Completeness of Words of God and proofs of proofs of proofs ....
-
Sure. And it's long and detailed, so this means something to you.
I hear this a lot. And this is what I wanted to explain to people earlier. No, it is not a matter of opinion, whether on not something is a fact.
"The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory."That is a problem. No, the process you describe does not exist. There is no "one state to another". If that would exist it would show our understanding of evolution is wrong.
Biological Evolution happens in nature. Natural and organic evolution has happened for 3.8 billion years on this planet. What Darwin did is use the information supplied by generations of scientists and brought it together to explain evolution. So we need to understand something very important. Our, the scientists, explanation of evolution is called a theory. It is based on facts. It is based on reproducible and falsifiable data as well as experiments. What the word theory means is that this is based on facts and several people have managed to verify the results and even though 1000s of scientists have tried to falsify or find errors in the theory, it has shown to be robust and elegant at the same time. So if anyone has doubts as to whether the theory - the human explanation - of evolution is wrong, faulty, erroneous or flawed can immediately write this down, show the evidence and the theory will be replaced. This person would be the hero of the scientific world, which is why several people have tried this and have failed, as there has never been any explanation which made any sense other than what Darwin started and what has been modified and updated for the last 150 years.
There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief.
The 2nd thing is that evolution does not address or cover or mention in any way the origin of life. So it does not contradict the Koran. We had a Muslim Imam on the Jinn&Tonic show 2 weeks ago who explained the Islamic processes as described in the Koran and he showed everyone that evolution is fully compatible with the Koran and does not present a logical or theistic boundary. The level of misinformation is astounding when it comes to this topic, so I can only advise people to learn about it and not just close their eyes.
Whoa, not so fast. A scientific theory is the highest form of a description anything gets. Just because someone has an idea, this is not a theory. In "normal" life yes. If I have a theory why Arsenal lost last weekend, it is my personal theory. In science, it is a bit different. Actually it's vastly different. What you are describing would be an idea or a hypothesis.
Are you aware that cars are not organic and not self-replicating? This kills your idea because cars have indeed "evolved" over time. Comparing a beetle with a new beetle demonstrates this nicely. But this is due to human engineering advancements, not cars developing by themselves through natural processes.
Oh no! Where do you get this from?
Please promise me you will NEVER again use the wording "only a theory" or "just a theory"? Please!
Now, if you can prove a "planner" or a "designer", the theory of evolution will be thrown out and replaced by your theory, yes.
I disagree with you when it comes to your ideas with hands and feet.
I agree with you regarding your knowledge on the Koran.But since the Koran is not scientifically accurate and not a science textbook you can correct me in spiritual matters, but not when it comes to science.
Great! I am happy that we agree on something and that we found this via respectful and peaceful communication.
No, not at all. I actually asked my questions in a different thread to this one. But it is about proof as well, so it's ok I guess. I think that the Koran provides spiritual guidance and it is up to you to decide what you think is the right way. The 6 points you mentioned above are what I see with more modern Muslims, who don't really need to have the traditional sunnah which can be changed to show what you want. You have chosen what you think is right and I respect that. I think you are taking religion the way it should be, if your personality requires a god and is taking spiritual comfort and strength from it.
That is what you believe and that is what you have chosen.
Yes and no. I can read the book for 20 years and never experience reality. I have read the book and many other texts so now I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives. How you handle evolution and how you see modern changes in greedy bankers and egoistic petrol companies but also oppressive Taliban.
Thank you for your open words.
Salaam StopS
I have very bad news for you.
From my set of beliefs, you are more Muslim than talibans.
Let me explain.To be Muslim to God, we have first to reject all Human Bullshiths about God. You seems to have successfully succeeded this step. Not the talibans.
The next step, always from my set of beliefs, is to accept/receive words of God. That seems, from my set of Beliefs, more difficult for you.For ease of speak, i will consider that you are an atheist (really, i am not sure of that).
In fact, the God you rejected is the God drawn by talibans and all talibans of all religions.
You rejected their set of Beliefs. It is a great progress. But your rejection is based on set of Beliefs of Stupids and that is not very smart.I would be very happy to respond to arguments based on Quran. That is on What God said and not on what stupids said that god said.
You cannot find truth by showing that all lies are lies. This would take an infinite time and you would nerver discover truth.Why Arsenal lost ? Very good question. But it is based also on a belief that there is a reason.
Scientits of Football can speaks hours and hours and tell you why they think that Arsenal lost.
But we can repeat the experience. Bring the same players and tell them to repeat the game. And perhaps, Arsenal will won. Whatever Theory explaining Why Arsenal have lost would then be falsified.
Scientist of Football will says that conditions of the new experience are not exactly the same as the first one. No end debate again, because they think football is science and there is a why for the lost of Arsenal. They think also that the why is in the football science.But only what we can do is to see HOW Arsenal Lost. To see that, you need to take a video and watch it. Cameraman will show you the facts, the true facts, whith no why and no theory. You are free to follow the scientist of football you take as Rabb in football and you are free to use your own mind.
Concerning Evolution, we have facts. We can both see the same play. But there is no reason that we share the same interpretation.
You want to see there success of errors , you are free.
You want to see there schema drawn by blinds mechanisms, you are free.
You want to take as falsifiable something while you know you cannot repeat the experience, you are free.
You want to reject reason of all reasons based on stupidity of all stupids, you are free.However there is no reason i would adopt your sets of beliefs, even if you call them facts. That is because you are not my rabb (teacher/educator).
