Adultery punishement ?

unknownuser

Peace Farouk,

"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. " (Khalifa translation)

Is the punishement only matching the culture of people living then (year 600 or so), or are we supposed to do it now too, in 2004, at a time where it seems like people are being more "forgiving" for this kind of sin.

Perhaps in that era! Has anyone actually witnessed 100 lashes in this generation in any country, perhaps other than Saudi Arabia? Has anyone thought of other modern techniques or punishment by the governments for such lewdness taking place in any given country, other than lashes of the uncivilised era? Besides, it would take up quite a stamina to conduct 100 lashes before the lasher gets exhausted or drown in his sweating. lol Not to mention the emotional and physical impact on the adulterers by mere shock, pain and/or nervous breakdown, hence paralyzing, death, severe trauma and/or permanent bodily injuries, that may deem them unfit for survival and repentance. shock

Sword

Salam Danish.
I joined Free Minds today. After reading many threads, I figured out that free minds may mean a lot of differences also. lol

I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.

Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.

Also there is the theft punishment. It is clearly stated. A hand should be cut(I aware of the ongoing controversy about the pluralism of AYDIHUN)

shock I am Jordanian but live in a country with a lot of theifs(Turkey). I faced two personally in my house twisted

warda

Salam Zenje
are you serious with that?

Firstly, I don't see anything wrong with the punishment (100 lashes), as I believe it fits the crime.

Can you please explain why it is such a "crime"? In my view a crime is murder, stealing, selling the sister, daughter to a man she doesn`t know, dealing with drugs or weapons etc.

What makes it a crime that one has to suffer such a hard pain with these and more effects
emotional and physical impact on the adulterers by mere shock, pain and/or nervous breakdown, hence paralyzing, death, severe trauma and/or permanent bodily injuries, that may deem them unfit for survival and repentance. Shocked

salam
warda

zenje

Salaam Warda )

are you serious with that?
serious as a heart attack!

In my view a crime is murder, stealing, selling the sister, daughter....
That's correct... in YOUR view, what about what GOD says? Does that matter at all? ? I'm not saying those things you mentioned are not crimes... I do hope that you see my point though.

For a moment let's forget what we know, let's forget what politically correct, let's forget worldly niceties or cruelties for that matter... and concentrate on the laws and instructions from God.

And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

warda

Salam Zenje, )

As far as I know it doesnt say "crime" in the Koran... So then it is your view that its a crime.
And I really would like to know from you what makes adultery a crime? What makes it so evil that one has to suffer....(ad I mentioned above)?

Salam

Idris

peace be upon all,

is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its just a deterent for lewd behavior, this also brings the question of 4 witnesses, how can one have four witnesses in an enclosed room? clearly this shows that its a punishment for lewd acts in public, and the fact that the lashes have to be done in public clearly shows the punishment is for humiliation and with this we can clearly see the logic of the punishment

Salam Danish.
I joined Free Minds today. After reading many threads, I figured out that free minds may mean a lot of differences also.

I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.

Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.

Also there is the theft punishment. It is clearly stated. A hand should be cut(I aware of the ongoing controversy about the pluralism of AYDIHUN)

I am Jordanian but live in a country with a lot of theifs(Turkey). I faced two personally in my house

the punishment for theft is clearly spelled out in 1275, aydihun can also be translated as resources and cut into their resources clearly fits in with the punishment for theft in 1275

Can you please explain why it is such a "crime"? In my view a crime is murder, stealing, selling the sister, daughter to a man she doesn`t know, dealing with drugs or weapons etc.

What makes it a crime that one has to suffer such a hard pain with these and more effects

read my replies

warda

Salam Idris,

is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its....

I got this point even before you told me so. Nevertheless I`m curious to know
why adultery is in the eyes of soo many people a CRIME?

That`s it
Salam
warda

Idris

peace be upon you,

Salam Idris,

is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its....

I got this point even before you told me so. Nevertheless I`m curious to know
why adultery is in the eyes of soo many people a CRIME?

That`s it
Salam
warda

I like this interpretation by Allama Parwez, btw zina is not just adultery but any lewd act, plus its described as a sin/crime in the reading (quran)

242 (One difference between man and animal is that the latter has no sense of chastity. The protection of chastity is essential for the development and growth of both, the individual and the nation. Islamic society lays emphasis on protection of chastity and in this regard the first commandment is ?Flog each of the Zani man and woman with one hundred lashes. Let no compassion for them deter you from carrying out the Law of Allah; if you truly believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement.? (If you have faith in the fact that these are the Divine Laws and that you will surely have to face the consequences, either in this world or in the hereafter) Openly enforce this punishment in the presence of a group of Momineen. (The punishment for those whom your oath posesses is half of that ~ 425. The punishment for other immoral acts has been given in verse 415.)

