Completeness of Words of God and proofs of proofs of proofs ....

[noshirk]

Hi everyone,

I think stops and noshirk missed the point of my argument. My argument is that science and religion can work together. Apparently they don't feel the two can work together. Recently atheists have been vehemently attacking religion and saying that religion is counter to science and that science is better. I am sorry if I added a dimension to the discussion that is unwelcome.

I would kindly request that people in this forum not attack others opinions. Disagree you may. But please be polite about it. If someone claims to be a scientist, then why should you doubt it?? If you are interested in proof that I am a scientist, I will say that I have published over 30 journal articles in top peer reviewed scientific journals, some of which are in mathematics, I am also an associate editor for a scientific journal and am a tenured professor. Please be kind with your responses as many people want an inviting forum to learn more about the Quran and true islam. By attacking others you encourage them to go to shi'a chat or ummah.com or other places.

Considerately,
JewishDude

Salaam JewishDude
Salaam to soul and spirit of StopS.

Thank you for responses.
However i am more agree with stopS whom i BELIEVE he is BELIEVING to that he disagree with me on science.

if science and religion can work together then the question his how ?
All what i say is that the two sets of words of GOD have completeness property.
Why universe explains itself ? why universe follow laws that seems respected everywhere in it ?
There is many questions like that for spirit/mind.

It is funny to note that laws of universe are not objects we can touch. Scientifc laws are kind of "ideas/spirituality" that matter follows blindly. Proofs/explanations are also non matter objects. They have to be written and formulated for mind/spirit in a language.
StopS will never understand any scientic proof if it is written in chinese. He cannot think on that proof only because he don't undestand chinese.

it is also funny to note that human mind is quite the only objects that don't follow laws. Even with the same set of Scientic Laws, StopS and me are disagreeing on the field on spirit and thinking. Debate between StopS and me is a no end debate.
For example, whe he says that "Evolution is a fact", i can enter with him in another no end debate. He is free to think that "no reason" mixed to "errors" can build something and that it is a fact. He is free to think that we cannot reproduce the fact because we cannot reproduce the same errors and that it is science. he is free to build theories based on chance with events following probabilistics laws with one time realization each. He is free to call science something that cannot predict nothing even not future species of new ants.
I am, on the other side, free to think that no reason and errors would produce things only like this
"kkkctyc duk*p^kaxnoix giu sdrsghfvyuglugyfeuhknbjhvbvfikkfvikf ?kn "

I am saying also that belief come before proof.
StopS is playing on words.
for example, he said "Newton did not discover gravity or invent it. He explained it."
i can respond, Newton explained gravity because he BELIEVED there was an explanation.
if i wanted to joke, i would add that Newton believed in GOD, the reason of All reasons, the explanation of all explanations. So Newton is not a good example of how atheists make discoveries.

Completeness of the two set of words, according to my opinion, leads to conclusion that there is no need to prove one set from the other.
Science deals with matter.
Quran deals with spirituality.
The two sets are disjoints.
Believers in quran can believe that the two sets are complementary and that the aim of each one is to explain that they have the same God and that he is unique.

I don't know if StopS is a believer or not. However, we can note that he is opposing to me only because i says that completeness and property of aut-explanation of universe have a reason and that that reason is God. But i agree with him to say that science is independant from religion.
StopS and me are a good example of how same facts are differently interpreted by two different sets of Beliefs.

Peace

[faruk]

Salam Noshirk. bravo bravo bravo

[StopS]

Recently atheists have been vehemently attacking religion

Please don't do that. It is unbecoming. Atheists I know have never attacked any religion. Atheists in general are asking more direct and challenging questions and some get frustrated when there are no answers or only lies.

and saying that religion is counter to science and that science is better.

I don't know a single atheist who does this. I hope this is just ignorance and not an intentional lie. Religion and science are opposites. None is worse or better than the other. Science has no opinion on religion and no religious book I know of ever mentions science. So why are you creating a divide and dichotomy that does not exist?

If someone claims to be a scientist, then why should you doubt it??

If someone tells me the opposite of what science is, I have no reason to believe anything. That's why I asked you questions you never answered.

If you are interested in proof that I am a scientist, I will say that I have published over 30 journal articles in top peer reviewed scientific journals, some of which are in mathematics, I am also an associate editor for a scientific journal and am a tenured professor. Please be kind with your responses as many people want an inviting forum to learn more about the Quran and true islam. By attacking others you encourage them to go to shi'a chat or ummah.com or other places.

Considerately,
JewishDude

Don't claim things which you don't live. How can a scientist tell me the total nonsense you wrote in your first comment? How can you claim that Profs Krauss or de Grasse Tyson are finding facts to "show the wonderment of Allahs creation"? That is blatantly untrue! If you were a scientist, you would not even use the word proof! Least of all in connection with a super-natural entity. You would know the difference between fact and truth.

Like I said a scientist doesn't brag I am a scientist or that papers are published in a "top" journal.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

[StopS]

Salaam JewishDude
Salaam to soul and spirit of StopS.

Thank you for responses.
However i am more agree with stopS whom i BELIEVE he is BELIEVING to that he disagree with me on science.

if science and religion can work together then the question his how ?
All what i say is that the two sets of words of GOD have completeness property.
Why universe explains itself ? why universe follow laws that seems respected everywhere in it ?
There is many questions like that for spirit/mind.

It is funny to note that laws of universe are not objects we can touch. Scientifc laws are kind of "ideas/spirituality" that matter follows blindly. Proofs/explanations are also non matter objects. They have to be written and formulated for mind/spirit in a language.
StopS will never understand any scientic proof if it is written in chinese. He cannot think on that proof only because he don't undestand chinese.

it is also funny to note that human mind is quite the only objects that don't follow laws. Even with the same set of Scientic Laws, StopS and me are disagreeing on the field on spirit and thinking. Debate between StopS and me is a no end debate.
For example, whe he says that "Evolution is a fact", i can enter with him in another no end debate. He is free to think that "no reason" mixed to "errors" can build something and that it is a fact. He is free to think that we cannot reproduce the fact because we cannot reproduce the same errors and that it is science. he is free to build theories based on chance with events following probabilistics laws with one time realization each. He is free to call science something that cannot predict nothing even not future species of new ants.
I am, on the other side, free to think that no reason and errors would produce things only like this
"kkkctyc duk*p^kaxnoix giu sdrsghfvyuglugyfeuhknbjhvbvfikkfvikf ?kn "

I am saying also that belief come before proof.
StopS is playing on words.
for example, he said "Newton did not discover gravity or invent it. He explained it."
i can respond, Newton explained gravity because he BELIEVED there was an explanation.
if i wanted to joke, i would add that Newton believed in GOD, the reason of All reasons, the explanation of all explanations. So Newton is not a good example of how atheists make discoveries.

Completeness of the two set of words, according to my opinion, leads to conclusion that there is no need to prove one set from the other.
Science deals with matter.
Quran deals with spirituality.
The two sets are disjoints.
Believers in quran can believe that the two sets are complementary and that the aim of each one is to explain that they have the same God and that he is unique.

I don't know if StopS is a believer or not. However, we can note that he is opposing to me only because i says that completeness and property of aut-explanation of universe have a reason and that that reason is God. But i agree with him to say that science is independant from religion.
StopS and me are a good example of how same facts are differently interpreted by two different sets of Beliefs.

Peace

Thanks for the explanation, which holds a lot of truth and a genuine attempt to understand and reconcile.

Would we disagree on the role of a hammer? I doubt it. So why are we disagreeing on what science does or says or demonstrates or claims? Science is just a tool.

I don't think I would call what I am doing is playing on words. I just see these huge misconceptions and am thus trying to bring some understanding into the topic by providing definitions which can be used as a basis for a discussion.

Evolution is a fact and there is no debate possible. We can only debate the explanation. The same with gravity. It is a fact and not the belief that an apple always falls in the same, identical direction here on Earth led to the explanation and the subsequent laws. No, sorry, belief is not part of any scientific law. Oh and Newton was a theist. As was Darwin.

You don't understand science in general and evolution in particular. I have told you several times that chance does not enter into the equation - yet you faithfully bring it up again. Why?

