:: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::

357

So, could we keep up the subject gentlemen , and do try to answer the question

Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!!

(do try to answer without old or new hadiths),

thank you

Try this...........if you have time.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600004.msg239942#msg239942

peace

GODsubmitter

Thank you so much brother @357!

It is utterly interesting and informative!

Thank you for the links and threads, don't know how would I be able to find them otherwise.

peace

Wakas

Just read the first post. The evidence presented is very poor in my view.

Mazhar

Just read the first post. The evidence presented is very poor in my view.

Salaam,

I was wondering who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but could not find any answer from AlQuraan till now. But Allah has shown me something just now, lets take a look at it.

6940
6940 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

8119
8119 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

Who is this Rasoolin Kareem ?

Some say, he is Jibraeel - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Jibraeel is a Rasoolin Kareem.

Some say, he is Muhammed - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Muhammed is a Rasoolin Kareem.

No other choice left. But no body ever think, whom Allah called a Rasoolin Kareem. Can you guess? Try!! OK! Please check 4417

4417
4417 And We had already tried before them the people of Pharaoh, and there came to them a noble messenger.

A Noble Messenger is with "M", that is not Muhammed, not Me either but that is Musa. This is only messenger called Rasoolin Kareem in AlQuraan.

One word suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread.

mmkhan

One word suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread.

How ? Will you please explain?

And what does means as per your understanding?

May Allah guide us to His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

How ? Will you please explain?

And what does means as per your understanding?

May Allah guide us to His path pr
mmKhan

?? ?? ??

Pronoun Hum refers to the people whom Qur'aan addressed and before them in time line were the nation of Pharoah.

Pronoun Hum refers to the people . Subject of verb, that is who came to them is . It is indefinite noun therefore needs to be made somewhat specific so adjectival makes it specified. This is an episode of long time back than the people referred by ? .

Borakk

Salam mmKhan,

This is my post in another topic regarding the issue. I'm posting it here

You do have a point from the Quranic perspective that Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad. This view has some support in historical records because some manuscripts from the very early period of Islam (7th century) shows that the Saracens/Muhageerens/Hagarenes/Ishmaelites (today's "muslims&quot had very good relations with the Jews of the time. The jews were even fighting alongside the Muslims. Apparently, the hostility between Jews and muslims started after AbdulMalik ibn Marwan and gained full traction during Abbasid period when hadiths such as those which prophecise killing jews were invented.

However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?

GODsubmitter

Salam mmKhan,

This is my post in another topic regarding the issue. I'm posting it here

You do have a point from the Quranic perspective that Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad. This view has some support in historical records because some manuscripts from the very early period of Islam (7th century) shows that the Saracens/Muhageerens/Hagarenes/Ishmaelites (today's "muslims&quot had very good relations with the Jews of the time. The jews were even fighting alongside the Muslims. Apparently, the hostility between Jews and muslims started after AbdulMalik ibn Marwan and gained full traction during Abbasid period when hadiths such as those which prophecise killing jews were invented.

However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?

Very interesting post...
But I think no Bible in its entirety was found before 7th C either... just some scattered scrolls in Hebrew I think...
And the oldest complete Hebrew Bible is from 10th century I think... (if you want I can gather the proofs and data again)
That's what made me think at one point that the Qur'an might be even earlier Scripture then the Bible... )
But then, historicity and linal perception of time is not such a serious category...

mmkhan

However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?

Salaam Borakk,

Please take a look at my reply#10 of this thread or click here. And regarding Eisa, Maryam, Zachariayya, I think they all are available at the same time of Musa as per 1928. And Yathrib, Makkah etc, are not referring to physical places as per my understanding.

Red I cannot say anything about manuscripts, they might have destroyed and that is not important as a part of this discussion.

If alQuraan was given to Musa in writing, it might have given in parts. For example, one task was given to Musa, like going to Firaun, then their communication, etc. is mentioned in writing and given to Musa and so on. This is how I think now.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

?? ?? ??

Pronoun Hum refers to the people whom Qur'aan addressed and before them in time line were the nation of Pharoah.

Pronoun Hum refers to the people . Subject of verb, that is who came to them is . It is indefinite noun therefore needs to be made somewhat specific so adjectival makes it specified. This is an episode of long time back than the people referred by ? .