There is someone who wrote book. I found the book intellectually defiyng. Beyond human capacity. This book give a theory of why for all things.
The writer of this book said "You will never see me, I wrote also universe. I this book, i will tell you why. I will tell you also why you will never find other reason than me. For that, you have to follow only me and don't follow stupids. ".You know what ? I believed him.
You said "I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives".
Really, forget that dream. It is an advice from me. Even Muslims cannot understand that.
You cannot get reason from errors like hadithists cannot extract truth from lies.You said also "There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief."
I know that from your set of your beliefs, you will never belief that i have read some of those books and that i found them not convincing. Your religion is totally false for me.
Like sharia for hadithers, you are not able to show me book and tell me " That book about evolution is All true and truth. There is no contradictions there".However i can show a scientific book that says "Evolution is full of contradictions".
http//www.amazon.fr/Evolution-Theory-Crisis-Michael-Denton/dp/091756152X
The guy is not even Muslim. He is a scientist, talking by science, to Evolutionnists believers.The funny thing is that , like many astronomists, he became an adept of "anthropocentric presumption".
that "presumtion" says that there exists a "long chain of coincidence" where the laws of nature are specifically adapted for the only type of life which can exist in the universe.
These scientists who admitted these principle based their set of Beliefs on the observation that, really, it is impossible that there is no reason behind all theses reasons and reason. They don't know who is the conceptor but they clearly find a conception.Yes and no. I can read the book for 20 years and never experience reality.
Impossible. Quran says that if you don't understand the book (or at least a major part of it) then your mind is necesserally polluted by false systems of beliefs.
I have read the book and many other texts.
Ha! ha!. That's it.
Peace
-
Salaam StopS
I have very bad news for you. From my set of beliefs, you are more Muslim than talibans. Let me explain.
Hahaha, OK, this is a first for me.
To be Muslim to God, we have first to reject all Human Bullshiths about God. You seems to have successfully succeeded this step. Not the talibans.
The next step, always from my set of beliefs, is to accept/receive words of God. That seems, from my set of Beliefs, more difficult for you.Correct.
For ease of speak, i will consider that you are an atheist (really, i am not sure of that).
In fact, the God you rejected is the God drawn by talibans and all talibans of all religions.
You rejected their set of Beliefs. It is a great progress. But your rejection is based on set of Beliefs of Stupids and that is not very smart.Correction I do not "reject" any god. For an atheist that would be absurd. I simply lack a belief. But you have my full attention so far.
I would be very happy to respond to arguments based on Quran. That is on What God said and not on what stupids said that god said.
You cannot find truth by showing that all lies are lies. This would take an infinite time and you would nerver discover truth.Isn't the number of truths equal to the untruths/lies?
Why Arsenal lost ? Very good question. But it is based also on a belief that there is a reason.
Scientits of Football can speaks hours and hours and tell you why they think that Arsenal lost.
But we can repeat the experience. Bring the same players and tell them to repeat the game. And perhaps, Arsenal will won. Whatever Theory explaining Why Arsenal have lost would then be falsified.
Scientist of Football will says that conditions of the new experience are not exactly the same as the first one. No end debate again, because they think football is science and there is a why for the lost of Arsenal. They think also that the why is in the football science.But only what we can do is to see HOW Arsenal Lost. To see that, you need to take a video and watch it. Cameraman will show you the facts, the true facts, whith no why and no theory. You are free to follow the scientist of football you take as Rabb in football and you are free to use your own mind.
You are taking a flippant remark too serious. This was just to show that a layman's understanding of a theory is completely and utterly different to that of a scientist.
Concerning Evolution, we have facts. We can both see the same play. But there is no reason that we share the same interpretation.
You want to see there success of errors , you are free.
You want to see there schema drawn by blinds mechanisms, you are free.
You want to take as falsifiable something while you know you cannot repeat the experience, you are free.
You want to reject reason of all reasons based on stupidity of all stupids, you are free.However there is no reason i would adopt your sets of beliefs, even if you call them facts. That is because you are not my rabb (teacher/educator).
I don't think I have a set of beliefs. Just do me a favour and replace "evolution" with "gravity". Would you repeat the sentences or would you hesitate?
Also, I think your understanding of "falsifiable" is not what a scientist understands. Here, it means that you can find something which does not fit our description which means it is false and requires to be reworked. So far, nobody has managed to falsify the theory of evolution. So it's not a matter of belief or view, but a fact. But again this does not have any impact on Islam or the understanding of the Koran.
There is someone who wrote book. I found the book intellectually defiyng. Beyond human capacity. This book give a theory of why for all things.
The writer of this book said "You will never see me, I wrote also universe. I this book, i will tell you why. I will tell you also why you will never find other reason than me. For that, you have to follow only me and don't follow stupids. ".You know what ? I believed him.
I don't understand this part.
You said "I want to understand Muslims in their daily lives".
Really, forget that dream. It is an advice from me. Even Muslims cannot understand that.
You cannot get reason from errors like hadithists cannot extract truth from lies.Ok, yes, to a certain extent I agree with you. But I try. And yes, I also agree with you that the incorporation of hadiths makes Islam look bad, which is why I rejected their veracity very early in my studies.
You said also "There are so many books, papers, movies, videos etc etc produced only for people like you, who don't see or want to see reality that it is amazing to still find people with your opinion and belief."