If you don't understand something, why don't you ask?
I come here because I lack an understanding of Islam. So I test what I know and people correct me when I am wrong and I am grateful for that. And I try to apply what I learnt and don't make the same mistake over and over and again.

Our discussion has however managed to teach both of us something
I have seen that the misconceptions are rooted very deep in the thinking and that my blunt approach of showing reality does not work.
You are starting to see not only that and the fact but also why religion and science don't mix.

And we didn't even throw around any insults )

[JewishDude]

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate everyones comments. What I am trying to say is that science and religion can work together. The Quran tells us

"contemplate the wonders of creation" (Quran 3191).

This is a direct reference to telling us to study science.

"Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2164)

These are where Allah is telling us "Proof" of his existence.

So since the Quran tells us to study science and encourages science, I think Science and Religion are compatible. The Quran tries to give many proofs. These two work together. Karl Gauss believed in God. Darwin believed in God. But they were looking for wonderment in creation.

On a side note I don't really care if you believe I am a Scientist or not. Everytime the phone rings and someone asks for my help on their scientific question is validation enough that I am a scientist. And most scientists are a bit arrogant.

Again I ask that personal attacks be kept to a minimum as it distracts from the conversation.

Just my two cents...

JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace

[noshirk]

Evolution is a fact and there is no debate possible

Salaam StopS
I spent time to write you a response, and i hope you will spent time just to read it.

It depends on what you call a fact. (please don't stop on bad translations since i learned science in French).
Dinosaures are facts. Australopithecus are facts. Homo erectus are facts.
The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory.
Unless you take a species and let evolution work alone in laboratories, you cannot prove that "chance"+errors + selection is the only process that is working.

Let's take an example.
suppose there is a nuclear war and human disappers from earth. Many centuries after, aliens come and find some "rests" of cars. They will remark that differents models are similar and that some models are more developped than other. they will then set an "evolutionnary" diagram of cars and claim there is relation between cars and that is logical to suppose they descent from each others. These are facts.
Now, since they see ne engineers in earth, some of them can imagine that a specie tried may cars by errors and each time they select the best one.
That's a theory.
They can else believe, until they find and human fossile, that the intelligent specie is the monks. That's a theory.
It is also possible that an alien engeneer declares " NO. There is conception there. I think there was engeneers on earth". That is also a theory since he found no engeneer around.
So another alien archeologist came and found plans of cars like our geneticians find DNA genetics plan.
But, between aliens, there is Atheist/priests who says that God gave intelligence only to aliens.
Some Aliens atheits then will think that plans of cars descent from each other. They will search for a mechanism that transform plans in cars.
Others Alien archeologist discover then rest of Factories. They found the searched mechanism.
But from where appeared mechanisms ?
Others Aliens archeologists come and discover olders factories. So factories descent from each others will says aliens.

No need to continue.
The only facts in Evolution are fossiles and DNA. The story around is only a theory and i can find another theory that explains the same facts and put there a great conceptor because i am used to think that were there is plans there is a planner and when there is concepton, there is conceptor.

But debate has no end.
I already tried to put scientifc arguments in front of evolutionists. I never succeeded to convince because our set of beliefs are totally differents even if we have the same set of facts and that we live in the same earth.
For example, hands and foots don't descent from each other. They have different plans but result look same. How to explain that with errors and selection ?

You don't understand science in general and evolution in particular. I have told you several times that chance does not enter into the equation - yet you faithfully bring it up again. Why?

If you don't understand something, why don't you ask?

That is a belief. You don't know who i am but you have deduced that since i believe in quran and i have a different view than you in science then i should surely have less knowledge from you in science.

I come here because I lack an understanding of Islam. So I test what I know and people correct me when I am wrong and I am grateful for that. And I try to apply what I learnt and don't make the same mistake over and over and again.

it is fantastic. At least, we have a domain where you can admit that i know more that you.
I can then use islam to show you errors you can make by having false system of beliefs.

My question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the Islamic god and creator, exists and is responsible for everything - yet does not pray, does not pay anything to anybody, does not fast and never travels to Mecca?

That is what i call a question totally based on false beliefs.
Let's analyse. Now, in islam, we can suppose that Quran are islamic facts and that Hadiths and Books of scholars are theories we are not sure they are true or false.
1-who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher no problems
2- believes a god, the Islamic god and creator good thing
3- yet does not pray That's a belief. i don't pray the way muslims do. I read quran and think about God.
4 does not pay anything to anybody Also a belief. I think that you are pointing to Zakat. I think that Zakat is Mind Purification. Charity in Quran is called Sadaqa.
5 does not fast Belief also. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that fast=no eat and no drink
6 and never travels to Mecca Also a Belief. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that Hajj=go, at least once, to a city called mecca and turn around a cubic stone.

Your question is totally based on gadget of 5 Pillars.
I reject the five in their actual form (i don't testify that God is the only God and dont testify that Muhammad is his prophet. I have seen nothing and this formula is not in quran and is clealy a false testimony).

After first purification, according to my own set of beliefs, (i remove also the islamic god terminology based on the belief that islam is a religion who came with muhammad while quranic facts tells the contrary and says that islam came with Abraham), your question become

My question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the creator, exists and is responsible for everything - does not pay anything to anybody ?

Here we have another problem. It is too much easy for our teacher to claim he believes in God. What is the proof ?
Quran tell you that if you believe in God, then you have to give him a loan under the form of Charity to poors. He promise you to give it back in the thereafter multiplied many times during all the eternety. The gain is obvious. No sincere believer can refuse this exchange.
Again, i have to purify the question

My question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the creator, exists and is responsible for everything and make him loans when God asked him for loans ?

Response He go to paradise.

Now, i suppose that you are not happy by response and you want to change the question

My question what do you think happens to a Human who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, who don't believes in god, but make many good things in his life, helped poors ....?

This question is also based on a huge belief. The belief that we are here to make good things. The belief that good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell. Quran never said something like that.

Heaven is the garden (Jenna) of God. Why would he accept there people that don't belief in him, reject his orders and follows others educators (Rabb/Arbabs).
Quran says that Good actions of unbelievers are nullified. It is not what it is asked. Totally out of topic.

Now, face to God, our teacher have no good valuable actions to present and can no more pass the eternity near who he rejected. He obviously cannot be a good subject to his lord and reasons for his goods actions are in the unknown state.
What will happen to him then ?
Hell, if not heaven, would be response based on another enormous religious belief (really, dear StopS, you are a very difficult case).

In page 2 of quran we have already a response.
26 As for those who reject, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe (the no end debate i told you).
27 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes are covers. They will incur a great retribution (adhab).

Rejectors are opposed to liars
28 And from the people are those who say "We believe in God and in the Last Day," but they are not believers.
29 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution (adhab) for what they have denied.

For many people, ADHAB means supplice. But that word means originally separation or exile.
Hell (painfull adhab) is then the promise for liars and those who contributed to propagate lies on God. The ennemies of God who call themselves muslims and who lost people take as representative of islam.

Now, let suppose that our teacher never did something like that.
I think that the only thing he can hope is a simple and not painful destruction/dissolution of his soul. Destruction and no reward by what he rejected. It is justice.

However our teacher have to respond to the big question of God ?
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words ?
Hope that our teacher not only relied on beliefs not based on facts and didn't helped to propagate sayings in wich it is told that God don't exists and even if he existed what he said is total stupidity.

According to my own lecture of Quran, there will be a time where no one can claim to be neutral about the question of God. It will be a time where unbelievers and badbelievers will face each other in all places in the world and no one can claim to be behind an iron wall (18-98 to 18-102). According to quran, there will be a time where quran will dominate all the religion of God (48-28; 61-9).
I remind you that Muhammad is not more arab than Jesus or Moses and that is also a belief, a very stupid belief. Just episodes in the same story.