243 Zina or illicit sexual intercourse is not an ordinary offence. If you analyze it carefully, the only woman who would agree to such sexual contact is one who does not consider her chastity to be a permanent value; or who becomes subservient to her passions (instead of the Divine Laws) and surrenders to every urge (4523). Similarly, the only man who agrees to having such sexual intercourse is one who surrenders to his passions and does not differentiate between human and animal life. (Thus Zina can only take place when both the man and woman are driven by similar desires ~ 2426. If even one of them wants to remain chaste, there is no possibility of such an act ever taking place. That is why the punishment for Zina is equal for both, the man and the woman. Such a relationship is forbidden for Momineen.)

check this out, it gives some good views of the laws in the reading (quran)
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/QL/QL.htm

unknownuser

Salaam Sword,

Salam Danish.
I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.

If you cannot simply interpret, then how does it become cystal clear?

Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.

I've never supported stoning nor lashing.

Also there is the theft punishment. It is clearly stated. A hand should be cut(I aware of the ongoing controversy about the pluralism of AYDIHUN)

It is NOT clearly stated but wrongly understood. Stoning you disagree with but cutting off hands and lashing you agree. No wonder you've the 'sword' as your icon.

People musn't go about cutting hands of thiefs. If one hand is cut off, one may steal with the other, hence chopping his/her other hand. If one steals with his/her mouth grabbing and gripping things by teeth, the teeth or mouth or perhaps the heads may be chopped off. What about adultry? Why not chop off penises and vaginas off? People who bad-mouth or lie, well, you may chop off thier tongues with your sword for all you know. What nonsence and barbaric notions you bring about to suit your needs. There are civilized and just ways to deal with each crime. Brother Idris gave one good example of "cutting off of resources".

shock I am Jordanian but live in a country with a lot of theifs(Turkey). I faced two personally in my house twisted

What did you do with those thieves? Chop off their hands???

zenje

As far as I know it doesnt say "crime" in the Koran... So then it is your view that its a crime.

Oh I see... I think I misunderstood you. oops

Here's the verses concerened...

Chapter 24

A chapter which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations that you may remember.
The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God?s system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Now I'm not sure about you, but this verse is clear to me. This is GOD's law. If you're questioning that, then I cannot answer your question. I hope you're understanding what I'm trying to say. ) If not, perhaps this verse might further help;

And do not come near adultery, for it is a sin and an evil path.

Now, as for the word crime, I still think it applies...

crime

An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.

If God has given a law for a punishment, then a 'crime' as described above has been committed/omitted.

Now warda, try and read the contents in this thread, and see if there's still a problem.

Peace be with you, sister.

Idris

peace be upon you Danish,

I've never supported stoning nor lashing.

then whats your view on the punishment dished out by 242-4 and 425?

TheNabi

Salaam Warda,

I believe adultery is a crime for many reasons. There is a breach of trust , contracts, and commitment. Also from this there is a probability that there could be a passing of unwanted germs from the adulter to his wife from the adulteress, or perhaps it's another man he doing it with instead and the same goes for the woman. It crushes the family unit, the family can fall apart, mistrust is a big issue now, children will live in a broken home, etc. There are not only negative reprocutions on the people involved, but it also affects society negatively. It is a huge issue in my eyes and that it why I believe it is so serious.

Joe

drfazl

If We 're Muslims, We 've
No Business In This!

Hi,
I have a question about the punishment for people who aren't married,
mentioned in verse
242
"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. "

if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day.
a group of believers witness their penalty. "

If you think yourself to be PURE, TRUE MUSLIM, and you can make sure there is a group of PURE AND TRUE MUSLIMS to witness the punishment, then go ahead.

004049 Hast thou not seen those who praise themselves for purity? Nay, Allah purifieth whom He will,-

035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the earth a single living creature but He gives them respite for a stated Term when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.

024.021 O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure but Allah doth purify whom He pleases and Allah is One Who hears and knows

So, if we are muslims we Fear Allah and seek forgiveness from HIM and will never be again indulging in such acts such as receiving lewdness on our tongues and spreading the lewdness with our mouths and meting out punishments on shaitan's command.

Here is Allah's warning against those who carried such news to the public

024.015 When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.
024.016 And why did ye not say when ye heard it ? - "It is not right of us to speak of this Glory to Allah! this is a most serious slander!"

unknownuser

Peace Idris,

I've never supported stoning nor lashing.

then whats your view on the punishment dished out by 242-4 and 425?

I gave my views earlier (last 2 posts). No doubt the adultry is a serious crime as Joe put it, but again, IN THIS GENERATION, there are equally just puishments such as imprisonment for a specific time, confinement, voluntary civil labor, probations, restrictions, financial subjugations, etc., etc.

The Quran also points out that an adulterer must join in (marry) an adulteress and vice versa.....what? after lashing and beating them up a 100 times. How many incidents as such are witnessed in real life these days? Can you seriously implement such humiliation and torture on such individuals and later marry them off to a joyous start, IN THIS ADVANCED AND CIIVILIZED ERA? I seriously doubt it and it may very well be challenged an insane/barbaric act.

Experiment take a lash and whip 100 times onto a punching bag or perhaps some other soft but ductile or malleable material (akin to skin). Notice the affects, on the whipper, the whip and the subject/material. Now imagine the affects and sufferings on humans. They may not even survive, talk about a dead marriage. Besides, if they die getting whipped, wouldn't the whipper be called a murderer and the punishment perhaps is more severe?