I know that from your set of your beliefs, you will never belief that i have read some of those books and that i found them not convincing. Your religion is totally false for me.
Like sharia for hadithers, you are not able to show me book and tell me " That book about evolution is All true and truth. There is no contradictions there"."Your religion is totally false for me." To not have a religion is not the name of a religion. I don't hold beliefs which are unreasonable. I believe the sun will be there tomorrow. But very little else. Why should a science textbook on evolutionary biolgy contain contradictions. I don't understand that claim. Can you show me an example?
However i can show a scientific book that says "Evolution is full of contradictions".
http//www.amazon.fr/Evolution-Theory-Crisis-Michael-Denton/dp/091756152X
The guy is not even Muslim. He is a scientist, talking by science, to Evolutionnists believers."Evolution A Theory in Crisis" is a book written almost 30 years ago by a proponent of the Christian Intelligent Design movement, who did not even understand the theory and has more mistakes than a Swiss cheese has holes.
Read 2 critiques yourself so that you don't think it is me
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html
http//www.2think.org/eatic.shtmlThe funny thing is that , like many astronomists, he became an adept of "anthropocentric presumption".
that "presumtion" says that there exists a "long chain of coincidence" where the laws of nature are specifically adapted for the only type of life which can exist in the universe.
These scientists who admitted these principle based their set of Beliefs on the observation that, really, it is impossible that there is no reason behind all theses reasons and reason. They don't know who is the conceptor but they clearly find a conception.
Impossible. Quran says that if you don't understand the book (or at least a major part of it) then your mind is necesserally polluted by false systems of beliefs.
Ha! ha!. That's it.Peace
Do you REALLY have a rational reason to think that evolution is not happening?
Do you REALLY think that the 1000s of scientists who work with and in evolutionary biology are just there for show and are all wrong?
I don't think that religion and science get along and we should stop mixing them. It only confuses people. -
Salaam StopS.
I don't think I have a set of beliefs. Just do me a favour and replace "evolution" with "gravity". Would you repeat the sentences or would you hesitate?
No problem. When you see sun movement, you can believe that it turn around earth. In fact, it is just illusion and apperance and it is due to own rotation of earth.
Many believe that gravity is something that exists. gravity is also a belief and relativy says that object go straight in a space distorted.
"Gravitational attraction" is a belief. It seems like if objects are attracted but it is probably only space distortion.
The graviton is believed to be the particle that transmits gravity. it is only in models and there is no proove of existance.
So, until now, we see facts (appearant attraction) and whe don't now how, by wich mean and why.I don't understand this part.
I was speaking of God and Quran. I am not surprised you did'nt see them
"Your religion is totally false for me." To not have a religion is not the name of a religion. I don't hold beliefs which are unreasonable. I believe the sun will be there tomorrow. But very little else. Why should a science textbook on evolutionary biolgy contain contradictions. I don't understand that claim. Can you show me an example?
+
I simply lack a belief
+
I don't think I have a set of beliefs.Sorry but you have many beliefs and that is a fact. It is just that you call them facts.
For example you believe in your brain. And when your brain tells you that a belief is fact, you believe him. When my brain tells you that your facts are beliefs you dont believe my brain. So at least, you believe that your brain is smarter than mine.
You observe in all human mankind how much stupidity a brain can produce and you still believe in your brain.
Even your brain deceived you many times and made many errors and you still believe in your brain when it tells you that your beliefs are facts.
You know that your brain will probably completely derail when you will be very old and you still believe him.
At least, it seems to me that worship your brain. But it is a false God. Don't put faith in him. Brain is a deceiver.Evolution is what we call a tautology.
Errors produce multiples variants and natural selection select the better.
What is the better ? the better is what succeed in reproduction. Sometimes it is the sronger, sometimes the smaller, sometimes the white, sometimes the black, and even, for bees for example, who reproduce is who helps other with similar genes to reproduce...
Evolution can explian also why some species decided to no more use Evolution (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil). Ther became too succesfull.But Evolution explain the realisation only by the realisation itself. No prediction can be done.
Realisation could have been other that we observe but Evolution knows always why and how only after the realisation. Always the same song.
Is that a science ?When Darwin "discovered" the so called Science of Evolution, he didn't knew nothing about something called gene or genetics. He discovered absolutely nothing else than words who predict only what happened. Is that a science ?
Australopithecus was selected because they were, in a way, "advanced". They disappeared because they were "less advanced". However, we have to believe thet they were more advanced than monkeys and many kinds of animals that have not disappeared. Same arguments can explains a fact and his opposite.
Is that science ?Theory of Evolution is just words and hadiths. Therory of Evolution is a religion and Darwin is its prophet. Theory of Evolution extract his truth from non reproductible errors and sayings of people who was never there when events happened. Evolution is just tales on facts.
Look at yourself StopS. You were a baby and grow up until the adult size. Modifications in your external apperance are by slowly changes you can see in a mirror. They are so tiny that you cannot see the difference between a day and the day after. And you know that the mecanism is not Evolution, errors and chance. You know that all that is written in your DNA and what seems slowly changes are just a program being applied. You know even how is the programmed end.
Don't waste your time to respond to this argument. I know that Evolution can explain, by evolution, slowly changes occuring by other method than evolution.It is a no end debate. An Evolutionnary believer can explain everything. Even if a new theory appears and shut down theory of Evolution and proove that theory of Evolution is false, Theory of Evolution can explain us why and how.