I dont have the scale of God for the judgement day. He is the only who decide. He is the only forgiver.
I don't know what did the last who will enter heaven and what did the last who will enter heaven.
We can continue in no end debate. At a point, i will have no aswer to questions about God since i am not God, and i never seen him.

if you want to know what muslims think, you can read forums until the end of your life and i guaranty you you will never get a response.
if you waat to know what God says, just open his book and read it with mind freed from false beliefs and what so called muslims said and what unknown noshirk said.
if you do that, just remind that god has full access read and write on your mind (it is in quran).
I remind you also that Quran is complete in spirit world. You will lean there how human mind and soul works if you don't says That is old stories about ancients.
Who knows ? perhaps you will have, one day, to respond to the question
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words (and why have you just followed what others said about me)?

Peace

[noshirk]

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate everyones comments. What I am trying to say is that science and religion can work together. The Quran tells us

"contemplate the wonders of creation" (Quran 3191).

This is a direct reference to telling us to study science.

"Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2164)

These are where Allah is telling us "Proof" of his existence.

So since the Quran tells us to study science and encourages science, I think Science and Religion are compatible. The Quran tries to give many proofs. These two work together. Karl Gauss believed in God. Darwin believed in God. But they were looking for wonderment in creation.

On a side note I don't really care if you believe I am a Scientist or not. Everytime the phone rings and someone asks for my help on their scientific question is validation enough that I am a scientist. And most scientists are a bit arrogant.

Again I ask that personal attacks be kept to a minimum as it distracts from the conversation.

Just my two cents...

JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace

Salam JewishDude
you case is much easier than StopS case.

I totally agree with you. I even called science a second quran, the second set of words of God.

There are not just not compatible. There are complementary in a sense that they deals with two dual aspects the matter and spirit.
Really, i recognize from the style, the reason and the logic of the writer, that the writer of two set words is the same writer.

There is people who says that Quran and science are separated in the sense that quran has not to obey to logic, reasoning, demonstration ....
in the contrary, i think that quran has to be studied as we study science. Quran has to be purified from old theories and mythologies surrounding him.
Quran is science, another science, science of human spirit, of how they think and assemble in spiritual communauties.

Peace

[StopS]

Salaam StopS
I spent time to write you a response, and i hope you will spent time just to read it.

Sure. And it's long and detailed, so this means something to you.

It depends on what you call a fact. (please don't stop on bad translations since i learned science in French).
Dinosaures are facts. Australopithecus are facts. Homo erectus are facts.
The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory.
Unless you take a species and let evolution work alone in laboratories, you cannot prove that "chance"+errors + selection is the only process that is working.

I hear this a lot. And this is what I wanted to explain to people earlier. No, it is not a matter of opinion, whether on not something is a fact.
"The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory."

That is a problem. No, the process you describe does not exist. There is no "one state to another". If that would exist it would show our understanding of evolution is wrong.

Biological Evolution happens in nature. Natural and organic evolution has happened for 3.8 billion years on this planet. What Darwin did is use the information supplied by generations of scientists and brought it together to explain evolution. So we need to understand something very important. Our, the scientists, explanation of evolution is called a theory. It is based on facts. It is based on reproducible and falsifiable data as well as experiments. What the word theory means is that this is based on facts and several people have managed to verify the results and even though 1000s of scientists have tried to falsify or find errors in the theory, it has shown to be robust and elegant at the same time. So if anyone has doubts as to whether the theory - the human explanation - of evolution is wrong, faulty, erroneous or flawed can immediately write this down, show the evidence and the theory will be replaced. This person would be the hero of the scientific world, which is why several people have tried this and have failed, as there has never been any explanation which made any sense other than what Darwin started and what has been modified and updated for the last 150 years.

There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief.

The 2nd thing is that evolution does not address or cover or mention in any way the origin of life. So it does not contradict the Koran. We had a Muslim Imam on the Jinn&Tonic show 2 weeks ago who explained the Islamic processes as described in the Koran and he showed everyone that evolution is fully compatible with the Koran and does not present a logical or theistic boundary. The level of misinformation is astounding when it comes to this topic, so I can only advise people to learn about it and not just close their eyes.

Let's take an example.
suppose there is a nuclear war and human disappers from earth. Many centuries after, aliens come and find some "rests" of cars. They will remark that differents models are similar and that some models are more developped than other. they will then set an "evolutionnary" diagram of cars and claim there is relation between cars and that is logical to suppose they descent from each others. These are facts.
Now, since they see ne engineers in earth, some of them can imagine that a specie tried may cars by errors and each time they select the best one.
That's a theory.

Whoa, not so fast. A scientific theory is the highest form of a description anything gets. Just because someone has an idea, this is not a theory. In "normal" life yes. If I have a theory why Arsenal lost last weekend, it is my personal theory. In science, it is a bit different. Actually it's vastly different. What you are describing would be an idea or a hypothesis.

They can else believe, until they find and human fossile, that the intelligent specie is the monks. That's a theory.
It is also possible that an alien engeneer declares " NO. There is conception there. I think there was engeneers on earth". That is also a theory since he found no engeneer around.
So another alien archeologist came and found plans of cars like our geneticians find DNA genetics plan.
But, between aliens, there is Atheist/priests who says that God gave intelligence only to aliens.
Some Aliens atheits then will think that plans of cars descent from each other. They will search for a mechanism that transform plans in cars.
Others Alien archeologist discover then rest of Factories. They found the searched mechanism.
But from where appeared mechanisms ?
Others Aliens archeologists come and discover olders factories. So factories descent from each others will says aliens.

Are you aware that cars are not organic and not self-replicating? This kills your idea because cars have indeed "evolved" over time. Comparing a beetle with a new beetle demonstrates this nicely. But this is due to human engineering advancements, not cars developing by themselves through natural processes.

No need to continue.
The only facts in Evolution are fossiles and DNA.

Oh no! Where do you get this from?

The story around is only a theory and i can find another theory that explains the same facts and put there a great conceptor because i am used to think that were there is plans there is a planner and when there is concepton, there is conceptor.

Please promise me you will NEVER again use the wording "only a theory" or "just a theory"? Please!

Now, if you can prove a "planner" or a "designer", the theory of evolution will be thrown out and replaced by your theory, yes.

But debate has no end.
I already tried to put scientifc arguments in front of evolutionists. I never succeeded to convince because our set of beliefs are totally differents even if we have the same set of facts and that we live in the same earth.
For example, hands and foots don't descent from each other. They have different plans but result look same. How to explain that with errors and selection ?
That is a belief. You don't know who i am but you have deduced that since i believe in quran and i have a different view than you in science then i should surely have less knowledge from you in science.
it is fantastic. At least, we have a domain where you can admit that i know more that you.
I can then use islam to show you errors you can make by having false system of beliefs.

I disagree with you when it comes to your ideas with hands and feet.
I agree with you regarding your knowledge on the Koran.

But since the Koran is not scientifically accurate and not a science textbook you can correct me in spiritual matters, but not when it comes to science.

That is what i call a question totally based on false beliefs.
Let's analyse. Now, in islam, we can suppose that Quran are islamic facts and that Hadiths and Books of scholars are theories we are not sure they are true or false.
1-who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher no problems
2- believes a god, the Islamic god and creator good thing
3- yet does not pray That's a belief. i don't pray the way muslims do. I read quran and think about God.
4 does not pay anything to anybody Also a belief. I think that you are pointing to Zakat. I think that Zakat is Mind Purification. Charity in Quran is called Sadaqa.
5 does not fast Belief also. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that fast=no eat and no drink
6 and never travels to Mecca Also a Belief. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that Hajj=go, at least once, to a city called mecca and turn around a cubic stone.

Your question is totally based on gadget of 5 Pillars.
I reject the five in their actual form (i don't testify that God is the only God and dont testify that Muhammad is his prophet. I have seen nothing and this formula is not in quran and is clealy a false testimony).

Great! I am happy that we agree on something and that we found this via respectful and peaceful communication.

After first purification, according to my own set of beliefs, (i remove also the islamic god terminology based on the belief that islam is a religion who came with muhammad while quranic facts tells the contrary and says that islam came with Abraham), your question become
Here we have another problem. It is too much easy for our teacher to claim he believes in God. What is the proof ?
Quran tell you that if you believe in God, then you have to give him a loan under the form of Charity to poors. He promise you to give it back in the thereafter multiplied many times during all the eternety. The gain is obvious. No sincere believer can refuse this exchange.
Again, i have to purify the questionResponse He go to paradise.

