Hadith and Sunnah are not part of Islam????!!!!!

luckstar97

To start, I will respond to Jafar

@luckstar97
you haven't answered my question, which is the fundamental yet most important.

According to you, what is islam?

Islam is epitomised by the Shahada. "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah, Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah". A single, honest, sincere recitation of this line in Arabic is all it takes to become a Muslim. It is the first pillar of Islam and the most important part. To honestly believe that.

The first part "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah" is to accept Tawhid and accept the oneness of Allah, without partners etc and is to follow the Qur'an the literal word of our Lord.
The second part "Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah" is to accept the orgins of the Qur'an and the authority/position of the Prophet (SAW).

In the Holy Quran, we are told that Muhammad(SAW) was given the Quran and the Wisdom to understand and explain it to us. We are ordered to obey him(SAW) and accept whatever he(SAW) gives us and abstain from whatever he(SAW) forbids us , because he only conveyed what was given to him by Allah(SWT) .

@es

You add all those extra frills because you think that Allah is guilty of omission. If you need those, then, by your own admission, God is not sufficient for you.

Muhammad (SAW) only gave to us what Allah told him. I can guarantee that neither you nor the next Qur'anist completely lives their lives as Muslims without some influence from the Prophet's (SAW) teachings. He (SAW) is the one that taught us the key to the understanding of Islam!!! The two are inseparable, you simply cannot be a Muslim without the acceptance of the Sunnah as you are denying a key part of Islam. I am not saying that Allah has missed parts from the Qur'an, I am saying Allah gave us the Qur'an and the Sunnah together.

@hawkninetynine

You can judge if something is correct or not by the results.

Has sunnism, shiaism helped or hurt it's constiuents?

Has the rise of hadith,sunnah based Islam given rise to non Quranic Islam?

If one would look at the sunni, shia world today would you say they are blessed or cursed?

The hadith, sunnah based believers falsely think that their dispute is with those who do not
believe as they do, but in reality their dispute is with God himself. I personally fear for my sunni
shia brothers and sisters the wrath of God because of the additions and subtractions to God's
laws.

This brings me back to my earlier point. It seems as if you are dismissing the Sunnah as you don't like the culture/behavior etc of the PEOPLE who follow the Sunnah and Hadith. To say that you should look at a people and see how they act, and then go on to say that therefore their beliefs are wrong is foolish. It is the other way around the people's actions are wrong.

@Borakk

However I maintain that hadiths are not a part of the religion of Islam.

Once again I think it is impossible to separate the two as (see above) the Prophet (SAW) gave us the understanding to the Qur'an. We are told that his command we must obey and it is impossible to live your life as a Muslim and not do some of the things that are told to us by him (SAW).

The problem starts when hadiths suggest new rules and laws in addition to what is said in quran eg. circumcision, banning pictures, musics, mandating hijabs and burkas etc. Quran is clear that no other source of religious laws are to be used besides the book itself. (6114)

These are very common out of context quotes. These are only in certain situations and are portrayed as mutilation, oppressive etc, when there are simple explanations for all of them. I will agree that there is confusion between Deen and Dunya and not everything the Prophet did or said was meant to be copied exactly i.e cleaning yourself with stones after going to the toilet, or having a dislike for snake meat. I view it as this the Qur'an is there to teach us the theological side of Islam, the Sunnah is there to a) help us understand what those things mean in everyday aspects and tot each how to live our lives as Muslims.

I would like to finish by asking those of you who dismiss the Sunnah two questions
What is your response to the numerous quotes from the Qur'an regarding obey the Prophet (SAW)? (some may be out of context but not all of them are)
If you accept the authenticity of Hadith then, the Sahabah who followed him (SAW) on things like reciting dua before going into the home, or greeting with as salaamu alaikum, why were they meant to follow the Prophet and we were not. It does not make sense that they obeyed him and now we don't?
And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that

I am not a Sunni. I am not a Shia. I am not a Sufi. I am not a Salafi. I am not a Qur'anist. I am not a Hanafi (unfortunately the list goes on)

I am a Muslim.

hawk99

@hawkninetynine
This brings me back to my earlier point. It seems as if you are dismissing the Sunnah as you don't like the culture/behavior etc of the PEOPLE who follow the Sunnah and Hadith. To say that you should look at a people and see how they act, and then go on to say that therefore their beliefs are wrong is foolish. It is the other way around the people's actions are wrong.

My reply was not personal but an observation having been sunni myself. The sunni,shia sects
have instituted additions and subtractions to the word of God, which are unlawful.

Peace

good_logic

Peace luckstar.

