SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"
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Peace Alleycats,
Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.
the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardianshttp//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpgThe only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg
Salaam and thank you Noon, for taking time to respond to my query, and the beautiful snapshots! But i still have some un-clarity about early Arabic script. I have been wondering, if as you stated, the "dots" of the letters were actually not added until about 150 years later, then WHO decided which letters the Kufic represented?
And, were there NEVER the "dots", (not the 'amzah), until the 150 years later??
Just to the best of your understanding, i sure would appreciate! Thank you in advance peace
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Salaam and thank you Noon, for taking time to respond to my query, and the beautiful snapshots! But i still have some un-clarity about early Arabic script. I have been wondering, if as you stated, the "dots" of the letters were actually not added until about 150 years later, then WHO decided which letters the Kufic represented?
And, were there NEVER the "dots", (not the 'amzah), until the 150 years later??
Just to the best of your understanding, i sure would appreciate! ) Thank you in advance peace
Salaam Alleycats, we can clearly see from the old texts there were no dots until much later in history.
Who decided which were doted/written to preserve a "certain interpretation" -- whoever had influence.
Thus in my translation took out dots/dialectical marks, use cross-reference, context for best meaning.
Peace
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Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to mention a different view, which I am increasingly leaning towards
The actual Quran was never a written document, but is and has been from the very beginning an oral tradition. It is a series of syllables forming words forming sentences conveying meaning, not a series of written letters. Any series of letters written down are to be considered nothing more than a memory aid for the recitation of the syllables that form the words, which in turn form the actual Quran. God sent down words, but no set instructions for how they should be spelled or where the dots should be, if any, I think. As long as the words remain, the Quran is preserved, and how people choose to write the words down or mass-produce them in print in order to remember them have no immediate bearing on what has actually been sent down and preserved by the grace of God.Or something like that. I could be completely wrong of course, but this is the only way I can make any real sense of what the Quran actually is...
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Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to mention a different view, which I am increasingly leaning towards
The actual Quran was never a written document, but is and has been from the very beginning an oral tradition. It is a series of syllables forming words forming sentences conveying meaning, not a series of written letters. Any series of letters written down are to be considered nothing more than a memory aid for the recitation of the syllables that form the words, which in turn form the actual Quran. God sent down words, but no set instructions for how they should be spelled or where the dots should be, if any, I think. As long as the words remain, the Quran is preserved, and how people choose to write the words down or mass-produce them in print in order to remember them have no immediate bearing on what has actually been sent down and preserved by the grace of God.
Or something like that. I could be completely wrong of course, but this is the only way I can make any real sense of what the Quran actually is...Agreed
The Quran was memorized by huffaz and was also written, although ancient societies
were primarily oral, they excelled at oral memorization which included the fatihah.Like today a popular song, is known by many.
The "Book" was revealed to Muhammad's via inspiration, into his very being,
not in physical form.Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought
down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will,
confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the
believers."People before us wanted proof of the Quran in physical form
The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them
a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for
more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning
struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped
the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We
supported Moses with profound miracles.Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they
touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no
more than clever magic."And as for those who think that there is something wrong or missing from the text,
think again!Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
Trust God
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
My signature is a riddle. The full riddle goes like this
The secret of monotheism can be found if you reflect on the garden of eden.
Salam, oh, I see. Thanks. Is it meant purely for reflection or is it a riddle with a particular answer?
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Salam, oh, I see. Thanks. Is it meant purely for reflection or is it a riddle with a particular answer?
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes my signature is a riddle/brainteaser/challenge with a particular answer.
Here's a hint "There are three major entities in the garden of eden what are they"?
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes my signature is a riddle/brainteaser/challenge with a particular answer.
Here's a hint "There are three major entities in the garden of eden what are they"?
Salaam, hawkninetynine,
I'm not that good at stuff like this. I'll probably never get it. P This is likely wrong but in terms of entities all I can think of are the garden itself, human beings (at the start) and the presence of God? I doubt that's it... You're gonna have to spell it out for me, sorry. >.<
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Salaam, hawkninetynine,
I'm not that good at stuff like this. I'll probably never get it. This is likely wrong but in terms of entities all I can think of are the garden itself, human beings (at the start) and the presence of God? I doubt that's it... You're gonna have to spell it out for me, sorry. >.<
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
You got two of the three, they are the humans, God and the devil. The relationship
between the three is "the secret to monotheism" no answer required, just something
to reflect about. -
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
You got two of the three, they are the humans, God and the devil. The relationship
between the three is "the secret to monotheism" no answer required, just something
to reflect about.Salaam hawkninetynine,
Not bad... that's an interesting way of looking at it. Does it mean partly that to understand God we must understand our relationship with God?