Now, i suppose that you are not happy by response and you want to change the question
This question is also based on a huge belief. The belief that we are here to make good things. The belief that good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell. Quran never said something like that.

No, not at all. I actually asked my questions in a different thread to this one. But it is about proof as well, so it's ok I guess. I think that the Koran provides spiritual guidance and it is up to you to decide what you think is the right way. The 6 points you mentioned above are what I see with more modern Muslims, who don't really need to have the traditional sunnah which can be changed to show what you want. You have chosen what you think is right and I respect that. I think you are taking religion the way it should be, if your personality requires a god and is taking spiritual comfort and strength from it.

Heaven is the garden (Jenna) of God. Why would he accept there people that don't belief in him, reject his orders and follows others educators (Rabb/Arbabs).
Quran says that Good actions of unbelievers are nullified. It is not what it is asked. Totally out of topic.

Now, face to God, our teacher have no good valuable actions to present and can no more pass the eternity near who he rejected. He obviously cannot be a good subject to his lord and reasons for his goods actions are in the unknown state.
What will happen to him then ?
Hell, if not heaven, would be response based on another enormous religious belief (really, dear StopS, you are a very difficult case).

In page 2 of quran we have already a response.
26 As for those who reject, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe (the no end debate i told you).
27 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes are covers. They will incur a great retribution (adhab).

Rejectors are opposed to liars
28 And from the people are those who say "We believe in God and in the Last Day," but they are not believers.
29 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution (adhab) for what they have denied.

For many people, ADHAB means supplice. But that word means originally separation or exile.
Hell (painfull adhab) is then the promise for liars and those who contributed to propagate lies on God. The ennemies of God who call themselves muslims and who lost people take as representative of islam.

Now, let suppose that our teacher never did something like that.
I think that the only thing he can hope is a simple and not painful destruction/dissolution of his soul. Destruction and no reward by what he rejected. It is justice.

However our teacher have to respond to the big question of God ?
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words ?
Hope that our teacher not only relied on beliefs not based on facts and didn't helped to propagate sayings in wich it is told that God don't exists and even if he existed what he said is total stupidity.

According to my own lecture of Quran, there will be a time where no one can claim to be neutral about the question of God. It will be a time where unbelievers and badbelievers will face each other in all places in the world and no one can claim to be behind an iron wall (18-98 to 18-102). According to quran, there will be a time where quran will dominate all the religion of God (48-28; 61-9).
I remind you that Muhammad is not more arab than Jesus or Moses and that is also a belief, a very stupid belief. Just episodes in the same story.

I dont have the scale of God for the judgement day. He is the only who decide. He is the only forgiver.
I don't know what did the last who will enter heaven and what did the last who will enter heaven.
We can continue in no end debate. At a point, i will have no aswer to questions about God since i am not God, and i never seen him.

That is what you believe and that is what you have chosen.

if you want to know what muslims think, you can read forums until the end of your life and i guaranty you you will never get a response.
if you waat to know what God says, just open his book and read it with mind freed from false beliefs and what so called muslims said and what unknown noshirk said.
if you do that, just remind that god has full access read and write on your mind (it is in quran).
I remind you also that Quran is complete in spirit world. You will lean there how human mind and soul works if you don't says That is old stories about ancients.
Who knows ? perhaps you will have, one day, to respond to the question
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words (and why have you just followed what others said about me)?

Peace

Yes and no. I can read the book for 20 years and never experience reality. I have read the book and many other texts so now I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives. How you handle evolution and how you see modern changes in greedy bankers and egoistic petrol companies but also oppressive Taliban.

Thank you for your open words.

[noshirk]

Sure. And it's long and detailed, so this means something to you.

I hear this a lot. And this is what I wanted to explain to people earlier. No, it is not a matter of opinion, whether on not something is a fact.
"The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory."

That is a problem. No, the process you describe does not exist. There is no "one state to another". If that would exist it would show our understanding of evolution is wrong.

Biological Evolution happens in nature. Natural and organic evolution has happened for 3.8 billion years on this planet. What Darwin did is use the information supplied by generations of scientists and brought it together to explain evolution. So we need to understand something very important. Our, the scientists, explanation of evolution is called a theory. It is based on facts. It is based on reproducible and falsifiable data as well as experiments. What the word theory means is that this is based on facts and several people have managed to verify the results and even though 1000s of scientists have tried to falsify or find errors in the theory, it has shown to be robust and elegant at the same time. So if anyone has doubts as to whether the theory - the human explanation - of evolution is wrong, faulty, erroneous or flawed can immediately write this down, show the evidence and the theory will be replaced. This person would be the hero of the scientific world, which is why several people have tried this and have failed, as there has never been any explanation which made any sense other than what Darwin started and what has been modified and updated for the last 150 years.

There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief.

The 2nd thing is that evolution does not address or cover or mention in any way the origin of life. So it does not contradict the Koran. We had a Muslim Imam on the Jinn&Tonic show 2 weeks ago who explained the Islamic processes as described in the Koran and he showed everyone that evolution is fully compatible with the Koran and does not present a logical or theistic boundary. The level of misinformation is astounding when it comes to this topic, so I can only advise people to learn about it and not just close their eyes.

Whoa, not so fast. A scientific theory is the highest form of a description anything gets. Just because someone has an idea, this is not a theory. In "normal" life yes. If I have a theory why Arsenal lost last weekend, it is my personal theory. In science, it is a bit different. Actually it's vastly different. What you are describing would be an idea or a hypothesis.

Are you aware that cars are not organic and not self-replicating? This kills your idea because cars have indeed "evolved" over time. Comparing a beetle with a new beetle demonstrates this nicely. But this is due to human engineering advancements, not cars developing by themselves through natural processes.

Oh no! Where do you get this from?

Please promise me you will NEVER again use the wording "only a theory" or "just a theory"? Please!

Now, if you can prove a "planner" or a "designer", the theory of evolution will be thrown out and replaced by your theory, yes.

I disagree with you when it comes to your ideas with hands and feet.
I agree with you regarding your knowledge on the Koran.

But since the Koran is not scientifically accurate and not a science textbook you can correct me in spiritual matters, but not when it comes to science.

Great! I am happy that we agree on something and that we found this via respectful and peaceful communication.

No, not at all. I actually asked my questions in a different thread to this one. But it is about proof as well, so it's ok I guess. I think that the Koran provides spiritual guidance and it is up to you to decide what you think is the right way. The 6 points you mentioned above are what I see with more modern Muslims, who don't really need to have the traditional sunnah which can be changed to show what you want. You have chosen what you think is right and I respect that. I think you are taking religion the way it should be, if your personality requires a god and is taking spiritual comfort and strength from it.

That is what you believe and that is what you have chosen.

Yes and no. I can read the book for 20 years and never experience reality. I have read the book and many other texts so now I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives. How you handle evolution and how you see modern changes in greedy bankers and egoistic petrol companies but also oppressive Taliban.

Thank you for your open words.

Salaam StopS

I have very bad news for you.
From my set of beliefs, you are more Muslim than talibans.
Let me explain.

To be Muslim to God, we have first to reject all Human Bullshiths about God. You seems to have successfully succeeded this step. Not the talibans.
The next step, always from my set of beliefs, is to accept/receive words of God. That seems, from my set of Beliefs, more difficult for you.

For ease of speak, i will consider that you are an atheist (really, i am not sure of that).
In fact, the God you rejected is the God drawn by talibans and all talibans of all religions.
You rejected their set of Beliefs. It is a great progress. But your rejection is based on set of Beliefs of Stupids and that is not very smart.

I would be very happy to respond to arguments based on Quran. That is on What God said and not on what stupids said that god said.
You cannot find truth by showing that all lies are lies. This would take an infinite time and you would nerver discover truth.