Here is a reproduction of part of the Preface of the latest edition of the Quran by Yousuf Ali, King Fahd edition. On page iii, we read the following

The Quran enjoys a number of characteristics unique to it ALONE, some of which are as follows

It is the actual Word of Allah; not created but revealed for the benefit of all mankind.
Most blessed is the One who revealed the Statute Book to His servant, so he can serve as a warner to the whole world.
It is COMPLETE AND COMPREHENSIVE. The Almighty says
All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book.** To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
In another place we read

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.

You are slightly behind, your scholars are admitting Qoran is fully detailed!

Peace.

mirjamnur

To start, I will respond to Jafar
Islam is epitomised by the Shahada. "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah, Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah". A single, honest, sincere recitation of this line in Arabic is all it takes to become a Muslim. It is the first pillar of Islam and the most important part. To honestly believe that.

The first part "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah" is to accept Tawhid and accept the oneness of Allah, without partners etc and is to follow the Qur'an the literal word of our Lord.
The second part "Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah" is to accept the orgins of the Qur'an and the authority/position of the Prophet (SAW).

In the Holy Quran, we are told that Muhammad(SAW) was given the Quran and the Wisdom to understand and explain it to us. We are ordered to obey him(SAW) and accept whatever he(SAW) gives us and abstain from whatever he(SAW) forbids us , because he only conveyed what was given to him by Allah(SWT) .

@es
Muhammad (SAW) only gave to us what Allah told him. I can guarantee that neither you nor the next Qur'anist completely lives their lives as Muslims without some influence from the Prophet's (SAW) teachings. He (SAW) is the one that taught us the key to the understanding of Islam!!! The two are inseparable, you simply cannot be a Muslim without the acceptance of the Sunnah as you are denying a key part of Islam. I am not saying that Allah has missed parts from the Qur'an, I am saying Allah gave us the Qur'an and the Sunnah together.

@hawkninetynine
This brings me back to my earlier point. It seems as if you are dismissing the Sunnah as you don't like the culture/behavior etc of the PEOPLE who follow the Sunnah and Hadith. To say that you should look at a people and see how they act, and then go on to say that therefore their beliefs are wrong is foolish. It is the other way around the people's actions are wrong.

@Borakk
Once again I think it is impossible to separate the two as (see above) the Prophet (SAW) gave us the understanding to the Qur'an. We are told that his command we must obey and it is impossible to live your life as a Muslim and not do some of the things that are told to us by him (SAW).

These are very common out of context quotes. These are only in certain situations and are portrayed as mutilation, oppressive etc, when there are simple explanations for all of them. I will agree that there is confusion between Deen and Dunya and not everything the Prophet did or said was meant to be copied exactly i.e cleaning yourself with stones after going to the toilet, or having a dislike for snake meat. I view it as this the Qur'an is there to teach us the theological side of Islam, the Sunnah is there to a) help us understand what those things mean in everyday aspects and tot each how to live our lives as Muslims.

I would like to finish by asking those of you who dismiss the Sunnah two questions
What is your response to the numerous quotes from the Qur'an regarding obey the Prophet (SAW)? (some may be out of context but not all of them are)
If you accept the authenticity of Hadith then, the Sahabah who followed him (SAW) on things like reciting dua before going into the home, or greeting with as salaamu alaikum, why were they meant to follow the Prophet and we were not. It does not make sense that they obeyed him and now we don't?
And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that

I am not a Sunni. I am not a Shia. I am not a Sufi. I am not a Salafi. I am not a Qur'anist. I am not a Hanafi (unfortunately the list goes on)

I am a Muslim.

Salam Muslim

i am a Muslima )

shahada-muslim- islam= look how Allah used those words in the complete Quran and then answer again
wisdom- was given to Prophet Muhammad and every Prophet before him- we don't must make any difference between the prophets (Baqara the end) There existe a similar statement from Jesus- that he is the way and every believer should following him-
prophets were leaders and sure the people should follow their example- but what comes to us as 'right example from the prophet' it is far away from the source- why then we follow not the first Ahadith which are written before ex. Buchari/Muslim / Dawud etc?
and why people believe in the Sira from Muhammad when religious teachers by themself states, that the sira vom Prophet Muhammad is not 100%??
3..there is a difference between religious orders and 'practice'= for me no problem, if you clean yourself with a stone, and think, it will bring you near to Allah ;D -or have a beard or even wearing Burka- it is tradition but it is not from the DEEN.
i have a problem when a Ahadith change the law written down in the Quran. Ex. stoning. My point is the fiqh- in the fiqh we found 1000 laws to translate or 'complete' the Quranic teachings- THIS IS THE WORST POINT. How a non quranic statement can replace a clear Order from God?? and decide over life or death???
sure there were pious people in the time of the prophet - if i see a beautiful dua for going in the home and it do not contradict the Quran- i have no problem with this. I also have no problem to recite the 'our father prayer' from the bible... But not all people are pious - also not in the time of the Prophet. And to accept without real knowledge (witness) that ALL the people who saw the prophet are RADIA ALLAHU ANHUM -this is false and sad.. '(
sorry for my bad english and peace peace

