Adultery punishement ?
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peace be upon all,
is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its just a deterent for lewd behavior, this also brings the question of 4 witnesses, how can one have four witnesses in an enclosed room? clearly this shows that its a punishment for lewd acts in public, and the fact that the lashes have to be done in public clearly shows the punishment is for humiliation and with this we can clearly see the logic of the punishment
Salam Danish.
I joined Free Minds today. After reading many threads, I figured out that free minds may mean a lot of differences also.I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.
Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.
Also there is the theft punishment. It is clearly stated. A hand should be cut(I aware of the ongoing controversy about the pluralism of AYDIHUN)
I am Jordanian but live in a country with a lot of theifs(Turkey). I faced two personally in my house
the punishment for theft is clearly spelled out in 1275, aydihun can also be translated as resources and cut into their resources clearly fits in with the punishment for theft in 1275
Can you please explain why it is such a "crime"? In my view a crime is murder, stealing, selling the sister, daughter to a man she doesn`t know, dealing with drugs or weapons etc.
What makes it a crime that one has to suffer such a hard pain with these and more effects
read my replies
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Salam Idris,
is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its....
I got this point even before you told me so. Nevertheless I`m curious to know
why adultery is in the eyes of soo many people a CRIME?That`s it
Salam
warda -
peace be upon you,
Salam Idris,
is anybody even reading what I wrote? the 100 lashes are not to penetrate the skin, this is not an interpretation but anybody that knows the sufficient Arabic can see this and that its....
I got this point even before you told me so. Nevertheless I`m curious to know
why adultery is in the eyes of soo many people a CRIME?That`s it
Salam
wardaI like this interpretation by Allama Parwez, btw zina is not just adultery but any lewd act, plus its described as a sin/crime in the reading (quran)
242 (One difference between man and animal is that the latter has no sense of chastity. The protection of chastity is essential for the development and growth of both, the individual and the nation. Islamic society lays emphasis on protection of chastity and in this regard the first commandment is ?Flog each of the Zani man and woman with one hundred lashes. Let no compassion for them deter you from carrying out the Law of Allah; if you truly believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement.? (If you have faith in the fact that these are the Divine Laws and that you will surely have to face the consequences, either in this world or in the hereafter) Openly enforce this punishment in the presence of a group of Momineen. (The punishment for those whom your oath posesses is half of that ~ 425. The punishment for other immoral acts has been given in verse 415.)
243 Zina or illicit sexual intercourse is not an ordinary offence. If you analyze it carefully, the only woman who would agree to such sexual contact is one who does not consider her chastity to be a permanent value; or who becomes subservient to her passions (instead of the Divine Laws) and surrenders to every urge (4523). Similarly, the only man who agrees to having such sexual intercourse is one who surrenders to his passions and does not differentiate between human and animal life. (Thus Zina can only take place when both the man and woman are driven by similar desires ~ 2426. If even one of them wants to remain chaste, there is no possibility of such an act ever taking place. That is why the punishment for Zina is equal for both, the man and the woman. Such a relationship is forbidden for Momineen.)
check this out, it gives some good views of the laws in the reading (quran)
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/QL/QL.htm -
Salaam Sword,
Salam Danish.
I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.If you cannot simply interpret, then how does it become cystal clear?
Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.
I've never supported stoning nor lashing.
Also there is the theft punishment. It is clearly stated. A hand should be cut(I aware of the ongoing controversy about the pluralism of AYDIHUN)
It is NOT clearly stated but wrongly understood. Stoning you disagree with but cutting off hands and lashing you agree. No wonder you've the 'sword' as your icon.
People musn't go about cutting hands of thiefs. If one hand is cut off, one may steal with the other, hence chopping his/her other hand. If one steals with his/her mouth grabbing and gripping things by teeth, the teeth or mouth or perhaps the heads may be chopped off. What about adultry? Why not chop off penises and vaginas off? People who bad-mouth or lie, well, you may chop off thier tongues with your sword for all you know. What nonsence and barbaric notions you bring about to suit your needs. There are civilized and just ways to deal with each crime. Brother Idris gave one good example of "cutting off of resources".
shock I am Jordanian but live in a country with a lot of theifs(Turkey). I faced two personally in my house twisted
What did you do with those thieves? Chop off their hands???