Why Arsenal lost ? Very good question. But it is based also on a belief that there is a reason.
Scientits of Football can speaks hours and hours and tell you why they think that Arsenal lost.
But we can repeat the experience. Bring the same players and tell them to repeat the game. And perhaps, Arsenal will won. Whatever Theory explaining Why Arsenal have lost would then be falsified.
Scientist of Football will says that conditions of the new experience are not exactly the same as the first one. No end debate again, because they think football is science and there is a why for the lost of Arsenal. They think also that the why is in the football science.

But only what we can do is to see HOW Arsenal Lost. To see that, you need to take a video and watch it. Cameraman will show you the facts, the true facts, whith no why and no theory. You are free to follow the scientist of football you take as Rabb in football and you are free to use your own mind.

Concerning Evolution, we have facts. We can both see the same play. But there is no reason that we share the same interpretation.
You want to see there success of errors , you are free.
You want to see there schema drawn by blinds mechanisms, you are free.
You want to take as falsifiable something while you know you cannot repeat the experience, you are free.
You want to reject reason of all reasons based on stupidity of all stupids, you are free.

However there is no reason i would adopt your sets of beliefs, even if you call them facts. That is because you are not my rabb (teacher/educator).

There is someone who wrote book. I found the book intellectually defiyng. Beyond human capacity. This book give a theory of why for all things.
The writer of this book said "You will never see me, I wrote also universe. I this book, i will tell you why. I will tell you also why you will never find other reason than me. For that, you have to follow only me and don't follow stupids. ".

You know what ? I believed him.

You said "I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives".
Really, forget that dream. It is an advice from me. Even Muslims cannot understand that.
You cannot get reason from errors like hadithists cannot extract truth from lies.

You said also "There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief."

I know that from your set of your beliefs, you will never belief that i have read some of those books and that i found them not convincing. Your religion is totally false for me.
Like sharia for hadithers, you are not able to show me book and tell me " That book about evolution is All true and truth. There is no contradictions there".

However i can show a scientific book that says "Evolution is full of contradictions".
http//www.amazon.fr/Evolution-Theory-Crisis-Michael-Denton/dp/091756152X
The guy is not even Muslim. He is a scientist, talking by science, to Evolutionnists believers.

The funny thing is that , like many astronomists, he became an adept of "anthropocentric presumption".
that "presumtion" says that there exists a "long chain of coincidence" where the laws of nature are specifically adapted for the only type of life which can exist in the universe.
These scientists who admitted these principle based their set of Beliefs on the observation that, really, it is impossible that there is no reason behind all theses reasons and reason. They don't know who is the conceptor but they clearly find a conception.

Yes and no. I can read the book for 20 years and never experience reality.

Impossible. Quran says that if you don't understand the book (or at least a major part of it) then your mind is necesserally polluted by false systems of beliefs.

I have read the book and many other texts.

Ha! ha!. That's it.

Peace

[StopS]

Salaam StopS

I have very bad news for you. From my set of beliefs, you are more Muslim than talibans. Let me explain.

Hahaha, OK, this is a first for me.

To be Muslim to God, we have first to reject all Human Bullshiths about God. You seems to have successfully succeeded this step. Not the talibans.
The next step, always from my set of beliefs, is to accept/receive words of God. That seems, from my set of Beliefs, more difficult for you.

Correct.

For ease of speak, i will consider that you are an atheist (really, i am not sure of that).
In fact, the God you rejected is the God drawn by talibans and all talibans of all religions.
You rejected their set of Beliefs. It is a great progress. But your rejection is based on set of Beliefs of Stupids and that is not very smart.

Correction I do not "reject" any god. For an atheist that would be absurd. I simply lack a belief. But you have my full attention so far.

I would be very happy to respond to arguments based on Quran. That is on What God said and not on what stupids said that god said.
You cannot find truth by showing that all lies are lies. This would take an infinite time and you would nerver discover truth.

Isn't the number of truths equal to the untruths/lies?

Why Arsenal lost ? Very good question. But it is based also on a belief that there is a reason.
Scientits of Football can speaks hours and hours and tell you why they think that Arsenal lost.
But we can repeat the experience. Bring the same players and tell them to repeat the game. And perhaps, Arsenal will won. Whatever Theory explaining Why Arsenal have lost would then be falsified.
Scientist of Football will says that conditions of the new experience are not exactly the same as the first one. No end debate again, because they think football is science and there is a why for the lost of Arsenal. They think also that the why is in the football science.

But only what we can do is to see HOW Arsenal Lost. To see that, you need to take a video and watch it. Cameraman will show you the facts, the true facts, whith no why and no theory. You are free to follow the scientist of football you take as Rabb in football and you are free to use your own mind.

You are taking a flippant remark too serious. This was just to show that a layman's understanding of a theory is completely and utterly different to that of a scientist.

Concerning Evolution, we have facts. We can both see the same play. But there is no reason that we share the same interpretation.
You want to see there success of errors , you are free.
You want to see there schema drawn by blinds mechanisms, you are free.
You want to take as falsifiable something while you know you cannot repeat the experience, you are free.
You want to reject reason of all reasons based on stupidity of all stupids, you are free.

However there is no reason i would adopt your sets of beliefs, even if you call them facts. That is because you are not my rabb (teacher/educator).

I don't think I have a set of beliefs. Just do me a favour and replace "evolution" with "gravity". Would you repeat the sentences or would you hesitate?

Also, I think your understanding of "falsifiable" is not what a scientist understands. Here, it means that you can find something which does not fit our description which means it is false and requires to be reworked. So far, nobody has managed to falsify the theory of evolution. So it's not a matter of belief or view, but a fact. But again this does not have any impact on Islam or the understanding of the Koran.

There is someone who wrote book. I found the book intellectually defiyng. Beyond human capacity. This book give a theory of why for all things.
The writer of this book said "You will never see me, I wrote also universe. I this book, i will tell you why. I will tell you also why you will never find other reason than me. For that, you have to follow only me and don't follow stupids. ".

You know what ? I believed him.

I don't understand this part.

You said "I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives".
Really, forget that dream. It is an advice from me. Even Muslims cannot understand that.
You cannot get reason from errors like hadithists cannot extract truth from lies.

Ok, yes, to a certain extent I agree with you. But I try. And yes, I also agree with you that the incorporation of hadiths makes Islam look bad, which is why I rejected their veracity very early in my studies.

You said also "There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief."

I know that from your set of your beliefs, you will never belief that i have read some of those books and that i found them not convincing. Your religion is totally false for me.
Like sharia for hadithers, you are not able to show me book and tell me " That book about evolution is All true and truth. There is no contradictions there".

"Your religion is totally false for me." To not have a religion is not the name of a religion. I don't hold beliefs which are unreasonable. I believe the sun will be there tomorrow. But very little else. Why should a science textbook on evolutionary biolgy contain contradictions. I don't understand that claim. Can you show me an example?

However i can show a scientific book that says "Evolution is full of contradictions".
http//www.amazon.fr/Evolution-Theory-Crisis-Michael-Denton/dp/091756152X
The guy is not even Muslim. He is a scientist, talking by science, to Evolutionnists believers.

"Evolution A Theory in Crisis" is a book written almost 30 years ago by a proponent of the Christian Intelligent Design movement, who did not even understand the theory and has more mistakes than a Swiss cheese has holes.
Read 2 critiques yourself so that you don't think it is me
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html
http//www.2think.org/eatic.shtml

The funny thing is that , like many astronomists, he became an adept of "anthropocentric presumption".
that "presumtion" says that there exists a "long chain of coincidence" where the laws of nature are specifically adapted for the only type of life which can exist in the universe.
These scientists who admitted these principle based their set of Beliefs on the observation that, really, it is impossible that there is no reason behind all theses reasons and reason. They don't know who is the conceptor but they clearly find a conception.
Impossible. Quran says that if you don't understand the book (or at least a major part of it) then your mind is necesserally polluted by false systems of beliefs.
Ha! ha!. That's it.

Peace

Do you REALLY have a rational reason to think that evolution is not happening?
Do you REALLY think that the 1000s of scientists who work with and in evolutionary biology are just there for show and are all wrong?
I don't think that religion and science get along and we should stop mixing them. It only confuses people.

[noshirk]

Salaam StopS.