faruk

To start, I will respond to Jafar
Islam is epitomised by the Shahada. "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah, Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah". A single, honest, sincere recitation of this line in Arabic is all it takes to become a Muslim. It is the first pillar of Islam and the most important part. To honestly believe that.

The first part "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah" is to accept Tawhid and accept the oneness of Allah, without partners etc and is to follow the Qur'an the literal word of our Lord.
The second part "Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah" is to accept the orgins of the Qur'an and the authority/position of the Prophet (SAW).

I am not a Sunni. I am not a Shia. I am not a Sufi. I am not a Salafi. I am not a Qur'anist. I am not a Hanafi (unfortunately the list goes on)

I am a Muslim.

I think the problems of the muslims , who rely on shahada , is the shahada. No present day muslim personally witnessed Allah and Muhammad. Yet they proclaim that they witness "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah , Muhammad is the messenger of Allah". Means their shahada is false shahada. They are lying to themselves and they know it. Nothing based on false can be good. That is why there is so much corruption and misery in present day muslim countries.

GODsubmitter

Peace luckstar.

There is nothing to debate. You have your "hadith" and we have our " best hadith". You are welcome to all the hadith you want.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran, best hadith) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

End of conversation.

Peace.

PERFECT! bravo
sun

es

Muhammad (SAW) only gave to us what Allah told him. I can guarantee that neither you nor the next Qur'anist completely lives their lives as Muslims without some influence from the Prophet's (SAW) teachings. He (SAW) is the one that taught us the key to the understanding of Islam!!! The two are inseparable, you simply cannot be a Muslim without the acceptance of the Sunnah as you are denying a key part of Islam. I am not saying that Allah has missed parts from the Qur'an, I am saying Allah gave us the Qur'an and the Sunnah together.

I have briefly skimmed through some of the replies on this thread, and the response I intended to write, I think might be similar to what "mirjamnur" wrote.

I am not a "Quranist". I am a Muslim. A Muslim like Abraham, like Moses, like Jesus, et cetera, who did not read what you wrote as a qualifier to be a Muslim. What a weak basis for faith you use; a mere proclamation. Allah ta'ala says he knows what is in our hearts and minds whether we profess it or not. Allah is the witness of all that we are are in our entireties. Being a Muslim is declared in our actions, thoughts, intentions and good speech, and not just on a flimsy statement which does not really mean anything to most who utter it. Perhaps, if you took the initiative to deconstruct it, then you would understand better that which you are trying to claim.

The first part "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah" is to accept Tawhid and accept the oneness of Allah, without partners etc and is to follow the Qur'an the literal word of our Lord.

Going back to my original point, if you follow Allah, then why do you follow things which are not ordained in the Qur'an? Why do you wilfully follow things which Allah has not ordered in the Qur'an, but directly contravene what Allah ta'ala says in the Qur'an? You are adding an additional text to the Qur'an which does not even have a factual basis and you are purporting it to be on the same level as the Qur'an. If Allah ta'ala wanted you to follow that which Bukhari et al wrote, then do you not think God would have included it in his book rather than for some chaps to come along a few centuries later and decide that the Qur'an is not enough and requires these nonsensical compositions? Does this not constitute setting up partners with Allah? If you believe this, then you must accept God is fallible and is, therefore, not God.

The second part "Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah" is to accept the orgins of the Qur'an and the authority/position of the Prophet (SAW).

Muhammad is a Messenger amongst many more. He is not THE Messenger of God.

He was there to deliver a message not to inspire a cult who worship him.

Apart from the grave inaccuracies and sheer nonsense which the collections of Bukhari et al promote, what do you claim to be the "sunnah". This "sunnah" which you preach is not an exact science. You will get as many varied opinions as there are people, so which actual "sunnah" is it that you talk of?

Salaam.

Azz

Salaam,

I would like to finish by asking those of you who dismiss the Sunnah two questions

What is your response to the numerous quotes from the Qur'an regarding obey the Prophet (SAW)? (some may be out of context but not all of them are)
If you accept the authenticity of Hadith then, the Sahabah who followed him (SAW) on things like reciting dua before going into the home, or greeting with as salaamu alaikum, why were they meant to follow the Prophet and we were not. It does not make sense that they obeyed him and now we don't?
And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that

Just wanted to say that I'll be monitoring this thread. I'm completely open to persuasion.