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As far as I know it doesn
t say "crime" in the Koran... So then it is your view that its a crime.Oh I see... I think I misunderstood you. oops
Here's the verses concerened...
Chapter 24
- A chapter which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations that you may remember.
- The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God?s system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Now I'm not sure about you, but this verse is clear to me. This is GOD's law. If you're questioning that, then I cannot answer your question. I hope you're understanding what I'm trying to say. ) If not, perhaps this verse might further help;
- And do not come near adultery, for it is a sin and an evil path.
Now, as for the word crime, I still think it applies...
crime
- An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
If God has given a law for a punishment, then a 'crime' as described above has been committed/omitted.
Now warda, try and read the contents in this thread, and see if there's still a problem.
Peace be with you, sister.
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Salaam Warda,
I believe adultery is a crime for many reasons. There is a breach of trust , contracts, and commitment. Also from this there is a probability that there could be a passing of unwanted germs from the adulter to his wife from the adulteress, or perhaps it's another man he doing it with instead and the same goes for the woman. It crushes the family unit, the family can fall apart, mistrust is a big issue now, children will live in a broken home, etc. There are not only negative reprocutions on the people involved, but it also affects society negatively. It is a huge issue in my eyes and that it why I believe it is so serious.
Joe
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If We 're Muslims, We 've
No Business In This!Hi,
I have a question about the punishment for people who aren't married,
mentioned in verse
242
"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. "if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day.
a group of believers witness their penalty. "If you think yourself to be PURE, TRUE MUSLIM, and you can make sure there is a group of PURE AND TRUE MUSLIMS to witness the punishment, then go ahead.
004049 Hast thou not seen those who praise themselves for purity? Nay, Allah purifieth whom He will,-
035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the earth a single living creature but He gives them respite for a stated Term when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.
024.021 O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure but Allah doth purify whom He pleases and Allah is One Who hears and knows
So, if we are muslims we Fear Allah and seek forgiveness from HIM and will never be again indulging in such acts such as receiving lewdness on our tongues and spreading the lewdness with our mouths and meting out punishments on shaitan's command.
Here is Allah's warning against those who carried such news to the public
024.015 When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.
024.016 And why did ye not say when ye heard it ? - "It is not right of us to speak of this Glory to Allah! this is a most serious slander!" -
Peace Idris,
I've never supported stoning nor lashing.
then whats your view on the punishment dished out by 242-4 and 425?
I gave my views earlier (last 2 posts). No doubt the adultry is a serious crime as Joe put it, but again, IN THIS GENERATION, there are equally just puishments such as imprisonment for a specific time, confinement, voluntary civil labor, probations, restrictions, financial subjugations, etc., etc.
The Quran also points out that an adulterer must join in (marry) an adulteress and vice versa.....what? after lashing and beating them up a 100 times. How many incidents as such are witnessed in real life these days? Can you seriously implement such humiliation and torture on such individuals and later marry them off to a joyous start, IN THIS ADVANCED AND CIIVILIZED ERA? I seriously doubt it and it may very well be challenged an insane/barbaric act.
Experiment take a lash and whip 100 times onto a punching bag or perhaps some other soft but ductile or malleable material (akin to skin). Notice the affects, on the whipper, the whip and the subject/material. Now imagine the affects and sufferings on humans. They may not even survive, talk about a dead marriage. Besides, if they die getting whipped, wouldn't the whipper be called a murderer and the punishment perhaps is more severe?
On the contrary, could the words/verse be misunderstood altogether or perhaps the English words "lash", "whip" used somewhat harshly? GOD knows.
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Salam Aleikum all of you,
TheNabi wrote
I believe adultery is a crime for many reasons. There is a breach of trust , contracts, and commitment. Also from this there is a probability that there could be a passing of unwanted germs from the adulter to his wife from the adulteress, or perhaps it's another man he doing it with instead and the same goes for the woman. It crushes the family unit, the family can fall apart, mistrust is a big issue now, children will live in a broken home, etc. There are not only negative reprocutions on the people involved, but it also affects society negatively. It is a huge issue in my eyes and that it why I believe it is so serious.
