Is "free will" limited by omniscience?
-
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
Salaam StopS
i know that it is difficult to admit even to muslims.
if Mister Israel hadn't forbade "things" for himself, perhaps Muslims would have been allowed to eat pork.
This remark, for a believer, can lead to a reflexion about "religious interdictions".
Funny, no ?More funny. Perhaps pork is a kind of "tag" put on real bani isreal people. Only Gospel has not the pork tag certification.
Peace
-
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
-
The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"?
What is an "article of food"?
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it?
How does any of this relate to "free will"? -
My comments in blue.
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"? It explains the meaning of the verse
What is an "article of food"? You may understand it as certain types of food
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it? All foods as per Quran were permissible. They made certain foods prohibited by themselves not ordained to be prohibited by Allah.
How does any of this relate to "free will"? If you have any point to connect this with "free will", please let me now. I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you. -
My comments in blue.
Let me start with the last point
I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you.You were repeating something I had already shown to be irrelevant or a misunderstanding. There was nothing I could reply other than repeat what I had already said.
The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
The entire issue started with a small side-remark, which was just for information and not part of the grander view, so I think we can drop it.
Maybe you will understand my question better if you read what others have said here http//www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/7818 and many others, such as here http//www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/2problem/208omni.htm
-
The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me.The problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
-
The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran. If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
-
Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me. yesThe problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
Wow! This is a wonderful bit of insight! Nice line of thought and I love the conclusion - even if a god has attributes which limit that freedom as well. Thank you!
-
The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran.
OK! THIS is a clear statement. What do you base it on?
If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
Is this the will of the people to go hungry? I think this is also about the claim of the god in the Christian Bible saying that the hungry will be fed and the doubt thereof, not actually the will.
-
Our perception of time is what is limited, and this limits our understanding of "free will." God doesn't force our choices. He sees our paths and the choices we've made, because He isn't confined to linear time.
This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free, but we have been given the freedom to choose how we behave within the constraints of the laws God has applied to His Creation. As God is the Creator of the universe and the laws that govern it, His choice to give humans limited free will to act in the universe doesn't conflict with His omniscience since He is not bound by the laws applied to humans.
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works. In the game, you create a world and then create Sims to populate the world you made. If you turn on "free will", the Sims will "choose" their own behaviors according to the limits of the world you've created and the limits of the game, itself. While the Sims are free to decide how they interact in your world, the fact remains that it's still your world and you haven't relinquished any control of it, but just allowed the Sims to assert their will within it.
-
Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has. Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so. Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point. In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
-
This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free,
How is a god free in any way? What about most merciful? Is this not a restriction?
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works.
The Sims is the perfect example of how free will does NOT work. But I agree it is tempting.
Do you, the player, know what the Sim you control will do the next moment? No, you don't know if they are tired, hungry and dirty, whether they will first eat, sleep or take a shower. You CAN find out because there are priority setting in the code within the game, because they are controlled by code without free will. It is apparent "free will", just as what humans are made to believe they have.That's why I am curious what people here believe is the case with "free will" when pointing out that the decision is already known beforehand. Or is it?
-
If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has.
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point.
Well, you don't understand my point, so it does not seem to be THAT simple.
In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
This is not about the Koran. This is about the brain understanding something.
This is not about numbers and how many atheists became theists and how many theists became atheists. This is about logics.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right? -
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Certainly not based on God's knowledge.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?For instance, if you decide to have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, on your own accord, you are free and you can reap the benefits of walking, however, if you are made to, against your will, you are forced. Whatever actions you do it is your choice. You can act stupid blindly believing in advertising slogans or act rationally verifying facts. If you are sick, you can choose medicine for yourself (if you are a doctor), or visit a doctor of your choice, or not to visit any doctor at all and take the risk. The ultimate decision is yours not God's. God's knowledge of your ultimate decision which will not in any way affect your choice.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Imagine I am a teacher who teach science subject for 50 students. I may know which students are likely to pass in the examination based on my experience, knowledge about how brilliant and studious are the children, and how difficult and tough is the question paper, etc. Does my knowledge in any way influence their actuall passing/ failing in the examination? Also imagine I know one student who is the worst performer in the class is going to fail. And if this student fails, is it because of my knowledge this student failed???????? No idiot will say that.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right?
God knows what will be the actual decision one will be taking...myself turning right or left is NOT based/ resultant on God's knowledge of the "actual decision" I will be taking.......just like no man with sense will say it is because of a teacher's knowledge that someone passed or failed. The only difference in the knowledge is that in a teacher's case there is possibility of having "human error", but God's case the knowledge will be perfect without any question of going wrong.
-
Peace.
The concept of "free will" involves the ability to make decisions without any controlling influence(s). If God is omniscient, then free will can't exist - since, based on the Qur'aan, Allah knows what decisions we'll make before we make them. In fact, aspects of the Qur'aan even state that Allah makes specific decisions for us, e.g. choosing to guide some and not others, etc. That's the problem with predetermination...