But even that bullshits can be contradicted for a non believer in Evolution. Slowly changes cannot explain everything. Complex and discontinous system appeared and cannot be explained by slowly changes only. How apperead the first cell ? how birds fly ? How insect fly ? how reproduction by sexuality appeared ?
Many are those who can write books to show that evolutionnay mechanisms cannot succeed to create all life we see.
As all "believers", an Evolutionnary believer cannot listen to these arguments.Tautology is a very powerfull tool. As Heidegger said, Tautolgy throw his believer in an infinite of thinking. No way to get it back.
Tautology seems obvious. Even childs can understand it. It is why Evolution is a science that Evolutionnary believers want to teach to childs.
I can explain Evolution mechanisms in 5 minutes to every stupid in this earth.
It is the only "science" with wich i can do that."Evolution A Theory in Crisis" is a book written almost 30 years ago by a proponent of the Christian Intelligent Design movement, who did not even understand the theory and has more mistakes than a Swiss cheese has holes.
Read 2 critiques yourself so that you don't think it is me
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html
http//www.2think.org/eatic.shtmlI have read that book and don't need what critiques says.
Dear StopS, you are incorrigible. Always lookings on what other said on a book.
I have read the book and i garanty you that the writer criticized there christian beliefs. He never emitted the hypothesys of a "super intelligence".
He discussed only facts and you cannot reject his arguments by sayings he never said.Peace
-
Salaam StopS.
No problem. When you see sun movement, you can believe that it turn around earth. In fact, it is just illusion and apperance and it is due to own rotation of earth.Exactly, which is why humans followed the Sumerian creation myth for 100s and 1000s of years.
Many believe that gravity is something that exists. gravity is also a belief and relativy says that object go straight in a space distorted.
"Gravitational attraction" is a belief. It seems like if objects are attracted but it is probably only space distortion.
The graviton is believed to be the particle that transmits gravity. it is only in models and there is no proove of existance.
So, until now, we see facts (appearant attraction) and whe don't now how, by wich mean and why.There seems to be a bit of a mix between cosmology and particle physics here. Gravity on Earth even has mathematically accurate values, so this is definitely not a belief.
It is different when talking immense or zero masses. That's when we still fail.Sorry but you have many beliefs and that is a fact. It is just that you call them facts.
That could well be - but there's no reason to call that a religion.
For example you believe in your brain. And when your brain tells you that a belief is fact, you believe him. When my brain tells you that your facts are beliefs you dont believe my brain. So at least, you believe that your brain is smarter than mine.
You observe in all human mankind how much stupidity a brain can produce and you still believe in your brain.
Even your brain deceived you many times and made many errors and you still believe in your brain when it tells you that your beliefs are facts.
You know that your brain will probably completely derail when you will be very old and you still believe him.
At least, it seems to me that worship your brain. But it is a false God. Don't put faith in him. Brain is a deceiver.I have no idea where you get this from, but I strongly disagree. The sheer fact that I am here discussing religious concepts shows that I am questioning my own impressions and concepts. I am acutely aware of the failings of the brain.
Evolution is what we call a tautology.
Errors produce multiples variants and natural selection select the better.
What is the better ? the better is what succeed in reproduction. Sometimes it is the sronger, sometimes the smaller, sometimes the white, sometimes the black, and even, for bees for example, who reproduce is who helps other with similar genes to reproduce...
Evolution can explian also why some species decided to no more use Evolution (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil). Ther became too succesfull.But Evolution explain the realisation only by the realisation itself. No prediction can be done.
Realisation could have been other that we observe but Evolution knows always why and how only after the realisation. Always the same song.
Is that a science ?Some things you say are right, others wrong. One thing which immediately made me cringe was the usage of the word "better". I could see where this was going and it did.
Species don't decide anything. It is nature and the adaptation which generates different selections or maintains the old ones.
What do you mean by "No prediction can be done"?? Of course there are predictions which can be made and they always turn up to be true.
Example when palaeontologists dug up a skeleton near a beach of a vertebrate with short legs and webbing, they predicted it should have adapted to life under water and should thus have adapted the ears to underwater sounds. And that's exactly what biologists later found. Some scientists are getting so good at this that they are able to exchange DNA between cells.When Darwin "discovered" the so called Science of Evolution, he didn't knew nothing about something called gene or genetics. He discovered absolutely nothing else than words who predict only what happened. Is that a science ?
Oh come on, I explained this! Darwin did NOT discover any science. He brought together different types of information and formulated a theory, a description. Nothing more or less.
The rest is up to the scientific method which confirmed his theory again and again. Just like the first Daimler car was different from today's Daimler, the description changes and is updated continuously.Australopithecus was selected because they were, in a way, "advanced". They disappeared because they were "less advanced". However, we have to believe thet they were more advanced than monkeys and many kinds of animals that have not disappeared. Same arguments can explains a fact and his opposite.
Is that science ?Sorry but you are misunderstanding what evolution does and how.
Theory of Evolution is just words and hadiths. Therory of Evolution is a religion and Darwin is its prophet. Theory of Evolution extract his truth from non reproductible errors and sayings of people who was never there when events happened. Evolution is just tales on facts.
It looks as though you don't want to understand and simply want to throw mud at anything which is uncomfortable to you. None of what you say is correct or factual. It is emotional fabrication.