Thanks, Bro that helped me.
I agree with you that it couses real trouble to a couple and a family! And I agree totally that it is not easy to take. But nevertheless I think that this punishment is just too harsh. I think Danish is very right when he writesCan you seriously implement such humiliation and torture on such individuals and later marry them off to a joyous start, IN THIS ADVANCED AND CIIVILIZED ERA? I seriously doubt it and it may very well be challenged an insane/barbaric act.
Experiment take a lash and whip 100 times onto a punching bag or perhaps some other soft but ductile or malleable material (akin to skin). Notice the affects, on the whipper, the whip and the subject/material. Now imagine the affects and sufferings on humans. They may not even survive, talk about a dead marriage. Besides, if they die getting whipped, wouldn't the whipper be called a murderer and the punishment perhaps is more severe?
The relevance is incorrect. Think of a young girl, getting married against her will to an old guy amd she is not happy at all with him, even she feels disgusted... She
s longing for some tenderness (Hanan) , to love and to be loved thats what she dreams of. Let`s take this case - does she deserve one hundred lashes on her back? And her father or brother or whoever rules about her life and marriage does not deserve anything?
I think that?s absolutely wrong. And this is not a fairy tale - we all know what happens to thousands of unhappy girls and woman throughout the world.salam
warda -
Thank you all for your answers. They clarified things for me, and I am already having some rich conversations with my friends about it.
As for adultery being a big sin, I thought about the consequences in people's life. I can tell i know people of both sex whose life have been devastated because their mate cheated on them. And when I say devastated, I am saying they not only lost any sense of hope and happiness for years, but also, in some case lost their job, and started drinking (even have a case of a girl who became anorexic when she learned about her fiance betrayal). So, I guess I can tell it can potentially be very devastating.
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Danish Wrote
Salaam Sword,
Sword wrote
Salam Danish.
I think if a punishment is explicitely stated in Quran then we should take it as true. I simply cannot interpret that verse as it does not need to be interpreted. It makes it crystal clear that "100 lashes" is the punishment.If you cannot simply interpret, then how does it become cystal clear?
I meant it does not need interpretation. Not that I cannot interpret it. It can be understood by any Arabic speaking humanbeing.
Quote
Stoning is not an option. We agree on this.I've never supported stoning nor lashing.
It is not a matter of supporting or not. I believe stoning is wrong because quran says nothing about it.
And by the way I did not cut their hands. They were caught by police. Detained for 3 months and released. This is how it works in Turkey.
People musn't go about cutting hands of thiefs. If one hand is cut off, one may steal with the other, hence chopping his/her other hand. If one steals with his/her mouth grabbing and gripping things by teeth, the teeth or mouth or perhaps the heads may be chopped off. What about adultry? Why not chop off penises and vaginas off? People who bad-mouth or lie, well, you may chop off thier tongues with your sword for all you know. What nonsence and barbaric notions you bring about to suit your needs. There are civilized and just ways to deal with each crime. Brother Idris gave one good example of "cutting off of resources".
O please tell me
*how can somebody steal with one hand?
Moreover who said that punishemtn is meant to stop a thief from doing it again.?
And who said that his hand is cut because a thief steals with his hands?
I dont know why call it barbaric and uncivilized! Is cutting a thiefs hand a sign of brutality or savagery? Not all people have the same feeling towards this especially if it was an order from God.
Why is it uncivilized?
Well what about electric chair?is that civilized? Or the slow death with drug injection? -
Salam Sabo,
Maybe you mean that "KATA3a" does not mean cutting totally with bones?
It was used 38 times in Quran with many different meanings.
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob4cde.html?root=%D9%82%D8%B7%D8%B9%0D
I agree, I do not imagine these women cutting their hands with the bones(it is almost impssible for somebody to cut his own bone). They may have caused only some injury. But if so, then why did not god use another word like "Jara7a" instead of "Kata3a"?
I dont really know. Well, I need help on this.I want however to say that by all what I posted in this thread, I meant that if a punishment is writeen in quran, then we should do it. But I do not however know how to do it. You now made me think there could be another meaning of "kata3a" other than excision.
