Proposal: A complete refutation to Sunnis.
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Hello. My signature is my contribution with regards to transferring "Qur'an-alone" Islam out of its own sect. Please download a copy of the "Qur'an-alone Commentary" since it addresses their Qur'anic pointers. Besides adding anything extra to that, it would be good to compile all of the anti-hadith data from a historical perspective (i.e. analysing ahadith on their own terms without just using the Qur'an). The commentary is the "death star", and videos like those of "Quranvshadith" on Youtube are the "ground soldiers".
My article "'Free-Minds' = Faith-Free" is my opinion of disagreement in this forum. No-one should take it personally, and people who agree with what you want will agree with this (hopefully).
Peace.
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Salam,
Good idea indeed. I remember someone actually talking about using a drop box to form a library for our research works. This can be added to that drop box library too. Very noble idea.
The only sad part may be is about the religion of "peace" people killing us to get their virgins P
They propagate with blindness and silence people with swords , undoubtedly they are the hypocrites
Anyways, I am a student, but would love to contribute as much as I can
Allah guide us all
------------------------- Student of Allah
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Honestly?
I think the key to your struggle is in your heart and has nothing to do with the legitimacy of (or lack thereof) any religious sect.
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Peace back to anyone who said peace )
AN idea is to compile points and maybe pass it out of Nail it to Mosque Doors (Martin Luther anybody!)
One can make a flier and pass it around, or if you ever meat a muslim (women would be easier to identify b/c of Head cover, just ask them some Questions...
re you a sunni, shia, or a sufi Muslim?
do you follow man-made books and religious fatwas (decrees) by shaikhs and imaams?
have you ever heard of following the quran alone?
You should research about it!Some points etc
The Quran is FULLY DETAILED 6114
The Quran is not missing anything 638
The Quran explains EVERYTHING 12111"Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, "Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you WITH ITand whomever it reaches. Do you testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify ." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate ." (619)
(7) The farewell Pilgrimage of the Prophet Muhammed is a corner stone in the Muslim history. The Final Sermon given by the Prophet during this pilgrimage was witnessed by thousands of Muslims. There are however THREE versions of this sermon in the Hadiths books. This by itself reflects the degree of corruption of the Hadiths books as this is the most witnessed speech of the prophet Muhammed.
1- First version, " I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Family. Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; Ibn Hanbal
4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
This is the version made up by the Shiite Muslims.
2-Second version, "I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Sunnah" . Muwatta, 46/3
This is the version made up by the Sunni Muslims.
3- Third version, "I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the BOOK OF GOD." Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.
And ONLY the book of God.This is the version hated by the Sunni and Shiite Muslims alike. This is the ONLY version that agrees with the repeated assertion in the Quran that Muhammed's message is ONLY the QURAN. Many Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims do not even know that this version of the sermon exists. In reality, they do not want to know, the truth hurts, but Hell fire hurts much more.Consider the hadith of the Pen and paper, where, According to both Bukhari and Muslim, where
the Prophet Muhammad was in his death bed, and asked his Sahaba (comrades) around to bring him a paper and pen to write something for them that they would NEVER divert from the right path.
According to the same "authentic" Sunni hadith books, Omar bin Khattab stopped a sahaba (comrade) who was hurrying for a paper and pen and said the following "The prophet is sick and has fever. He does not know what he is saying, SUFFICIENT FOR US IS GOD?s BOOK" According to the hadith, all the prominent comrades (sahaba) agreed with Omar and Muhammad passed away without writing down his advice.If the QUran was sufficient for them, it would rather be sufficient for us as well.
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If anyone has any central/important teachings, in addition to refute, please post in this thread.
http//paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=16
Peace Be With you.
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peace all,
The idea is a good one but like many projects it requires certain things for it to work. I have completed several projects in this area and have experience publishing also.
I would be happy to lead this project but it will require ACTUAL input, not talk.
First thing we need to do is get some structure to this work, then we can divide the work amongst us
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list some of the key areas/subjects we will tackle - i.e. what are our strongest arguments against Traditional Islam
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what are the most common arguments against 'Quran based islam' brought up by Traditional Muslims
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Which projects are that Wakas? Did you read the link?
Peace Be With You.l
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You definitely have to work on this guys! I feel it is the least we can do. Its our Duty! Do you guys have a dropbox account set up? Let me know if there are any less intelligent (not well read) tasks I can do-) !