Am I not obeying the prophet by following the Qu'ran though? Part of the Qu'ran's purpose is to supersede the misinterpretations of the previous scriptures that have been revealed, we agree atleast on that much, right? I genuinely feel that taking "obey the prophet" to mean obey the words revealed to him within the Qu'ran is a completely reasonable thing to do. Allah didn't reveal the Qu'ran to us directly. That and if it just said "obey Allah", naysayers belonging to other faiths could reply by saying "we already follow God".

Of course this ties into me believing that the Quran is fully detailed and completed, like 6114-115 says it is.

Which hadith are followed and which ones aren't varies everywhere. I'm talking less about the current day (though it's still true tofay) and more about Islam over the past 400 - 500 years or so, especially in places outside the Arabian continent. Stuff like that just isn't uniform. That being said, I actually have no problem with stuff like reciting dua before going into homes, greeting with as salaamu alaikum - or even using hadith as a reference. Some people will disagree with me here, but hear me out. Stuff like that has little to no religious importance, but it can be beneficial for social reasons. I'm actually quite fond of the most popular form of muslim prayer in theory because it brings the community together, the actual fact that I'm physically doing these movements isn't what's important at all. Anything outside the Qu'ran shouldn't be used as an authorative religious reference, again tying into me believing that the Qu'ran is complete and fully detailed.

The only people I have a problem with are the ones who push the hadith as an equal religious authority to the Qu'ran (very few admit doing this of course, but in practice, it happens sometimes) - that's tantamount to man worship.

And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that
Others have stated what I feel about the hadith better than how I could word it, I'll let you reply to them. Like I said, I'm monitoring this thread.

Also, you said that "you're not sunni, shia, hanafi, etc...but muslim". Honestly, I don't think most muslims like applying a secondary label to themselves, people just do it for the ease of discussion. Classification arguments never go anyway and always get in the way of more important matters.

Sorry for any grammar errors in my post, I'm pretty tired at the moment. Peace.

es

Salaam "Azz",

I quite enjoyed your post-did not note any grammatical errors either!

And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that
Others have stated what I feel about the hadith better than how I could word it, I'll let you reply to them. Like I said, I'm monitoring this thread.

I am interested to know your opinion on the authenticity of "hadith. Thank you in advance.

Salaam.

Azz

Salaam "Azz",

I quite enjoyed your post-did not note any grammatical errors either! )

I am interested to know your opinion on the authenticity of "hadith. Thank you in advance.

Salaam.

Salaam,

All I'm familiar with are parts of the two Sahih books, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, so everything I say applies to those two only, I suppose.

Despite the weakness of the human memory and the long time gap between the saying of these statements and the time they were actually recorded, I think a lot of it could very well be authentic. Maybe. I'll be honest, I'm not that knowledgable on "the science of Hadith".

I do know that Muhammad prohibited the recording of his affairs (outside what Allah revealed to him, which was collected in the Qu'ran of course) his entire life, others have already brought that point up. I refuse to believe that Allah would allow Muhammad to prevent his personal life to be recorded if it would be so beneficial to the muslim community - he was reprimanded by Allah for the far more trivial act of turning away from a blind man when he was busy doing something else (beginning of Surah Abasa/80). Saying that "Muhammad prevented records of his personal life only in order to have people focus on the Quran and that when people were ready, they started working on the hadith" seems to imply weakness in Allah, if that were true. Seriously, if we were supposed to roleplay the Prophet to such a large extent, there'd be a lot more about his personal life in the Qu'ran - doesn't anyone else find that odd? I don't think what I'm saying is all that illogical or anything.

Peace.

justamuslim

@luckstar97

I agree with you that we are obey the messenger. Can you provide me with just one hadith that are the sayings of the prophet Muhammed? One narration of prophet Muhammed.

I like to start from here. And welcome aboard!

mmkhan

In the Holy Quran, we are told that Muhammad(SAW) was given the Quran and the Wisdom to understand and explain it to us. We are ordered to obey him(SAW) and accept whatever he(SAW) gives us and abstain from whatever he(SAW) forbids us , because he only conveyed what was given to him by Allah(SWT) .

Salaam,

Red Can you please give us an aayat on your claim?

Unfortunately, all the aayaats quoted above are wrongly quoted. None of the aayaats says the word "Muhammad". If you want to understand what I am saying and how people twist and play with the word of Allah, please click here to see how many aayaats are misused to prove so called sunnah.