Yes, so what is the problem here? How is this support what you said "One word suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread."?

If you read my opening post, it already clearly said that this is referring to qawme firaun.

I think, you misunderstood the concept of this thread. Please re-read it.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Yes, so what is the problem here? How is this support what you said "One word suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread."?

If you read my opening post, it already clearly said that this is referring to qawme firaun.

I think, you misunderstood the concept of this thread. Please re-read it.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

I am talking about the pronoun in and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing.

mmkhan

I am talking about the pronoun in and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing.

Red Who are those people whom alQuraan was addressing in ?

mmkhan

Salaam,

One of our forum members said this today about this thread.

The thread which you've referred above, clearly shows your fallacies and how you've failed to reply to the arguments which Mazhar has put forward against yours.

I confess that I was wrong about 255 and 261 in this thread while discussing with Mazhar. But now Allah has corrected me as usual, alhamduliAllah hail

I should also admit that I was asking for simple aayat to explain me that why I am wrong, but he want me to learn English grammar, then pronouns, then adverbs, then emphasis, rhetoric to see how I am wrong. Instead, he would have shown me in a simple manner what I was asking him. Anyways the simple way Allah guided me is with and .

is used for past in alQuraan.
is used for present and future in alQuraan.

Simple as that. Both 255 and 261 used hence referring to past.

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.

Update on the opening thread

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN to Musa - 172 and 7144
Zaboor was GIVEN to Dawood - 4163
Tawraat was REVEALED - 544
Injeel was GIVEN to Eisa - 546 and 5727
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2185

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Salaam,

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.

Update on the opening thread

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN to Musa - 172 and 7144
Zaboor was GIVEN to Dawood - 4163
Tawraat was REVEALED - 544
Injeel was GIVEN to Eisa - 546 and 5727
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2185

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

mmkhan

Salamun alaika,

Salaamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

1587
1587 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 33.

33
33 He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Tawraat and the Injeel.

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 459.

459
459 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.

Please note that the word atiy3oo is used before the word 'Allah' and before the word 'alRasool' but atiy3oo is missing before the words 'those in authority among you'. This means, we are not asked to atiy3oo those who are in authority among you, but they also have to obey Allah and obey alRasool.

Similarly you can clearly find difference between 332 and 592.

332
332 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

592
592 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away ? then know that upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

This is a clear difference, in 332 atiy3oo is missing before alRasool. Once we understand this pattern of alQuraan, you will understand that aataiyna is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem in 1587. If not, then there must be some other aayaat which will clarify that alQuraan was given and I don't find any. Please share if you find.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

laamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

1587
1587 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 33.

Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.

mmkhan

Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.

Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

1587
1587 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

1587
1587 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences

We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum.

mmkhan

Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences

We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum.

Salaamun a3laika,

I am not surprised to see such a response from you, yes.

But please let me clarify the tricks you used to get favor from others or whatever.

No one can? You should think about what you can, don't take burden on you of what others can.
I replied in that way just to make clear what I wanted to say which you are fully aware of. And btw, it was not my sentence but it is a translation of an aayat of alQuraan which was translated by Sahih International, not me. Click on the aayat number in my previous post to confirm.
Did I not given much evidences from alQuraan to support my point and you bring NONE?
You already knew it that whether that sentence is incomplete or not, and again don't think about readers, but say, it is difficult for you to read and understand.
Came up again with your big shield of learning grammar, thanks anyway for your advice, and please keep this tool to use it on others, I learned a lot about it, hence it is no more effecting me
No no no... I didn't mind it at all for sure... but would like to thank you for teaching me how to talk and trick people, and show ourselves clean and say everything that would like to.

Thank you Master Ji, for teaching me great lessons, but I suggest, please bring some new ones, old ones are already known

Note Please make it sure that it is my current understanding and it may change as Allah guides me.

May Allah show liars the place they deserve and guide US on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

1587 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences

We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

Salamun alaika,

I stand by this post. Let one English native on this forum come forward and deny it. Or even put your sentence in some auto parser and see what it tells you back. It is not a random process when words are arranged in sentences; the rules of grammar must be adhered to.
Let some sane person put this claim that he has the miraculous power of comprehending and writing in non-native language without knowing abc of grammar of that language. Obviously sane persons are not fools. So I don't expect anybody coming forward on this forum to make this claim.