If God knows what will happen in the future, then the future is already predetermined (or 'prewritten' and concrete. Therefore, even if we don't know the future, it is already established beforehand, and there's ultimately nothing we can do to change it. So, if Allah says (or knows) that you will steal a car, there's no way that you can NOT steal the car; the action is predestined and inevitable, and you can't make the "choice" not to commit the crime. We may have the illusion that free will is a reality; but as long as God is described as being omniscient (all-knowing), able to discern future events, then free will is an impossibility, since the implication is that the future is 'written in stone'.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
-
How is a god free in any way? What about most merciful? Is this not a restriction?
The Sims is the perfect example of how free will does NOT work. But I agree it is tempting.
Do you, the player, know what the Sim you control will do the next moment? No, you don't know if they are tired, hungry and dirty, whether they will first eat, sleep or take a shower. You CAN find out because there are priority setting in the code within the game, because they are controlled by code without free will. It is apparent "free will", just as what humans are made to believe they have.That's why I am curious what people here believe is the case with "free will" when pointing out that the decision is already known beforehand. Or is it?
To answer your first question; In my opinion, Most Merciful, like all of God's attributes, is a self-imposed restriction which does not negate Absolute Free Will. Just as when a human chooses to do one thing over another it doesn't negate their free will.
As for the second part, I don't believe in predetermination in the traditional sense, which is why I qouted Sytall's thoughts on how existing in time limits our understanding of infinite. For God, there is no "beforehand" or "future", because time itself is created. So, how can a Creator be bound by an aspect of His own creation?
Within my analogy for The Sims I may not know exactly what the Sim is going to do at any given moment, (since I'm not omniscient and exist within time) but I do know what every possible action is. If I don't like some actions, I can fiddle with the code and make those actions impossible within my world, I can pause the game and cancel it, or I can just let it happen and decide how to react to it.
Within my understanding of God The universe was created with laws (or code) that limit our free will but don't negate it entirely. This is why we're only held responsible for things that are within in our control. He is constantly and immediately aware of every possible action that has ever been taken or ever will be taken, so control is maintained at all times, as any of the negative actions that humans can take can be counteracted easily by a Being who exists outside the confines of time.
-
So, if Allah says (or knows) that you will steal a car, there's no way that you can NOT steal the car; the action is predestined and inevitable, and you can't make the "choice" not to commit the crime.
Salam,
Take care. You are putting the ultimate responsibility of all crimes on God. This is wrong. You are completely contradicting Quran. The attitude of ?I would not have sinned if You (Allah) had not wished so? is the line always taken by infidels and polytheists. They attribute their way of life to Allah?s will -- ?we are what we are because Allah wills so?. As it is said in Sura An?aam ?When you question their (erroneous) way of life, the polytheists will say - ?It is Allah?s will that we are, and our ancestors were, polytheists? (6149). Allah rebuts that statement with ?Whatever you say (and follow) is nothing but pure conjecture (and ignorance)?. In Sura Zakhraf, it says that when you (the Prophet) question them, they say ?We would never have prayed to these idols if God did not will it?. Allah said, ?this is just ignorance. They are nothing but conjectures.? (4320). Sura Yaseen reports that when the rich are asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, the infidels reply ?How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah?s will??. The Quran?s response to that is ?surely, you are in grave ignorance!? (3647).
In fact, aspects of the Qur'aan even state that Allah makes specific decisions for us, e.g. choosing to guide some and not others, etc.
Again your assumption Allah whimsically guides some and misguides some has no basis. Kindly read the following chapter;
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_11.htm
-
Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
very nice comment dear noshirk!
-
Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
Exactly!
Also, it gets silly when we think of God as some character who perceives time, present, future just like us human beings do. This just shows we have no idea what God is... and therefore we make an image of God resembling a human but with superpowers... and since the whole ideas is stupid, we reject the idea of a God, and the following discussions carry this inherent silliness. So, the problem is not God, but the problem is our silly images of God. The problem is also how we understand the concepts we discuss, such as infinity, omniscience, predestination, free will. What do we really know about these things? What does "know the future" mean when talking about God (note I'm not talking about human beings knowing stuff)? What do we understand when we talk about God "doing" something? What do we imagine? A spirit-guy sending mental, telepathic orders to the world of energy and matter? How well do we grasp such things actually? What do we imagine? Do we handle such concepts in everyday life just like we handle pencils, dead lines, promises and cucumbers, with the result of being very familiar with them? We throw so many things into a discussion that are just vague concepts. No matter what the dictionary says, we will still have our own individual perceptions of them all. The discussions will be accordingly.... like parallel monologues as far as conceptual understanding is concerned...
I've always wondered one thing... Are there atheists who sincerely accept the possibility that they (the atheists) are currently unable to perceive that which is God (existing and real) but that God actually exists. I mean, something can be real even though one doesn't believe in it's reality and one haven't had any evidence or experience of it's reality. It's not a difficult thing to think... it's not a far stretch at all, and it doesn't require faith. It's just plain logic. I wonder if any atheists can accept this possibility in all sincerity and honesty. With sincerity I mean that they would actually believe in this possibility. Now, this is not the same as believing in pink elephants with four ears living in ice tunnels in Antarctica. One could argue the same possibility of that. But that is purely made up for the sake of the argument. The notion of a Living Source behind that which is referred to as Creation, is not that far fetched. It's not far fetched to consider a source of everything. The idea of God is not made up just for the sake of the argument. But again, what we think of God as will differ from person to person...