I don't think I have a set of beliefs. Just do me a favour and replace "evolution" with "gravity". Would you repeat the sentences or would you hesitate?

No problem. When you see sun movement, you can believe that it turn around earth. In fact, it is just illusion and apperance and it is due to own rotation of earth.
Many believe that gravity is something that exists. gravity is also a belief and relativy says that object go straight in a space distorted.
"Gravitational attraction" is a belief. It seems like if objects are attracted but it is probably only space distortion.
The graviton is believed to be the particle that transmits gravity. it is only in models and there is no proove of existance.
So, until now, we see facts (appearant attraction) and whe don't now how, by wich mean and why.

I don't understand this part.

I was speaking of God and Quran. I am not surprised you did'nt see them

"Your religion is totally false for me." To not have a religion is not the name of a religion. I don't hold beliefs which are unreasonable. I believe the sun will be there tomorrow. But very little else. Why should a science textbook on evolutionary biolgy contain contradictions. I don't understand that claim. Can you show me an example?
+
I simply lack a belief
+
I don't think I have a set of beliefs.

Sorry but you have many beliefs and that is a fact. It is just that you call them facts.

For example you believe in your brain. And when your brain tells you that a belief is fact, you believe him. When my brain tells you that your facts are beliefs you dont believe my brain. So at least, you believe that your brain is smarter than mine.
You observe in all human mankind how much stupidity a brain can produce and you still believe in your brain.
Even your brain deceived you many times and made many errors and you still believe in your brain when it tells you that your beliefs are facts.
You know that your brain will probably completely derail when you will be very old and you still believe him.
At least, it seems to me that worship your brain. But it is a false God. Don't put faith in him. Brain is a deceiver.

Evolution is what we call a tautology.
Errors produce multiples variants and natural selection select the better.
What is the better ? the better is what succeed in reproduction. Sometimes it is the sronger, sometimes the smaller, sometimes the white, sometimes the black, and even, for bees for example, who reproduce is who helps other with similar genes to reproduce...
Evolution can explian also why some species decided to no more use Evolution (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil). Ther became too succesfull.

But Evolution explain the realisation only by the realisation itself. No prediction can be done.
Realisation could have been other that we observe but Evolution knows always why and how only after the realisation. Always the same song.
Is that a science ?

When Darwin "discovered" the so called Science of Evolution, he didn't knew nothing about something called gene or genetics. He discovered absolutely nothing else than words who predict only what happened. Is that a science ?

Australopithecus was selected because they were, in a way, "advanced". They disappeared because they were "less advanced". However, we have to believe thet they were more advanced than monkeys and many kinds of animals that have not disappeared. Same arguments can explains a fact and his opposite.
Is that science ?

Theory of Evolution is just words and hadiths. Therory of Evolution is a religion and Darwin is its prophet. Theory of Evolution extract his truth from non reproductible errors and sayings of people who was never there when events happened. Evolution is just tales on facts.

Look at yourself StopS. You were a baby and grow up until the adult size. Modifications in your external apperance are by slowly changes you can see in a mirror. They are so tiny that you cannot see the difference between a day and the day after. And you know that the mecanism is not Evolution, errors and chance. You know that all that is written in your DNA and what seems slowly changes are just a program being applied. You know even how is the programmed end.
Don't waste your time to respond to this argument. I know that Evolution can explain, by evolution, slowly changes occuring by other method than evolution.

It is a no end debate. An Evolutionnary believer can explain everything. Even if a new theory appears and shut down theory of Evolution and proove that theory of Evolution is false, Theory of Evolution can explain us why and how.

But even that bullshits can be contradicted for a non believer in Evolution. Slowly changes cannot explain everything. Complex and discontinous system appeared and cannot be explained by slowly changes only. How apperead the first cell ? how birds fly ? How insect fly ? how reproduction by sexuality appeared ?
Many are those who can write books to show that evolutionnay mechanisms cannot succeed to create all life we see.
As all "believers", an Evolutionnary believer cannot listen to these arguments.

Tautology is a very powerfull tool. As Heidegger said, Tautolgy throw his believer in an infinite of thinking. No way to get it back.
Tautology seems obvious. Even childs can understand it. It is why Evolution is a science that Evolutionnary believers want to teach to childs.
I can explain Evolution mechanisms in 5 minutes to every stupid in this earth.
It is the only "science" with wich i can do that.

"Evolution A Theory in Crisis" is a book written almost 30 years ago by a proponent of the Christian Intelligent Design movement, who did not even understand the theory and has more mistakes than a Swiss cheese has holes.
Read 2 critiques yourself so that you don't think it is me
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html
http//www.2think.org/eatic.shtml

I have read that book and don't need what critiques says.
Dear StopS, you are incorrigible. Always lookings on what other said on a book.
I have read the book and i garanty you that the writer criticized there christian beliefs. He never emitted the hypothesys of a "super intelligence".
He discussed only facts and you cannot reject his arguments by sayings he never said.

Peace

[StopS]

Salaam StopS.
No problem. When you see sun movement, you can believe that it turn around earth. In fact, it is just illusion and apperance and it is due to own rotation of earth.

Exactly, which is why humans followed the Sumerian creation myth for 100s and 1000s of years.

Many believe that gravity is something that exists. gravity is also a belief and relativy says that object go straight in a space distorted.
"Gravitational attraction" is a belief. It seems like if objects are attracted but it is probably only space distortion.
The graviton is believed to be the particle that transmits gravity. it is only in models and there is no proove of existance.
So, until now, we see facts (appearant attraction) and whe don't now how, by wich mean and why.

There seems to be a bit of a mix between cosmology and particle physics here. Gravity on Earth even has mathematically accurate values, so this is definitely not a belief.
It is different when talking immense or zero masses. That's when we still fail.

Sorry but you have many beliefs and that is a fact. It is just that you call them facts.

That could well be - but there's no reason to call that a religion.

For example you believe in your brain. And when your brain tells you that a belief is fact, you believe him. When my brain tells you that your facts are beliefs you dont believe my brain. So at least, you believe that your brain is smarter than mine.
You observe in all human mankind how much stupidity a brain can produce and you still believe in your brain.
Even your brain deceived you many times and made many errors and you still believe in your brain when it tells you that your beliefs are facts.
You know that your brain will probably completely derail when you will be very old and you still believe him.
At least, it seems to me that worship your brain. But it is a false God. Don't put faith in him. Brain is a deceiver.

I have no idea where you get this from, but I strongly disagree. The sheer fact that I am here discussing religious concepts shows that I am questioning my own impressions and concepts. I am acutely aware of the failings of the brain.

Evolution is what we call a tautology.
Errors produce multiples variants and natural selection select the better.
What is the better ? the better is what succeed in reproduction. Sometimes it is the sronger, sometimes the smaller, sometimes the white, sometimes the black, and even, for bees for example, who reproduce is who helps other with similar genes to reproduce...
Evolution can explian also why some species decided to no more use Evolution (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil). Ther became too succesfull.

But Evolution explain the realisation only by the realisation itself. No prediction can be done.
Realisation could have been other that we observe but Evolution knows always why and how only after the realisation. Always the same song.
Is that a science ?

Some things you say are right, others wrong. One thing which immediately made me cringe was the usage of the word "better". I could see where this was going and it did.
Species don't decide anything. It is nature and the adaptation which generates different selections or maintains the old ones.
What do you mean by "No prediction can be done"?? Of course there are predictions which can be made and they always turn up to be true.
Example when palaeontologists dug up a skeleton near a beach of a vertebrate with short legs and webbing, they predicted it should have adapted to life under water and should thus have adapted the ears to underwater sounds. And that's exactly what biologists later found. Some scientists are getting so good at this that they are able to exchange DNA between cells.

When Darwin "discovered" the so called Science of Evolution, he didn't knew nothing about something called gene or genetics. He discovered absolutely nothing else than words who predict only what happened. Is that a science ?

Oh come on, I explained this! Darwin did NOT discover any science. He brought together different types of information and formulated a theory, a description. Nothing more or less.
The rest is up to the scientific method which confirmed his theory again and again. Just like the first Daimler car was different from today's Daimler, the description changes and is updated continuously.