Look at yourself StopS. You were a baby and grow up until the adult size. Modifications in your external apperance are by slowly changes you can see in a mirror. They are so tiny that you cannot see the difference between a day and the day after. And you know that the mecanism is not Evolution, errors and chance. You know that all that is written in your DNA and what seems slowly changes are just a program being applied. You know even how is the programmed end.
Don't waste your time to respond to this argument. I know that Evolution can explain, by evolution, slowly changes occuring by other method than evolution.Evolution has nothing to do with errors and chance. Man, why don't you learn before making such ridiculous comments?
I think we should leave this here. It is not for me to teach you biology and you will not go to a science forum to learn what evolution does, how it works and what the mechanisms are.
To top it off, evolution nether proves nor disproves any god, so it is actually futile material in this context and on this thread.
If anyone would have any proof, it will not be brought forward by trying to shoot holes into evolution and throwing emotional tantrums. -
Salaam StopS
I think we should leave this here
OK
Salaam All
Example when palaeontologists dug up a skeleton near a beach of a vertebrate with short legs and webbing, they predicted it should have adapted to life under water and should thus have adapted the ears to underwater sounds. And that's exactly what biologists later found. Some scientists are getting so good at this that they are able to exchange DNA between cells.
dont know exactly what StopS are speaking of but it is not important. That prediction is for something that already happened. if what they search was not found, they would have say "it is a missing link" and if the opposite was found they would have said "we made a mistake but Evolution is true".
However, not believing in Evolution Theory is not not believing in intermediate form of life. These are facts. Intermediate forms of life exists and are facts.
Not believeing in Evolution theory is just not believing in mechanisms based on errors/chance/selection.It is not for me to teach you biology and you will not go to a science forum to learn what evolution does, how it works and what the mechanisms are
My discussion with my brother in science , StopS, is typical of how two system of different beliefs that cannot conciliate on same facts.
It is important to note similarites between response of brother in Science, StopS, with response of Hadithers and believers in hersays of Scholars in Islam.Both says
There is Scientits who had proven what we are saying is truth.
Since you are not agree with great scientits then you are wrong.
Truth is in our possession. If you reject it then what you have understood it wrong.
Truth is in our possession. if you reject it then you have to learn more from our scientists.But what a hadihist will never admit, is that quranists can knows better Quran than him.
StopS don't know who i am; don't know how much books of science i have read, but he knows that i have to learn more until i share his beliefs.Now, let suppose that the challenge of life, from quranic point of view, is to make people believe in God whith montruous and enormous indirect proofs of God existence without never seeing GOD. Let suppose that God wants to have, in Jenna, only Malaika with total free will who are sure that he is the God and never contest him. Let suppose that God don't want to have to proove permanantly, to free will owners, in Jenna, that he is the God.
The question will be
How God should do ?My opinion is that God teach us in quran that we have not to enter in an infinite debate with who is not able to accept that he exists and that he is the only God.
His teaching, in my opinion, is adressed only to those who can accept that, with no infinite debate, and want to learn more.
It is why, from my point of view, the two systems of words of God (quran an science) have not to mix.
How can we learn from our Rabb when in the classroom, there is people who permanently contest the teacher (Rabb) ?
Peace -
Salaam
I would like to continue developping last point. I remind that it is only my own opinion.What i deduced from quran is that God is the great teacher (Rabb). The only Rabb.
232 They (malaika) said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."Whatever be the teachings, it can be rejected simply by rejecting the teacher whatever be his knowledge.
Ibliss did something like that. "Seeing" the God/teacher doesn't change anything to the problem of accepting the teacher and his teachings.
Ibliss knew even that God created him from fire.People can accept the teacher and not his teachnings (shirk and mix of teachings with other teachnings) , accept teachings and not the teacher (Scientists who study natural laws without knowing if there is or not a teacher) or reject both.
Teachings and teacher are differents problems.
Facts and beliefs are different problems.
Science and religion are different problems.Whatever be the facts, even by "seeing" God himself, God can be rejected by defectuous minds.
Direct proof of God doesn't change anything of the problem concerning authority of the teacher, when there is free will, as ibliss had.Believing in teacher capacity, without seeing him, simply by his teachings, is the best way to detect non defectuous minds when they are given free will.
Defectuous minds cannot be convinced by the teacher, whatever be his teachings.
Defectuous minds is a quite inevitable consequence of total free will.
Defectuous minds has not to be in Jenna of God. Free will should have limits, that is nevet contest his creator (similar to science fiction problem of rebellion of robots against humans.).3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."Something happened before our life. I had no knowledge of what it is other that there were a quarel in the high up command ( Exalted Chiefs on high ??? ?)
7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs (??? ), their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of that
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man (??? )accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
8928 Return (??? ) to your Lord happy and content.
4011 They will say Our Lord, You have made us die twice (??? ), and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this state.
Peace
-
It is important to note similarites between response of brother in Science, StopS, with response of Hadithers and believers in hersays of Scholars in Islam.
Both says
There is Scientits who had proven what we are saying is truth.
Since you are not agree with great scientits then you are wrong.
Truth is in our possession. If you reject it then what you have understood it wrong.
Truth is in our possession. if you reject it then you have to learn more from our scientists.You are right, the claims sound similar. But for a scientist, they are fundamentally wrong.
There is no proof that anything is the truth unless it's a law. We could - theoretically - find something which will overturn a theory. So scientists do not have the audacity and haughty attitude you seem to think.
