believe polygamy is allowed under certain conditions, then you believe it is mandated. Under what circumstances, in the light of the rest of the Koran, do you believe it is allowed?
Peace Dawn,
Nope, that's your assumption. There is a difference between something being permissible under strict conditions, and an outright mandate. I hope that you can tell the difference between the two.
In regard to your second question, I've spent two threads trying to explain that to you. I think it's up to you to reflect on yourself, as to why you have not understood a single thing that I've been trying to say.
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Peace Release,
I am afraid I have understood everything you have said. Just because something is not mandatory, does not mean mandatory is not implied. If I tell my children that under certain circumstances they can/must stay awake until midnight, it means that it is permissible and allowed. In the case of polygamy, in order to protect the orphans you have said it is mandatory. Yes, you have said there is choice and the wife can choose to divorce her husband rather than be one of several wives. However, if we take this argument to its logical conclusion, if every woman refused her husband permission to take extra wives, then God's apparent law to help the poor would not work. This is why you must feel it is mandatory, otherwise the Koran, as you see it, must speaking rubbish. I know the Koran does not contradict itself.
It feels patronising, by the way, when you suggest to someone that they haven't understood. Maybe they just don't agree with you, which is the whole point of a discussion - to kick things about, not to be insulting.
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Peace Dawn,
You've been nothing but insulting to me. In an effort to stay on topic, I've decided not to mention it. I believe that I have exercised the utmosts limits of my patience in trying to convey my thoughts to you. I guess this is what I get in return.
Still, you have not understood me. Please do not put words in my mouth and attempt to slander me. Polygamy IS NOT mandatory. Marriage in itself it not mandatory, so how can polygamy be mandatory? It is permissible under certain cirumstances if 4.3 indeed has to do with polygamy. Permissible does not equate to mandatory. Do you know the difference?
Are you assuming that every wife out there is like you and I? Do you believe that every wife out there in the world will stress monogamy to her husband? No, it is not true. Your only frame of reference are the poor ladies in Saudi that you frequently speak to. There are many women out there in the real world (from different religions) that actually WANT to live a polygamous lifestyle. So, it's perfectly logical, depending on individual preferences and customs.
Sure, if her husband insists on taking another wife, then the initial wife is free to divorce. Of course, I also brought up the topic of marriage contracts, which you have very little to say in regard to. So, if 4.3 really has anything to do with polygamy, then it would work for those who are inclined to practice it. I'm not one of those people. Is it wrong for me to give my personal opinion and share my own feelings? Must I look at everything from only my point of view, and disregard the preferences of others? No, I have not done that in the past, and I will not do it now.
If you don't agree with me, then tell me you don't, and we can end the discussion there. However, hurling accusations at me, I won't put up with that Dawn. All I've tried to do is offer you my help, and in return, you've developed a personal vendetta against me. Every time I posted my perspective up, it was YOU who had a follow up question for me. I answered all of your questions. Now, I regret ever trying to help you.
You don't agree with me? Fine. I'm not going to lose sleep over that. Insulting? Look who's talking.
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Peace Wael,
What makes you say that? Is it because I advocate basic human rights for females?
You sound so much like a marrocan feminist I once met rotfl No offence my friend but please don't forget the human rights of us males
Maybe I should start an organisation called 'Mens human rights' as I feel women would soon control the world &
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Peace Released,
I must say I am absolutely shocked that you say I have been totally insulting to you. Please could you cite the incidences. If having a discussion with you and disagreeing with you is insulting to you, then perhaps it is best if we don't talk to each other. I really would like you to detail the insults though, so that I can observe my future behaviour, if , indeed, I have been insulting. I am always careful to be polite to everyone.
Dawn.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
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You sound so much like a marrocan feminist I once met rotfl No offence my friend but please don't forget the human rights of us males
Maybe I should start an organisation called 'Mens human rights' as I feel women would soon control the world &
Peace Wael,
I care for the rights of all. I am against male circumcision as well. However, in regard to marriage, I think both parties should have an equal say as to what happens or changes their overall dynamics. Equality for both sexes.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
Peace Dawn,
Well, Dawn, let's get this much clear You are not polite. So, please get that notion out of your mind, because it's a bold faced lie.
You have yet to discuss any of your other frames of references and yet, I've spent a really long time explaining things to you while giving you countless examples. All I've gotten in return from you is Saudi women and a random Jamaican man. It's rather pointless. I hope you decide to contribute more than that in the future.
I'm tired of being polite to people who cannot reciprocate the same to me. Do you understand this?
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Marriage which has inevitable sex aspect causes relationship of Man with womb of his wife. This helps and strenghens feelings of love and affection with her children also who were born of her earlier husband.
a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also.Qur'aan tells that once intercourse is done with a woman, her daughter from first husband becomes non-permissible. If this is not done with her and she is divorced, her daughter on becoming mature remains permissible for marriage. This might indicate the delecacy of sex aspect in marriage.
so a man marries a woman, doesn't have sex with her so he can then divorce her and marry her daughter and have sex with her, who I'm presuming is the much desired virgin? Why bother marrying the mother at all, or was that just to keep an eye on things until the child is old enough?
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a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also.
so a man marries a woman, doesn't have sex with her so he can then divorce her and marry her daughter and have sex with her, who I'm presuming is the much desired virgin? Why bother marrying the mother at all, or was that just to keep an eye on things until the child is old enough?
Salamin alaiki,
I don't know.
It is part of 423
and your step-daughters under your guardianship of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you.
and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=23
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Salamin alaiki,
I don't know.
It is part of 423
and your step-daughters under your guardianship of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you.
and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=23
ok good point, I replied in haste peace
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a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also
.Ofcourse. However, womb is the most important----beyond sex part
Honour, dignity, respect and exalted implications of plural Wombs is not only evident here but also from its Root which is the same for the all pervasive trait of Allah the Exalted==Ar Rahim.