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Salaam hawkninetynine,
Two out of three... not bad... that's an interesting way of looking at it. Does it mean partly that to understand God, in our own limited way, we must understand our relationship with God?
no idea why this quote automatically came up...
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Dear All,Salam
If you go to Islamic awareness and then to "Sana Quran",you can see that qurans written during 1st century Hijrah do not have sura fatiha.Also go to "quran Complex"in Saudi Arabia,I mean their SITE on internet,you can see pictures of many qurans,of course older qurans,pictures show only the first page,and you will see that many qurans start with sura baqar the 2nd sura now known ti us starting with "alif lam meem".
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.What leap of logic enables 'oldest found' to be 'original'? Even TODAY Muslims burn disused Qurans. What makes you think some disused Quran hidden in some wall is the original?
What other leap of logic makes us think that 'sab3a min al-mathaany' is the fatiha? Or that 'wa' necessarily has to be something else?
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Salamun alaykum
I did not read all of the responses so I am not sure if someone already brought this up.
In surah 1113 it says
Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
in Surah 223 it says
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant, then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful
In surah 11 there are ten surahs before it. In surah 2 there is one surah before it. The fact that Allah specifies to bring ten in the eleventh surah and one in the second surah tells ME that the Fatiha is part of the original Quran and the Quran we have now is ordered as Allah has planned it.
note ***
There is another verse 1038
Or do they say, "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful
This verse is void of the term thereof/of/from/there unto which implies that what is currently existing which in surah 2 the only surah existing before it was surah 1.
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Quite observant and to the point that, Melly, and seems to clinch the question in all simplicity. Thanks so much.
Not that for me it was not clinched before. Somewhat one gets so used to the doom announcements that this or that discovery would make manifest the fallacy of the Qur'an integrity and so forth that no announcement now makes any dent on me. So the Qur'an itself, long before the clever XXIst century seems to have had some gift for record keeping. Great.
Salaam
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Salamun alaykum
I did not read all of the responses so I am not sure if someone already brought this up.
In surah 1113 it says
Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
in Surah 223 it says
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant, then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful
In surah 11 there are ten surahs before it. In surah 2 there is one surah before it. The fact that Allah specifies to bring ten in the eleventh surah and one in the second surah tells ME that the Fatiha is part of the original Quran and the Quran we have now is ordered as Allah has planned it.
note ***
There is another verse 1038
Or do they say, "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful
This verse is void of the term thereof/of/from/there unto which implies that what is currently existing which in surah 2 the only surah existing before it was surah 1.Peace Melly,
Astute observation, thank you.
ONE GOD ONE WAY
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Great points Melly, and everyone else. I view it this way the Shahadah has remained preserved, 631 which shows the second shahadah, that of the hypocrites has remained preserved, the use of the word hadith in the Quran has remained preserved - even if in some verses the translations have tried to twist the meanings especially with the brackets explanations. The structure of the Quran has remained unconventional to the point where those who don't believe call it an "incoherent mess" and some also say that it can even prevent some people from reading it fully - even though it is a book/recitation that calls upon the reader/listener to read it and hear the call.
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The structure of the Quran has remained unconventional to the point where those who don't believe call it an "incoherent mess" and some also say that it can even prevent some people from reading it fully - even though it is a book/recitation that calls upon the reader/listener to read it and hear the call.
I'm really sad for such people because to me, the structure of the Quran is the ultimate way of eliciting its meanings.
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I'm really sad for such people because to me, the structure of the Quran is the ultimate way of eliciting its meanings.
I'm in agreement, I also think it teaches us patience and not to rush to a conclusion. It's really like a journey you take and you have to appreciate the themes and idea rather than individual points. It encourages us to take the Quran as a whole.
Are you Farouk from the Quranist forum? A while ago I used to use that site... some good info on there! Nice to cross paths again.
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Yes I am indeed We're still around in FB. Got a real active group now!
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Yes I am indeed ) We're still around in FB. Got a real active group now!
There were some really interesting posts on that forum. I think it's down now but one about Ramadan and the point that the word "food" is not used. Good to know you're still going! )