ANYONE can disagree with any scientist. There is no authority figure. If you have a reason to disagree, do so and you will be famous and rich if you do successfully.
The other sentences are equally wrong and complete nonsense when applied to science.But what a hadihist will never admit, is that quranists can knows better Quran than him.
StopS don't know who i am; don't know how much books of science i have read, but he knows that i have to learn more until i share his beliefs.If I tell you the Koran is written in Icelandic, you don't need to know me and don't need to know what I have read or what my background is, you know for sure that I have no idea what I am talking about regarding the Koran.
It is NOT a matter of agreeing, it is a matter of establishing a common base to enable a discussion. That's why I enquire on the Koran and the people following it here and not on a science forum.
I don't understand the rest, so I will not comment on it.
A human can have a belief and look for evidence that the belief is justified. If that evidence is found, a human can then look for proof to see if this belief can be converted to knowledge.
If we look at gravity, we have proof that a feather and a hammer will hit the ground at the same time if I let go of them at the same time and eliminate the resistance of the atmosphere.
Will this be true tomorrow? Yes. Will this be true in the vicinity of a black hole? We don't know. This why science is very specific about what it defines and concludes. My point is that even when looking at empirical data it is incredibly difficult to find proof for anything, so I don't expect much in the sense of this thread.But I look forward to reading about people's opinions....
-
You are right, the claims sound similar. But for a scientist, they are fundamentally wrong.
.....If I tell you the Koran is written in Icelandic, you don't need to know me and don't need to know what I have read or what my background is, you know for sure that I have no idea what I am talking about regarding the Koran.
Salaam StopS
Dear StopS, you are a funny guy. Really.
You are repeating "my beliefs are facts, my beliefs are facts"
You are linking "Lack on beliefs about Evolution Theory" to Lack of knowledge and lack of understanding.I wished we could compete in an exam about "Theory of Evolution" to know who, you or me, have the better understanding and knowledge about what that "science" says.
However, i know that it will change nothing for you. You already rejected Micheal Denton while you know that he have better understanding and knowledge about that theory.Hope, dear StoS, that you will admit, one day, that many of what you call facts are just beliefs.
Truth is, for me, the true set of facts with the true set of beliefs. That 's why science and religion is, for me, two differents sciences.
Hope, dear StopS, that you will find the true set of Beliefs.Peace
-
Salaam StopS
Dear StopS, you are a funny guy. Really.
You are repeating "my beliefs are facts, my beliefs are facts"
You are linking "Lack on beliefs about Evolution Theory" to Lack of knowledge and lack of understanding.I wished we could compete in an exam about "Theory of Evolution" to know who, you or me, have the better understanding and knowledge about what that "science" says.
However, i know that it will change nothing for you. You already rejected Micheal Denton while you know that he have better understanding and knowledge about that theory.Hope, dear StoS, that you will admit, one day, that many of what you call facts are just beliefs.
Truth is, for me, the true set of facts with the true set of beliefs. That 's why science and religion is, for me, two differents sciences.
Hope, dear StopS, that you will find the true set of Beliefs.Peace
You are again confirming that religion and science simply don't mix. You can't get away from your belief.
Micheal Denton is a creationist clown. Are you taking what he says seriously? PLEASE!
AGAIN!!! Don't bring up science and the theory of evolution. Just go to a forum which discusses this topic and bring your opinion to the experts. Why me? I'm an atheist and not an evolutionary biologist or a gravitationalist. -
Salaam All
Sorry, but i am going to philosophize a little more.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God , and those who are well founded in knowledge say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
This is, for me, one of the most important verses about quran itself.
let's separate ideas of the verse that are interesting for our purpose.
1-great part of quran is clear and can be understood.
2- there is a part wich is confuse.
3-Only God have the good understanding of what is confuse
4- Well founded in knowledge accepts quaran as a whole, without understanding everything.Science seems to be the world of facts.
In world of spirit, of free mind, apart God existence, 3-7 seems to indicate that no human will never understand everything in God words. If such a man or women existed, idea 3 will be contradicted.Based on 3-7, i can also argue that Muhammad did'nt understand every thing in quran. He transmitted it as it is with a good understanding of a great part of it.
What i want to say is that the true set of beliefs relative to quran will probably never be discovered and that, perhaps, two opposites opinions would be accepted as true by God.
The more i think and the more i am convinced that Quran is written in a way to allow multiple levels of understanding. The straith path is more important than the target.That doesn't contradicts completeness of Words of God (quran). Completeness doesn't mean handle everything. Completeness means coherent and self explanatory.
18109 Say "If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;" even if We were to bring another like it as an extension.
The following verse is also interesting.
230 And your Lord said to the angels "I am placing a successor on the earth." They said "Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You?" He said "I know what you do not know."
we see there that Malaika are allowed to express an opinion that seems in contradiction with God sayings. However
231 And He taught Adam the names of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said "Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."In that discussion, God didn't used authority argument like "shut up the malaika". God responded to malaika by arguments.
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of their names," so when he informed them of their names, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding?"
but, order is order
234 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for Ibliss, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
Ibliss was a malaika. That means that a malaika have the possibility to think different. The sin is only when they disobey to an order from God.
Who knows ? Perhaps there will be a free-minds.org forum also in heaven ?
Peace
-
Sorry, but i am going to philosophize a little more.
Thanks for the thorough and well thought out essay. I like your approach, even if I differ with some of the contents. handshake
You say that
1-great part of quran is clear and can be understood.