On the contrary, could the words/verse be misunderstood altogether or perhaps the English words "lash", "whip" used somewhat harshly? GOD knows.

warda

Salam Aleikum all of you,

TheNabi wrote

I believe adultery is a crime for many reasons. There is a breach of trust , contracts, and commitment. Also from this there is a probability that there could be a passing of unwanted germs from the adulter to his wife from the adulteress, or perhaps it's another man he doing it with instead and the same goes for the woman. It crushes the family unit, the family can fall apart, mistrust is a big issue now, children will live in a broken home, etc. There are not only negative reprocutions on the people involved, but it also affects society negatively. It is a huge issue in my eyes and that it why I believe it is so serious.

Thanks, Bro that helped me.
I agree with you that it couses real trouble to a couple and a family! And I agree totally that it is not easy to take. But nevertheless I think that this punishment is just too harsh. I think Danish is very right when he writes

Can you seriously implement such humiliation and torture on such individuals and later marry them off to a joyous start, IN THIS ADVANCED AND CIIVILIZED ERA? I seriously doubt it and it may very well be challenged an insane/barbaric act.

Experiment take a lash and whip 100 times onto a punching bag or perhaps some other soft but ductile or malleable material (akin to skin). Notice the affects, on the whipper, the whip and the subject/material. Now imagine the affects and sufferings on humans. They may not even survive, talk about a dead marriage. Besides, if they die getting whipped, wouldn't the whipper be called a murderer and the punishment perhaps is more severe?

The relevance is incorrect. Think of a young girl, getting married against her will to an old guy amd she is not happy at all with him, even she feels disgusted... Shes longing for some tenderness (Hanan) , to love and to be loved thats what she dreams of. Let`s take this case - does she deserve one hundred lashes on her back? And her father or brother or whoever rules about her life and marriage does not deserve anything?
I think that?s absolutely wrong. And this is not a fairy tale - we all know what happens to thousands of unhappy girls and woman throughout the world.

salam
warda

TheNabi

Salaam Warda,

Getting married against one's will is not valid according to alquran. wink Let such a woman find herself a suitable mate.

Joe

Farouk

Thank you all for your answers. They clarified things for me, and I am already having some rich conversations with my friends about it.

As for adultery being a big sin, I thought about the consequences in people's life. I can tell i know people of both sex whose life have been devastated because their mate cheated on them. And when I say devastated, I am saying they not only lost any sense of hope and happiness for years, but also, in some case lost their job, and started drinking (even have a case of a girl who became anorexic when she learned about her fiance betrayal). So, I guess I can tell it can potentially be very devastating.

Sword

Danish Wrote

Salaam Sword,
Sword wrote
Salam Danish.
I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.

If you cannot simply interpret, then how does it become cystal clear?

I meant it does not need interpretation. Not that I cannot interpret it. It can be understood by any Arabic speaking humanbeing.

Quote
Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.

I've never supported stoning nor lashing.

It is not a matter of supporting or not. I believe stoning is wrong because quran says nothing about it.

And by the way I did not cut their hands. They were caught by police. Detained for 3 months and released. This is how it works in Turkey.

People musn't go about cutting hands of thiefs. If one hand is cut off, one may steal with the other, hence chopping his/her other hand. If one steals with his/her mouth grabbing and gripping things by teeth, the teeth or mouth or perhaps the heads may be chopped off. What about adultry? Why not chop off penises and vaginas off? People who bad-mouth or lie, well, you may chop off thier tongues with your sword for all you know. What nonsence and barbaric notions you bring about to suit your needs. There are civilized and just ways to deal with each crime. Brother Idris gave one good example of "cutting off of resources".

O please tell me
*how can somebody steal with one hand?
Moreover who said that punishemtn is meant to stop a thief from doing it again.?
And who said that his hand is cut because a thief steals with his hands?
I dont know why call it barbaric and uncivilized! Is cutting a thiefs hand a sign of brutality or savagery? Not all people have the same feeling towards this especially if it was an order from God.
Why is it uncivilized?
Well what about electric chair?is that civilized? Or the slow death with drug injection?

sabo

Salam Sword,

How do you understand 1231? Do u think also that the women cut off their hands?

best regards,
sabo

Sword

Salam Sabo,

Maybe you mean that "KATA3a" does not mean cutting totally with bones?
It was used 38 times in Quran with many different meanings.
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob4cde.html?root=%D9%82%D8%B7%D8%B9%0D
I agree, I do not imagine these women cutting their hands with the bones(it is almost impssible for somebody to cut his own bone). They may have caused only some injury. But if so, then why did not god use another word like "Jara7a" instead of "Kata3a"?
I dont really know. Well, I need help on this.

I want however to say that by all what I posted in this thread, I meant that if a punishment is writeen in quran, then we should do it. But I do not however know how to do it. You now made me think there could be another meaning of "kata3a" other than excision.

I want to look more into this. You can also help me as you are an older member fo freeminds.

Peace