Australopithecus was selected because they were, in a way, "advanced". They disappeared because they were "less advanced". However, we have to believe thet they were more advanced than monkeys and many kinds of animals that have not disappeared. Same arguments can explains a fact and his opposite.
Is that science ?

Sorry but you are misunderstanding what evolution does and how.

Theory of Evolution is just words and hadiths. Therory of Evolution is a religion and Darwin is its prophet. Theory of Evolution extract his truth from non reproductible errors and sayings of people who was never there when events happened. Evolution is just tales on facts.

It looks as though you don't want to understand and simply want to throw mud at anything which is uncomfortable to you. None of what you say is correct or factual. It is emotional fabrication.

Look at yourself StopS. You were a baby and grow up until the adult size. Modifications in your external apperance are by slowly changes you can see in a mirror. They are so tiny that you cannot see the difference between a day and the day after. And you know that the mecanism is not Evolution, errors and chance. You know that all that is written in your DNA and what seems slowly changes are just a program being applied. You know even how is the programmed end.
Don't waste your time to respond to this argument. I know that Evolution can explain, by evolution, slowly changes occuring by other method than evolution.

Evolution has nothing to do with errors and chance. Man, why don't you learn before making such ridiculous comments?

I think we should leave this here. It is not for me to teach you biology and you will not go to a science forum to learn what evolution does, how it works and what the mechanisms are.
To top it off, evolution nether proves nor disproves any god, so it is actually futile material in this context and on this thread.
If anyone would have any proof, it will not be brought forward by trying to shoot holes into evolution and throwing emotional tantrums.

[noshirk]

Salaam StopS

I think we should leave this here

OK

Salaam All

Example when palaeontologists dug up a skeleton near a beach of a vertebrate with short legs and webbing, they predicted it should have adapted to life under water and should thus have adapted the ears to underwater sounds. And that's exactly what biologists later found. Some scientists are getting so good at this that they are able to exchange DNA between cells.

dont know exactly what StopS are speaking of but it is not important. That prediction is for something that already happened. if what they search was not found, they would have say "it is a missing link" and if the opposite was found they would have said "we made a mistake but Evolution is true".

However, not believing in Evolution Theory is not not believing in intermediate form of life. These are facts. Intermediate forms of life exists and are facts.
Not believeing in Evolution theory is just not believing in mechanisms based on errors/chance/selection.

It is not for me to teach you biology and you will not go to a science forum to learn what evolution does, how it works and what the mechanisms are

My discussion with my brother in science , StopS, is typical of how two system of different beliefs that cannot conciliate on same facts.
It is important to note similarites between response of brother in Science, StopS, with response of Hadithers and believers in hersays of Scholars in Islam.

Both says
There is Scientits who had proven what we are saying is truth.
Since you are not agree with great scientits then you are wrong.
Truth is in our possession. If you reject it then what you have understood it wrong.
Truth is in our possession. if you reject it then you have to learn more from our scientists.

But what a hadihist will never admit, is that quranists can knows better Quran than him.
StopS don't know who i am; don't know how much books of science i have read, but he knows that i have to learn more until i share his beliefs.

Now, let suppose that the challenge of life, from quranic point of view, is to make people believe in God whith montruous and enormous indirect proofs of God existence without never seeing GOD. Let suppose that God wants to have, in Jenna, only Malaika with total free will who are sure that he is the God and never contest him. Let suppose that God don't want to have to proove permanantly, to free will owners, in Jenna, that he is the God.
The question will be
How God should do ?

My opinion is that God teach us in quran that we have not to enter in an infinite debate with who is not able to accept that he exists and that he is the only God.
His teaching, in my opinion, is adressed only to those who can accept that, with no infinite debate, and want to learn more.
It is why, from my point of view, the two systems of words of God (quran an science) have not to mix.
How can we learn from our Rabb when in the classroom, there is people who permanently contest the teacher (Rabb) ?
Peace

[noshirk]

Salaam
I would like to continue developping last point. I remind that it is only my own opinion.

What i deduced from quran is that God is the great teacher (Rabb). The only Rabb.
232 They (malaika) said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."

Whatever be the teachings, it can be rejected simply by rejecting the teacher whatever be his knowledge.
Ibliss did something like that. "Seeing" the God/teacher doesn't change anything to the problem of accepting the teacher and his teachings.
Ibliss knew even that God created him from fire.

People can accept the teacher and not his teachnings (shirk and mix of teachings with other teachnings) , accept teachings and not the teacher (Scientists who study natural laws without knowing if there is or not a teacher) or reject both.

Teachings and teacher are differents problems.
Facts and beliefs are different problems.
Science and religion are different problems.

Whatever be the facts, even by "seeing" God himself, God can be rejected by defectuous minds.
Direct proof of God doesn't change anything of the problem concerning authority of the teacher, when there is free will, as ibliss had.

Believing in teacher capacity, without seeing him, simply by his teachings, is the best way to detect non defectuous minds when they are given free will.
Defectuous minds cannot be convinced by the teacher, whatever be his teachings.
Defectuous minds is a quite inevitable consequence of total free will.
Defectuous minds has not to be in Jenna of God. Free will should have limits, that is nevet contest his creator (similar to science fiction problem of rebellion of robots against humans.).

3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."

Something happened before our life. I had no knowledge of what it is other that there were a quarel in the high up command ( Exalted Chiefs on high ??? ?)

7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs (??? ), their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of that

3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man (??? )accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

8928 Return (??? ) to your Lord happy and content.

4011 They will say Our Lord, You have made us die twice (??? ), and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this state.

Peace

[StopS]

It is important to note similarites between response of brother in Science, StopS, with response of Hadithers and believers in hersays of Scholars in Islam.

Both says
There is Scientits who had proven what we are saying is truth.
Since you are not agree with great scientits then you are wrong.
Truth is in our possession. If you reject it then what you have understood it wrong.
Truth is in our possession. if you reject it then you have to learn more from our scientists.

You are right, the claims sound similar. But for a scientist, they are fundamentally wrong.
There is no proof that anything is the truth unless it's a law. We could - theoretically - find something which will overturn a theory. So scientists do not have the audacity and haughty attitude you seem to think.
ANYONE can disagree with any scientist. There is no authority figure. If you have a reason to disagree, do so and you will be famous and rich if you do successfully.
The other sentences are equally wrong and complete nonsense when applied to science.

But what a hadihist will never admit, is that quranists can knows better Quran than him.
StopS don't know who i am; don't know how much books of science i have read, but he knows that i have to learn more until i share his beliefs.

If I tell you the Koran is written in Icelandic, you don't need to know me and don't need to know what I have read or what my background is, you know for sure that I have no idea what I am talking about regarding the Koran.

It is NOT a matter of agreeing, it is a matter of establishing a common base to enable a discussion. That's why I enquire on the Koran and the people following it here and not on a science forum.

I don't understand the rest, so I will not comment on it.

A human can have a belief and look for evidence that the belief is justified. If that evidence is found, a human can then look for proof to see if this belief can be converted to knowledge.

If we look at gravity, we have proof that a feather and a hammer will hit the ground at the same time if I let go of them at the same time and eliminate the resistance of the atmosphere.
Will this be true tomorrow? Yes. Will this be true in the vicinity of a black hole? We don't know. This why science is very specific about what it defines and concludes. My point is that even when looking at empirical data it is incredibly difficult to find proof for anything, so I don't expect much in the sense of this thread.

But I look forward to reading about people's opinions....

[noshirk]

You are right, the claims sound similar. But for a scientist, they are fundamentally wrong.
.....

If I tell you the Koran is written in Icelandic, you don't need to know me and don't need to know what I have read or what my background is, you know for sure that I have no idea what I am talking about regarding the Koran.

Salaam StopS

Dear StopS, you are a funny guy. Really.
You are repeating "my beliefs are facts, my beliefs are facts"
You are linking "Lack on beliefs about Evolution Theory" to Lack of knowledge and lack of understanding.