2- there is a part wich is confuse.
3-Only God have the good understanding of what is confuse
4- Well founded in knowledge accepts quaran as a whole, without understanding everything.and that is a valid approach.
My question here is how do you know and who decides what is clear and what is confusing?
Why would a god "reveal" something in an undisclosed manner only to very few people in a confusing manner, if omniscience allows to identify well before the revelation that parts are confusing?While you are saying that we can simply accept what we understand I am a bit more sceptical and wish there were more proof, or at least evidence.
Then there are things which simply don't make any sense.
"231 And He taught Adam the names of all things"
What things? That would imply that all things already existed whenever the time frame was that Adam was created. That ignores the fact that 99% of all living species have gone extinct. That would imply that Adam was taught about "things" we still don't know about.
I love your last question! Indeed, is there WiFi in heaven?
-
Salaam StopS
First, we have to make an agreement. I will made assumption that God exists and Quran is his book and you have to not discuss that point.
One corollary of that is that you can't bring me a non quranic affirmation or a traditionnak belief and ask me to respond to it by quran.My question here is how do you know and who decides what is clear and what is confusing?
My response is Since you have no rabb (teacher) other than God, it is you who decide what is clear and what is confusing. Seaching for a "who will" is searching for another Rabb and it is shirk/association.
We have to accept that we will not have responses to all our questions in this life.Why would a god "reveal" something in an undisclosed manner only to very few people in a confusing manner, if omniscience allows to identify well before the revelation that parts are confusing?
Concept of omniscience is not clear for me. However, in our life, we admit that we can have differents opinions while facts are the same. One truth and only one truth is a scientific assumption in physics, mathematics and so on. In philosophy, it is in the contrary asked to create an own truth and an own vision of facts.
In fact, to allow free thinking that don't mean freedom to make only errors, confuse part of science is necessary. Confuse parts is part where God allows us to think different while being not in a wrong way. Confusion is freedom for free-minds.
If there was only one truth and only one in everything, then Robots would be better than Minds (i wrote a post explaining that human imagination is in fact what Quran call Jinns http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0).While you are saying that we can simply accept what we understand I am a bit more sceptical and wish there were more proof, or at least evidence.
Response here is complex because it implies understanding why God created humans. I will give you here my view.
From history of Ibliss, we know that having direct proof of God existence and power is not sufficient for convincing a free mind to obey God.
Despite all proofs, Ibliss made the sin. After him, Adam also made another sin.
Proving that he exists is not an objective for God.3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."The important news it that there were a big quarel. The bad news is that we were probably there, on the wrong side.
To get the forgiveness of God, we have to believe in him, in his science, and in the fact that he is the only teacher, without seeing him (Bil ghaib as in 19-61).
It is a kind of repechage.That means that God don't need in heaven people who always ask for more and more proofs of his godness.
Obeying to words of Gods, without seeing him, seems to be the more important. Huge quantity of indirects proofs are here to convince pupils of Gods.
Why god would accept to proove, at each time, that he is god, the unique teacher, to people who ask always the same question.Moreover, direct proof means end of game as this verse shows
68 And they said "If only an angel were sent down to him?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would be settled, then they would no longer be respited.Then there are things which simply don't make any sense.
"231 And He taught Adam the names of all things"
What things? That would imply that all things already existed whenever the time frame was that Adam was created. That ignores the fact that 99% of all living species have gone extinct. That would imply that Adam was taught about "things" we still don't know about.
What's Things. That is confuse and for me, it is not a problem.
The most important is that God made a demonstration and that malaika found it convincing. There is a funny interpretration that says that God demonstrate to malaika that the bilological entity of Adam was able to learn and that it will not be an handicap for our spirit. So, in judgement day, Spirit will not be able to say i would have believed if the body in wich i lived hadn't technical problems.I Know, StopS, that my response is not convincing for you. I know also that it will not even be convincing for quran believers. However, it is convincing for me and i am happy of that.
Really, StopS, Quran is a special book. The assumption that God exists and that Quran is (or at least perhaps) his book is a necessary condition to understand it. Non believers can understand nothing. Unbelievers can always find verses they can misunderstood as they want to proove to themselves that quran is not a divine book.The first verse after Fatiha explain for who quran is
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
I think it is a waste of time for an unbeliever to read quran. Quran, as a whole, is a proof, and no verse is individually a proof. Take it as whole or don't take it.
You cannot understand the teachings as long as you contest the teacher or the book he gave you.
That's my opinion.Peace
-
Salaam StopS
First, we have to make an agreement. I will made assumption that God exists and Quran is his book and you have to not discuss that point.
One corollary of that is that you can't bring me a non quranic affirmation or a traditionnak belief and ask me to respond to it by quran.Fair enough.
My response is Since you have no rabb (teacher) other than God, it is you who decide what is clear and what is confusing. Seaching for a "who will" is searching for another Rabb and it is shirk/association.
We have to accept that we will not have responses to all our questions in this life.So if it is YOU who decides, HOW do you decide?
Concept of omniscience is not clear for me. However, in our life, we admit that we can have differents opinions while facts are the same. One truth and only one truth is a scientific assumption in physics, mathematics and so on. In philosophy, it is in the contrary asked to create an own truth and an own vision of facts.
In fact, to allow free thinking that don't mean freedom to make only errors, confuse part of science is necessary. Confuse parts is part where God allows us to think different while being not in a wrong way. Confusion is freedom for free-minds.