I want to look more into this. You can also help me as you are an older member fo freeminds.
Peace
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I have to say one thing about this forum....
In all other forums i visited (not only religion-based, but politics, online game, movies, etc....), I never saw anyone showing enough humility to accept the fact that he/she may not know enough, and actually question his opinion.
That's why I think the people in Free-Mind are on the good direction. By being humble, you have more potential to learn and find the right path. One should never be afraid to admit he may be wrong, misinformed or not know enough. This is the better way to learn. -
Selamlar Sword
Salam Sabo,
Maybe you mean that "KATA3a" does not mean cutting totally with bones?
It was used 38 times in Quran with many different meanings.
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob4cde.html?root=%D9%82%D8%B7%D8%B9%0D
I agree, I do not imagine these women cutting their hands with the bones(it is almost impssible for somebody to cut his own bone). They may have caused only some injury. But if so, then why did not god use another word like "Jara7a" instead of "Kata3a"?
I dont really know. Well, I need help on this.I want however to say that by all what I posted in this thread, I meant that if a punishment is writeen in quran, then we should do it. But I do not however know how to do it. You now made me think there could be another meaning of "kata3a" other than excision.
I want to look more into this. You can also help me as you are an older member fo freeminds.
Peace
Search for the word "Jara7tum" in the Quran. You will find that it means something different than causing harm. (Wa ya3lama ma jara7tum bennahar). Be careful that our spoken arabic today in our countries is different than the arabic used in the Quran especially when our understanding can cause harm to people as in the case of 538.
As you could understand that the women didn't cut off their hands, because its not so logical to happen when seeing a beautiful man, the same applies to the physical hands of the thief. God uses in both verses the verb "qata3a" and he doesn't mean cut off. A carefull study of the keywords "qata3a" + "yad" in the quran can lead us to different conclusions.
Sevgilerimle,
sabo -
peace all
CUTTING OFF HANDS OF THIEF
Literal Understanding
The first understanding says that 538 means to cut off the thief's hand. I do not agree with this understanding for the following reasons. First, the Arabic word (aydiya) is the plural (three or more) of (yad) (hand) used in dual form. As we know, each one of us has normally only two hands, including thieves. How can we possibly cut off the hands (three or more) of a thief? Even if we accept that the hands in this ayat refer to the hands of both thieves, should we then cut off both hands of a thief?Second, what will benefit the one who lost his stolen goods in case he would not recover them? And what would happen if someone were accused mistakenly or maliciously of theft and their hands were cut off? What if someone does not have hands and uses only his brain to plan thefts for their accomplices? This is not a fiction; it happened
Third, how could the above ayat 539 be applied if someone has his or her hands cut off and repents later on and reforms? In other words, if cutting the hands in ayat 538 is translated literally to mean cutting off the hands, then ayat 539 cannot stand logic and common sense. Let's assume that someone steals something and pays the heavy price of his or her hands being cutting off, then he or she repents and reforms. What does it mean in his or her case that, "God redeems him, or her. God is Forgiver, Merciful"? (539). How will he or she be redeemed once he or she has lost his or her hands? How could he or she deserve a second chance without his or her hands? Indeed, understanding cutting hands as cutting off hands literally does not stand logic and common sense in the context of these two ayat 538-39 in particular, and in the context of Quran in general.
WA- AS- SAARIQ WA- AS- SAARIQAH FA- IQT.AcO AYDIYA -HUMAA JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA NAKAAL (AN) MIN 'ALLAAH WA- 'ALLAAH cAZEZ H.AKEM 538
As to the thief male or female cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example from Allah for their crime and Allah is Exalted in Power. (Abdullah Yousuf Ali)
Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All Wise. (Muhammad Muhsin Khan)
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Pickthall's)
Surprisingly in Abdullah Yousuf Ali's translation we find missing "Jazaa Bi Maa Kasabaa"
Muhsin Khan translated "Jazaa Bi Maa Kasabaa" as " a RECOMPENSE for that which they COMMITTED"
Pickthall translated "Jazaa Bi Maa Kasabaa" as "It is the REWARD of their OWN DEEDS"
KASAB = to gain win profit earn get obtain acquire
'OLAA'IKA LA- -HUM NAS.EB MIN MAA KASABO WA- 'ALLAAH SAREc AL- H.ISAAB 2202
To these will be allotted WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED and Allah is quick in account. (Yusuf Ali)
WA- RABB -KA AL- GHAFOR DHO AR- RAH.MAH LAW YU'AAKHIDH -HUM BI- MAA KASABO LA- cAJJALA LA- -HUM AL- cADHAAB BAL LA- -HUM MAWcID LAN YAJIDO MIN DONI -HI MAW'IL(AN) 1858
But your Lord is Most Forgiving Full of Mercy. If He were to call them (at once) to account for WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED then surely He would have hastened their Punishment but they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no refuge. 1858
Why the word KASAB is not translated as EARNED?