May Allah protect us and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

justamuslim

Salaam,

Red Can you please give us an aayat on your claim?

Unfortunately, all the aayaats quoted above are wrongly quoted. None of the aayaats says the word "Muhammad". If you want to understand what I am saying and how people twist and play with the word of Allah, please click here to see how many aayaats are misused to prove so called sunnah.

May Allah protect us and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Although Muhammed is not named in proper, it is understood that the person being referred to in the verses is prophet Muhammed.

hawk99

Although Muhammed is not named in proper, it is understood that the person being referred to in the verses is prophet Muhammed.

Agreed,

There are many inferences in the Quran that are to be understood in context.

The big crunch

"That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do." (Surah 21104).

Peace

mmkhan

Although Muhammed is not named in proper, it is understood that the person being referred to in the verses is prophet Muhammed.

Salaam justamuslim,

Can you proof it with alQuraan? Do you have any aayaats to support your understanding? Please share with us if you do, because I don't have any.

Yes, people understood so, but without any supporting aayat except conjectures.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

farida

Salaam justamuslim,

Can you proof it with alQuraan? Do you have any aayaats to support your understanding? Please share with us if you do, because I don't have any.

Yes, people understood so, but without any supporting aayat except conjectures.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Sorry may I ask that you please hold your questions for the next 9 days
peace

Bigmo

"Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." .

"Indeed, Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Qur'an), and purifying them, and instructing them (in) the Book (the Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah (the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophe), while before that they had been in manifest error." .

"Say (to them O Muhammad SAAW) If you love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you, and forgive you your sins; Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Merciful. Say Obey Allah, and the Messenger (SAAW), but if they turn away (then know), that Allah loves not the infidels." .

So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment. (An Nur 63)

"You have indeed a good example in the Messenger of Allah (SAAW) for whosoever hopes for Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much." .

"It is not for any believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger) have decreed a matter, to have the choice in their affair. And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger (SAAW) he has gone astray into manifest error." .

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept (them) fully with submission." .

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (Surah An-Nisa, 80)

"And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from." (surat al hashr 6)

You know, the Prophet himself warned us of this 'time" when people reject him

The Prophet said, ?There will come a time when a man sitting upon his couch is told a hadeeth and he replies, ?Between us and you is the Book of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. What we find in it to be lawful, we take as lawful and what we find in it to be forbidden, we take as forbidden.? Indeed, what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden.?

Allah subhanoo Wa' Tala could easily have sent us only the Qur'an as a book, but He didn't. He chose to send us a Messenger to be an actual living example to us and to teach us what the Book was saying.

To fully understand the Qur'an, we simply cannot separate between the Sunnah and the Qur'an

First you quoted many verses that you claim imply that there is a second revelation that came to Muhammad. This was the claim made by Al Shafi in his risala. However you must understand these are not explicit verses since you are assuming that any reference to obeying the prophet is based on an external source from the Quran. You must also try to interpret these verses with the many verses of the Quran that says the Quran is a guidance to mankind. There is no explicit reference in the Quran of any external source we are to accept except the previous scriptures.

Plus you also did not seperate between hadiths. What kind of hadiths are we talking about? Hadiths that contradict the Quran or hadiths that makes binding what the Quran did not? Not all hadiths are the same.

I guess before you talk about hadiths, you must first talk about what role does the Quran play.

What is the role of the Quran for you when we talk about Islam and the Muhammedan message?

What are the issues the Quran must address and what are the issues that is left for the Sunnah?

What exactly is the role of the Sunnah?

This is a good way to discuss the issue and not talk about Sunnah generally since Quranist differ from Muslims not from just accepting the Sunnah but also to what extent.

So when you say that we can not understand the Quran without the Sunnah than what aspects does the Sunnah explains in the Quran and what aspects does it not? What are the issues the Quran explains itself and what are the issues it does not explain?

A Sunni explantion goes like this

"The Sunnah comes in agreement with the Quran. It explains the meanings of what is unclear in the text, provides details for what is depicted in general terms, specifies what is general, and explains its injunctions and objectives. The Sunnah also comes with injunctions that are not provided by the Quran, but these are always in harmony with its principles, and they always advance the objectives that are outlined in the Quran"

Think about what is said here.

mmkhan

Sorry may I ask that you please hold your questions for the next 9 days
peace

Peace farida,

For next 9 days? hmm Is something gonna happen within these 9 days or after these 9 days? Oh! Sorry for questions again. BTW, my questions were addressed to justamuslim not you.

May Allah bless you,
mmKhan