I wished we could compete in an exam about "Theory of Evolution" to know who, you or me, have the better understanding and knowledge about what that "science" says.
However, i know that it will change nothing for you. You already rejected Micheal Denton while you know that he have better understanding and knowledge about that theory.

Hope, dear StoS, that you will admit, one day, that many of what you call facts are just beliefs.
Truth is, for me, the true set of facts with the true set of beliefs. That 's why science and religion is, for me, two differents sciences.
Hope, dear StopS, that you will find the true set of Beliefs.

Peace

[StopS]

Salaam StopS

Dear StopS, you are a funny guy. Really.
You are repeating "my beliefs are facts, my beliefs are facts"
You are linking "Lack on beliefs about Evolution Theory" to Lack of knowledge and lack of understanding.

I wished we could compete in an exam about "Theory of Evolution" to know who, you or me, have the better understanding and knowledge about what that "science" says.
However, i know that it will change nothing for you. You already rejected Micheal Denton while you know that he have better understanding and knowledge about that theory.

Hope, dear StoS, that you will admit, one day, that many of what you call facts are just beliefs.
Truth is, for me, the true set of facts with the true set of beliefs. That 's why science and religion is, for me, two differents sciences.
Hope, dear StopS, that you will find the true set of Beliefs.

Peace

You are again confirming that religion and science simply don't mix. You can't get away from your belief.
Micheal Denton is a creationist clown. Are you taking what he says seriously? PLEASE!
AGAIN!!! Don't bring up science and the theory of evolution. Just go to a forum which discusses this topic and bring your opinion to the experts. Why me? I'm an atheist and not an evolutionary biologist or a gravitationalist.

[noshirk]

Salaam All

Sorry, but i am going to philosophize a little more.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God , and those who are well founded in knowledge say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.

This is, for me, one of the most important verses about quran itself.
let's separate ideas of the verse that are interesting for our purpose.
1-great part of quran is clear and can be understood.
2- there is a part wich is confuse.
3-Only God have the good understanding of what is confuse
4- Well founded in knowledge accepts quaran as a whole, without understanding everything.

Science seems to be the world of facts.
In world of spirit, of free mind, apart God existence, 3-7 seems to indicate that no human will never understand everything in God words. If such a man or women existed, idea 3 will be contradicted.

Based on 3-7, i can also argue that Muhammad did'nt understand every thing in quran. He transmitted it as it is with a good understanding of a great part of it.

What i want to say is that the true set of beliefs relative to quran will probably never be discovered and that, perhaps, two opposites opinions would be accepted as true by God.
The more i think and the more i am convinced that Quran is written in a way to allow multiple levels of understanding. The straith path is more important than the target.

That doesn't contradicts completeness of Words of God (quran). Completeness doesn't mean handle everything. Completeness means coherent and self explanatory.

18109 Say "If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;" even if We were to bring another like it as an extension.

The following verse is also interesting.

230 And your Lord said to the angels "I am placing a successor on the earth." They said "Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You?" He said "I know what you do not know."

we see there that Malaika are allowed to express an opinion that seems in contradiction with God sayings. However

231 And He taught Adam the names of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said "Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."

In that discussion, God didn't used authority argument like "shut up the malaika". God responded to malaika by arguments.

233 He said "O Adam, inform them of their names," so when he informed them of their names, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding?"

but, order is order

234 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for Ibliss, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

Ibliss was a malaika. That means that a malaika have the possibility to think different. The sin is only when they disobey to an order from God.

Who knows ? Perhaps there will be a free-minds.org forum also in heaven ?

Peace

[StopS]

Sorry, but i am going to philosophize a little more.

Thanks for the thorough and well thought out essay. I like your approach, even if I differ with some of the contents. handshake

You say that
1-great part of quran is clear and can be understood.
2- there is a part wich is confuse.
3-Only God have the good understanding of what is confuse
4- Well founded in knowledge accepts quaran as a whole, without understanding everything.

and that is a valid approach.

My question here is how do you know and who decides what is clear and what is confusing?
Why would a god "reveal" something in an undisclosed manner only to very few people in a confusing manner, if omniscience allows to identify well before the revelation that parts are confusing?

While you are saying that we can simply accept what we understand I am a bit more sceptical and wish there were more proof, or at least evidence.

Then there are things which simply don't make any sense.

"231 And He taught Adam the names of all things"

What things? That would imply that all things already existed whenever the time frame was that Adam was created. That ignores the fact that 99% of all living species have gone extinct. That would imply that Adam was taught about "things" we still don't know about.

I love your last question! Indeed, is there WiFi in heaven?

[noshirk]

Salaam StopS

First, we have to make an agreement. I will made assumption that God exists and Quran is his book and you have to not discuss that point.
One corollary of that is that you can't bring me a non quranic affirmation or a traditionnak belief and ask me to respond to it by quran.

My question here is how do you know and who decides what is clear and what is confusing?

My response is Since you have no rabb (teacher) other than God, it is you who decide what is clear and what is confusing. Seaching for a "who will" is searching for another Rabb and it is shirk/association.
We have to accept that we will not have responses to all our questions in this life.

Why would a god "reveal" something in an undisclosed manner only to very few people in a confusing manner, if omniscience allows to identify well before the revelation that parts are confusing?

Concept of omniscience is not clear for me. However, in our life, we admit that we can have differents opinions while facts are the same. One truth and only one truth is a scientific assumption in physics, mathematics and so on. In philosophy, it is in the contrary asked to create an own truth and an own vision of facts.

In fact, to allow free thinking that don't mean freedom to make only errors, confuse part of science is necessary. Confuse parts is part where God allows us to think different while being not in a wrong way. Confusion is freedom for free-minds.
If there was only one truth and only one in everything, then Robots would be better than Minds (i wrote a post explaining that human imagination is in fact what Quran call Jinns http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0).

While you are saying that we can simply accept what we understand I am a bit more sceptical and wish there were more proof, or at least evidence.

Response here is complex because it implies understanding why God created humans. I will give you here my view.
From history of Ibliss, we know that having direct proof of God existence and power is not sufficient for convincing a free mind to obey God.
Despite all proofs, Ibliss made the sin. After him, Adam also made another sin.
Proving that he exists is not an objective for God.

3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."

The important news it that there were a big quarel. The bad news is that we were probably there, on the wrong side.
To get the forgiveness of God, we have to believe in him, in his science, and in the fact that he is the only teacher, without seeing him (Bil ghaib as in 19-61).
It is a kind of repechage.

That means that God don't need in heaven people who always ask for more and more proofs of his godness.
Obeying to words of Gods, without seeing him, seems to be the more important. Huge quantity of indirects proofs are here to convince pupils of Gods.
Why god would accept to proove, at each time, that he is god, the unique teacher, to people who ask always the same question.

Moreover, direct proof means end of game as this verse shows
68 And they said "If only an angel were sent down to him?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would be settled, then they would no longer be respited.

Then there are things which simply don't make any sense.

"231 And He taught Adam the names of all things"

What things? That would imply that all things already existed whenever the time frame was that Adam was created. That ignores the fact that 99% of all living species have gone extinct. That would imply that Adam was taught about "things" we still don't know about.

What's Things. That is confuse and for me, it is not a problem.
The most important is that God made a demonstration and that malaika found it convincing. There is a funny interpretration that says that God demonstrate to malaika that the bilological entity of Adam was able to learn and that it will not be an handicap for our spirit. So, in judgement day, Spirit will not be able to say i would have believed if the body in wich i lived hadn't technical problems.

I Know, StopS, that my response is not convincing for you. I know also that it will not even be convincing for quran believers. However, it is convincing for me and i am happy of that.
Really, StopS, Quran is a special book. The assumption that God exists and that Quran is (or at least perhaps) his book is a necessary condition to understand it. Non believers can understand nothing. Unbelievers can always find verses they can misunderstood as they want to proove to themselves that quran is not a divine book.

The first verse after Fatiha explain for who quran is
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
I think it is a waste of time for an unbeliever to read quran. Quran, as a whole, is a proof, and no verse is individually a proof. Take it as whole or don't take it.
You cannot understand the teachings as long as you contest the teacher or the book he gave you.
That's my opinion.

Peace