Is "free will" limited by omniscience?
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StopS, I think I need to explain the last verse I quoted 939 above, ?If you don?t take up arms in Allah?s way, you will get into big problems and Allah will replace you with other people; certainly, Allah is the standard-maker (QDR) of all things!? (939) (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things).
How does re-translating one sentence I quoted, which does not actually change the deeper meaning, have any impact on "free will"?
And how does this affect the claimed omniscience as opposed to "free will"? -
How does re-translating one sentence I quoted, which does not actually change the deeper meaning, have any impact on "free will"?
And how does this affect the claimed omniscience as opposed to "free will"?One thing you are still not trying to understand is this. Free will does not mean one is able to do anything without any consequences. For every action there is a consequence. If I tell you please do not take sugar more since it will cause you to become a diabetic patient, you may or may not obey my words based on "awareness" about the consequences and your own will power and choice, which is NOT based on lack of free will. Quran does try to create a change in a human being influencing his psychology and showing the right path. Man may choose the right path, or the wrong one ? he is completely free to make a choice (?Do whatever you will? 4140). That is why Allah will eventually hold Man responsible for his actions.
?If Allah had willed so, all men on Earth would have become convinced (of the message but He did not will it so and gave Man the freedom of choice). Then, are you (the Messenger) going to push people to conviction (against their will)?? (1099).
Had We so willed, We could have sent down unto them a message from the skies, so that their necks would bow down before it in humility.(264)
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Our perception of time is what is limited, and this limits our understanding of "free will." God doesn't force our choices. He sees our paths and the choices we've made, because He isn't confined to linear time.
Maybe...and this is speculation only...we're like particles in Feynman's "Sum of All Paths" theory, where we take all possible paths to our destination, and we have some extraordinary integral that gives a final picture of what we've done overall. As we are going along our paths, maybe we can't clearly see what we've done or are doing (i.e., not all our paths are observable); however, we can freely choose to behave in a moral and ethical way at any given moment in time.
The next is completely subjective...
I don't know about others here, but I find that as I deepen my beliefs and understandings on certain levels, this brings about the sense of understanding what I can't quite formulate clearly in my mind. Sometimes I feel as if I'm being guided toward knowing something better, and sometimes I just leave things alone. With free will, there's a sort of knowing without really knowing-knowing.
And I do believe we deceive ourselves too easily into thinking we have control or can take control over any situation. We control only our responses--how we feel, how we think, what we say, what we do to react, and so on. Our efforts count, as does our willingness to surrender and understand we are not self-sufficient; we are dependent on God. "Bad" and "good" are our earthly (and limited) perceptions of events, as we move through a life of trials and refinement of our souls.
This is easy to say but difficult to put into practice, especially when I want to have things go my way and only my way. laugh
I have a question for you, StopS...do you believe in God? And I don't mean "a god who does this or that," but do you believe in Almighty God, Creator of all that is? If you've answered this elsewhere, I apologize for the repetition.
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Hello StopS
little remark about Pork.
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
Peace
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
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I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
Salaam StopS
i know that it is difficult to admit even to muslims.
if Mister Israel hadn't forbade "things" for himself, perhaps Muslims would have been allowed to eat pork.
This remark, for a believer, can lead to a reflexion about "religious interdictions".
Funny, no ?More funny. Perhaps pork is a kind of "tag" put on real bani isreal people. Only Gospel has not the pork tag certification.
Peace
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I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
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The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"?
What is an "article of food"?
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it?
How does any of this relate to "free will"? -
My comments in blue.
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"? It explains the meaning of the verse
What is an "article of food"? You may understand it as certain types of food
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it? All foods as per Quran were permissible. They made certain foods prohibited by themselves not ordained to be prohibited by Allah.
How does any of this relate to "free will"? If you have any point to connect this with "free will", please let me now. I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you. -
My comments in blue.
Let me start with the last point
I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you.You were repeating something I had already shown to be irrelevant or a misunderstanding. There was nothing I could reply other than repeat what I had already said.
The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
The entire issue started with a small side-remark, which was just for information and not part of the grander view, so I think we can drop it.
Maybe you will understand my question better if you read what others have said here http//www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/7818 and many others, such as here http//www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/2problem/208omni.htm
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The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me.The problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
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The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran. If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
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Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me. yesThe problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
Wow! This is a wonderful bit of insight! Nice line of thought and I love the conclusion - even if a god has attributes which limit that freedom as well. Thank you!
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The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran.
OK! THIS is a clear statement. What do you base it on?
If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
Is this the will of the people to go hungry? I think this is also about the claim of the god in the Christian Bible saying that the hungry will be fed and the doubt thereof, not actually the will.
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Our perception of time is what is limited, and this limits our understanding of "free will." God doesn't force our choices. He sees our paths and the choices we've made, because He isn't confined to linear time.
This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free, but we have been given the freedom to choose how we behave within the constraints of the laws God has applied to His Creation. As God is the Creator of the universe and the laws that govern it, His choice to give humans limited free will to act in the universe doesn't conflict with His omniscience since He is not bound by the laws applied to humans.
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works. In the game, you create a world and then create Sims to populate the world you made. If you turn on "free will", the Sims will "choose" their own behaviors according to the limits of the world you've created and the limits of the game, itself. While the Sims are free to decide how they interact in your world, the fact remains that it's still your world and you haven't relinquished any control of it, but just allowed the Sims to assert their will within it.
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Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has. Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so. Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point. In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
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This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free,
How is a god free in any way? What about most merciful? Is this not a restriction?
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works.
The Sims is the perfect example of how free will does NOT work. But I agree it is tempting.
Do you, the player, know what the Sim you control will do the next moment? No, you don't know if they are tired, hungry and dirty, whether they will first eat, sleep or take a shower. You CAN find out because there are priority setting in the code within the game, because they are controlled by code without free will. It is apparent "free will", just as what humans are made to believe they have.That's why I am curious what people here believe is the case with "free will" when pointing out that the decision is already known beforehand. Or is it?
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If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has.
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point.
Well, you don't understand my point, so it does not seem to be THAT simple.
In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
This is not about the Koran. This is about the brain understanding something.
This is not about numbers and how many atheists became theists and how many theists became atheists. This is about logics.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right? -
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Certainly not based on God's knowledge.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?For instance, if you decide to have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, on your own accord, you are free and you can reap the benefits of walking, however, if you are made to, against your will, you are forced. Whatever actions you do it is your choice. You can act stupid blindly believing in advertising slogans or act rationally verifying facts. If you are sick, you can choose medicine for yourself (if you are a doctor), or visit a doctor of your choice, or not to visit any doctor at all and take the risk. The ultimate decision is yours not God's. God's knowledge of your ultimate decision which will not in any way affect your choice.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Imagine I am a teacher who teach science subject for 50 students. I may know which students are likely to pass in the examination based on my experience, knowledge about how brilliant and studious are the children, and how difficult and tough is the question paper, etc. Does my knowledge in any way influence their actuall passing/ failing in the examination? Also imagine I know one student who is the worst performer in the class is going to fail. And if this student fails, is it because of my knowledge this student failed???????? No idiot will say that.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right?
God knows what will be the actual decision one will be taking...myself turning right or left is NOT based/ resultant on God's knowledge of the "actual decision" I will be taking.......just like no man with sense will say it is because of a teacher's knowledge that someone passed or failed. The only difference in the knowledge is that in a teacher's case there is possibility of having "human error", but God's case the knowledge will be perfect without any question of going wrong.