If there was only one truth and only one in everything, then Robots would be better than Minds (i wrote a post explaining that human imagination is in fact what Quran call Jinns http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0).Then let's leave omniscience out of it. I would say that a fact is a fact. This is no different in philosophy. People on different sides of a house painted different colours might see a differently coloured house, but they see the same house. A viewpoint can be different, the truth cannot.
Response here is complex because it implies understanding why God created humans. I will give you here my view.
From history of Ibliss, we know that having direct proof of God existence and power is not sufficient for convincing a free mind to obey God.
Despite all proofs, Ibliss made the sin. After him, Adam also made another sin.
Proving that he exists is not an objective for God.3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."The important news it that there were a big quarel. The bad news is that we were probably there, on the wrong side.
To get the forgiveness of God, we have to believe in him, in his science, and in the fact that he is the only teacher, without seeing him (Bil ghaib as in 19-61).
It is a kind of repechage.That means that God don't need in heaven people who always ask for more and more proofs of his godness.
Obeying to words of Gods, without seeing him, seems to be the more important. Huge quantity of indirects proofs are here to convince pupils of Gods.
Why god would accept to proove, at each time, that he is god, the unique teacher, to people who ask always the same question.Moreover, direct proof means end of game as this verse shows
68 And they said "If only an angel were sent down to him?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would be settled, then they would no longer be respited.In other words there is only faith, no proof.
What's Things. That is confuse and for me, it is not a problem.
The most important is that God made a demonstration and that malaika found it convincing. There is a funny interpretration that says that God demonstrate to malaika that the bilological entity of Adam was able to learn and that it will not be an handicap for our spirit. So, in judgement day, Spirit will not be able to say i would have believed if the body in wich i lived hadn't technical problems.I Know, StopS, that my response is not convincing for you. I know also that it will not even be convincing for quran believers. However, it is convincing for me and i am happy of that.
Really, StopS, Quran is a special book. The assumption that God exists and that Quran is (or at least perhaps) his book is a necessary condition to understand it. Non believers can understand nothing. Unbelievers can always find verses they can misunderstood as they want to proove to themselves that quran is not a divine book.The first verse after Fatiha explain for who quran is
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
I think it is a waste of time for an unbeliever to read quran. Quran, as a whole, is a proof, and no verse is individually a proof. Take it as whole or don't take it.
You cannot understand the teachings as long as you contest the teacher or the book he gave you.
That's my opinion.Peace
Hahaha, you know my response yes, it is not convincing for me - but what is important is that YOU are happy with it.
-
In other words there is only faith, no proof.
Salaam StopS
Enormous quantity of indirect proofs are not no proof.You are, dear Stop, like a turbulent pupil in a classroom where other pupils try to understand their teacher and his teachnings.
You are here to contest both teacher and teachings.
When i asked you why you are here, you responded that you are here to understand pupils.You are not searching truth but just reasons to not to believe. You entered classroom for bad reasons and seems to believe that you have both knowledge and reason while you have no book between your hands. You are asking your own questions to pupils without trying to understand lessons of the teacher.
Really, dear StopS, you are a very interesting case for me.
You are facing a big universe with rich examples of life and astonishing complex mechanisms and you are trying to convince yourself that all what you see is coming by chance from the big bang microscopic hole. You are so happy with the tales of your white bloused priests that you cannot see how it is ridicoulous.7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of that.
7173 Nor can you say "It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?"
7174 It is such that We explain the revelations, perhaps they will return.
7175 And recite to them the news of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
7176 And if We had wished, We could have raised him with it, but he stuck to the earth and he followed his desire. His example is like the dog, if you scold him he pants, and if you leave him he pants; such is the example of the people who deny Our signs. So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.Peace
-
Salaam StopS
Enormous quantity of indirect proofs are not no proof.Sorry, I disagree. Several misses do not constitute a hit, no matter how close the misses are.
You are, dear Stop, like a turbulent pupil in a classroom where other pupils try to understand their teacher and his teachnings.
You are here to contest both teacher and teachings.
When i asked you why you are here, you responded that you are here to understand pupils.There are no teachers here and I see no pupils. I see human beings discussing their opinions and viewpoints. Because I am more interested in understanding I ask questions. If I have an opinion I offer it to see whether I have this opinion fro a reason or whether I need to change it.
You are not searching truth but just reasons to not to believe. You entered classroom for bad reasons and seems to believe that you have both knowledge and reason while you have no book between your hands. You are asking your own questions to pupils without trying to understand lessons of the teacher.
I do not require reasons NOT to believe but I DO require reasons to believe something. This is not a classroom. There is no authority here. Everybody here is interested in discussing their point of view and comparing it to what others think. Otherwise they would not be here.
Yes, I DO have a lot of knowledge in some topics, a little bit of knowledge in others, no knowledge in most areas and some beliefs. I am here to understand people and not to find "the truth".Really, dear StopS, you are a very interesting case for me.
You are facing a big universe with rich examples of life and astonishing complex mechanisms and you are trying to convince yourself that all what you see is coming by chance from the big bang microscopic hole. You are so happy with the tales of your white bloused priests that you cannot see how it is ridicoulous.No, I am not "facing a big universe". I am part of a Universe. I am made from the dust of stars which don't exist any more. Chance? What chance? What "white bloused priests"? It looks as though you are starting to talk about something you have little knowledge of. Don't. It does not work.
The rest does not make any sense to me in this context.