WA- AS- SAARIQ WA- AS- SAARIQAH
As for the thief, both male and femaleFA- IQT.AcO AYDIYA -HUMAA
Cut off their hands (RESOURCES)JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA
(SHOULD) RECOMPENSE what THEY EARNED / ACQUIRED/OBTAINEDNAKAAL (AN) MIN 'ALLAAH
A punishment by way of example from AllahWA- 'ALLAAH cAZEZ H.AKEM
And Allah is Exalted in PowerQAALO JAZAA' -HU MAN WUJIDA FE RAH.L -HI FA- HUWA JAZAA' -HU KA- DHAALIKA NAJZE AZ.- Z.AALIMEN 1275
They said "The punishment should be that, in whose saddle bag it is found, THEN HE should RECOMPENSE IT. Thus it is we punish the wrongdoers!" 1275
SO THE CORRECT TRANSLATION INVALIDATES THE PHYSICAL CUTTING OF HANDS.
As for the thief, both male and female cut off their hands (RESOURCES) (SHOULD) RECOMPENSE what THEY EARNED / ACQUIRED/OBTAINED A punishment by way of example from Allah And Allah is Exalted in Power
Thanks
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Peace Hafeez,
Good work, alhamdu lillah. Perhaps Swords and others can further learn and contemplate on the fairness and just ways of laws/punishments. I believe the same is true for whipping, lashing, stoning, etc. for adultry. These are all uncivilized and barbaric acts. It is simply a matter of understanding. A while ago, someone had posted a movie clip on how a female was half burried, bagged up and stoned to death. In Karachi, I've witnessed people getting whipped or lashed, profusely bleeding all over to death, speically during Moharram. The number of whips seemed between 20 and 30 and the entire act was over in no time. Talk about 100.
FA- IQT.AcO AYDIYA -HUMAA
Cut off their hands (RESOURCES)As for the thief, both male and female cut off their hands (RESOURCES)) (SHOULD) RECOMPENSE what THEY EARNED / ACQUIRED/OBTAINED A punishment by way of example from Allah And Allah is Exalted in Power
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Salam Sabo, you know Turkish?-)
Salam Hafeez,
First "Aydiyahom" as you said is for 3 or more hands. But this occured only because God there talked about this subject presenting women and men. If God said "sariq" without " sariqa" then "aydiyahom" would not be used. Instead we would see "Yadahosingle" or "Yadaahoplural".
Second, what will benefit the one who lost his stolen goods in case he would not recover them?
The victims right is a different story. This punishment is God's and not intended to benefit the victim. Does imprisoning the thief benefit the victim? I dont think so.
what would happen if someone were accused mistakenly or maliciously of theft and their hands were cut off?
If the world thinks this way then there should be no punishment at all. And let us all wait until criminals come to police stations and explicitely admit their crimes(they dont usually do it). This cannot be a exuse.
What if someone does not have hands and uses only his brain to plan thefts for their accomplices? This is not a fiction; it happened
This is fiction.
If not then we can find a way. Go ahead and imprison him since there is nothing about this in Quran. Judges are free to imagine.However I still say that I am not sure at the moment what "kata3a" means in this context(the aya).
I replied becuase I thought that the above quotes did not apply only on punishments in Quran but to every sentence on earth and hence are irrelevant. Not that I know what the punishment should be.
This was my opinion.Salam brothers and sisters