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I'd like to say I'd be able to help, but as someone currently grappling with doubt (on faith and other things) I'm not sure I'm fit to do so.
Perhaps it need not be said, but just in case, I would like to mention something. A full on, effective refutation would need to be relatively in-depth. It will not be enough to simply argue that the Quran is complete. Ahl al-hadith often do not care about that. You would need to, beyond reasonable doubt, also prove that the hadith, tabari's tafsir, etc are unreliable sources of religious authority.
That being said, I hope this gets off the ground succesfully and becomes a thing. I feel there is a large amount of good material buried in these forums already, stuff that just needs to be put polished and then all brought together.
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First thing we need to do is get some structure to this work, then we can divide the work amongst us
-
list some of the key areas/subjects we will tackle - i.e. what are our strongest arguments against Traditional Islam
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what are the most common arguments against 'Quran based islam' brought up by Traditional Muslims
To begin, we can link to the various articles across the web that address the above, e.g.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
http//kashifshahzada.com/library/the-authority-of-al-quran/
http//free-minds.org/articles?tid=4etc.
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Question..............what is the purpose of this refutation, to once and for all make sunnis understand they are wrong or to inform sunnis there is a way to be a muslim without hadith?
If this project has the philosophy of proving them wrong it is doomed from the beginning. There is no way to beat dogma with logic.
I think it is worth investigating a little to see if there is any proof if some sunni traditions are older than prophet Muhammed.....For example circumicision=jewish/pagan/christian arab tradition incorporated into sunni islam based on a very vague hadith. However when you look it in the Quran it is clear it doesnt matter if you follow jewish traditions and off a piece of skin, you can still be a muslim.
I am not good at retorics, anyone understand my rambling? To show them they are out of the straight path, but it's ok, Allah will forgive them.It is not their fault they have been force-fed as children.
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Question..............what is the purpose of this refutation, to once and for all make sunnis understand they are wrong or to inform sunnis there is a way to be a muslim without hadith?
If this project has the philosophy of proving them wrong it is doomed from the beginning. There is no way to beat dogma with logic.
I think it is worth investigating a little to see if there is any proof if some sunni traditions are older than prophet Muhammed.....For example circumicision=jewish/pagan/christian arab tradition incorporated into sunni islam based on a very vague hadith. However when you look it in the Quran it is clear it doesnt matter if you follow jewish traditions and off a piece of skin, you can still be a muslim.
I am not good at retorics, anyone understand my rambling? To show them they are out of the straight path, but it's ok, Allah will forgive them.It is not their fault they have been force-fed as children.
I agree. An indirect approach is best. No one will listen if they feel threatened. Not to mention Allah said to preach with kindness and wisdom.
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peace,
Question..............what is the purpose of this refutation, to once and for all make sunnis understand they are wrong or to inform sunnis there is a way to be a muslim without hadith?
For me it is primarily about having a comprehensive source that is widely available, relatively simple to understand, well referenced........... so I/we can refer people to it if they are seeking answers about this or challenging us about it. Personally, I'm not that interested in debating people about it, I'd rather just link to a quality source, then if they want to read it fine, if not, that's their choice.
I would say however, that there is plenty of info out there already (more than ever) for those wishing to investigate, but perhaps not all in one place and/or good quality mixed in with poor quality etc.
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Sunnis (95% of them) won't listen to reason. They're not interested in the truth. They like belonging to a powerful, intimidating, holier than thou group. The target market should really be new converts who are falsely guided by Sunnis & truth seekers. We should also place an emphasis on the scientific and mathematical miracles of Quran. Not necessarily code 19 (Too complicated). But there are many others which most people are not aware of.
I have a good compilation of self incriminating Bukhari and can write. I've seen many other excellent writers on this board, better than myself, as well. Let me know if I can help in any way.
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I would say however, that there is plenty of info out there already (more than ever) for those wishing to investigate, but perhaps not all in one place and/or good quality mixed in with poor quality etc.
I completely agree, it is a very good idea to conclude in one place with reliable references. I was merely pointing out that in order to reach out and with the help of Allah make even a single sunni question his own belief. Then the "place" he can find information should not be named "refutation" to Sunnis. It should also not label sunnism as a "sect" as the article on f-m you linked to.
It will only make people defensive from the start. The best way to make a person realize he is wrong is to give him the tools to realize it by himself. It seldom works if he is told by another he is wrong.
This is something I miss on the f-m........There are a lot of articles about how wrong sunnism/shia and hadiths are bad. If I was a sunni I would feel quite offended. There is not one article describing the QA muslim, how we look at islam and how we are able to live without hadith. If we can put together a piece like that it would a very good refutation against sunnis without even having told them that they are wrong.
The target market should really be new converts who are falsely guided by Sunnis & truth seekers.
This is true. A person who seeks knowledge in islam and goes to the local mosque will never be even close to hearing of AQ.
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peace all,
The idea is a good one but like many projects it requires certain things for it to work. I have completed several projects in this area and have experience publishing also.
I would be happy to lead this project but it will require ACTUAL input, not talk.
First thing we need to do is get some structure to this work, then we can divide the work amongst us
-
list some of the key areas/subjects we will tackle - i.e. what are our strongest arguments against Traditional Islam
-
what are the most common arguments against 'Quran based islam' brought up by Traditional Muslims
Salam wakas )
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the Sunnis and Shias believe in Hadith because of the Narrator, they believe the narrator such as Abu hurayra and other sahaba or tabi'in or whatever is capable enough to be fully trusted as a Righteous person. so i think we shud find some errors from their (narrator_ works and find some hadith that CLEARLY AGAINST THE QURAN as many as we can
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Traditional Muslims oftenly used 'Obey Allah and Messenger' to be their strongest argument against Quranist. for full example, here is the good link from answering x http//www.answering-christianity.com/refutation_to_quranists.htm
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History of Quran, wherever i try to find it, never satisfied me enough. therefore, we should bring some arguments about it.
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I think such repository, classified and indexed is a good idea. It is a lot of work too.
As to have a refuting tool ready made, I think there should be clarity as to what is propounded.
Something I have detected in a lot of what goes on in the forum is to bundle all hadith as if it were a single unit. THEY ARE NOT. And I am not talking about they being authoritative or not, but simply as to content.
There are hadiths which are indiferent morally, and which the best objection to them would be what its significance is. Other hadith are not indiferent, they are directly repulsive, ugly, humilliating, insulting. And then there are hadiths which do have wisdom, bedeep or very deep wisdom. And then there are those which are really inspiring. We cannot just go and charge against hadith as a unit which it is not, as if they were the devil. We cannot fall in the same trap that others have fallen.
A different, completely different question is deriving doctrine or norms or rules from hadith. For individual and private use, one may derive whatever one wants from whatever one wants, for collective use or proposal, no, one cannot. The only normative book is Qur'an, no the bible, not hadith, not anything else. The qur'an itself encloses not very much normative stuff, in most religions, revelation is like that, more principles than myriad of rules. The myriad rules people add them after the fact.
I agree that the institutionalisation of any norm that is not in Qur'an is not permitted. That is the important point. It may inspire, it may make one think deeply, move to wisdom, but if it is not in the Qur'an it cannot bind anybody and should not be used to establish anyting as a rule on the principle that it is God's will or God's or the Prophet's word. It should be enough that their autenticity is not guranteed by God, therefore not guranteed at all.
Another thing of course, is whatever people, on their own authority, not God's authority or the Prophet's may want to propose. It is up to the people, but, please not hiding under the skirts of Go or the Prophet, astaghfirullah.
I say that those hadith that by content deserve respect should be respected, not acknowledged as authentic, because for that we do not have the support of Qur'an, but acknowledged as we acknowledge words of wisdom from other sources, be it the gospels, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, what is obviously wise, is wise, come from whomever.
Those hadith that do not deserve respect, should not get it, just because such stupidity got a pass in collections to joint other stuff that might be from quite a different nature. It is an insult. Le us just imagine for a moment that some writing of Rumi got collected in the same volume with some porno stuff of the most disgusting nature or with snuff stuf. It would be idiotic to confuse both because they come in the same lot. I think that is what the vested interest hadithers did buy their way putting the good with the filth. Now we are paying for their wins through that trick if in their time they did the bod good through misuse of the good, now we are making bad the good, because of their misuse.
And of course, whatever is done, let us not forget that people have hearts and specially sensitivity. We should be respectful of that and proceed with the good maners which are proper of honest people and honest reflecters.
Those and other basic principles should be born in mind, I think from the outset in order to have a good tool for morally sound purposes.
Salaam
