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Man_of_Faith

Salaam again,

Today I am going back on my divine mission, but since I felt a bit provoked I had to reply. What I received as a reply was not entirely accurate to the Truth.

What I want to start to say is, the word Muslim does not translate into Believer, this word means something else. The word Muslim means something like someone who submits to God, or some say Peacemaker because it comes from the same root as S L M which gives the greeting Salaam. This word is not used as a name of a religion, but as a way of coming to peace of mind.

There is only one religion in the world, which is accepted by God and that is the religion of God, the rest of the invented names are simply sects (of the one religion). If I, personally, want to refer to my religion, I would say I believe in the religion of God and I am a Believer.

As far as I am concerned, the Arabic word mu'min is the word for Believer, so in that sense I can call myself 'Mu'min' then if I would like to tell my faith in Arabic, but this does not place me in one folder, I could belong to any sect in the world, as long as they worship God alone. This is what God meant when He said that we should not break into sects, but this is unfortunately what keeps happening.

You say "associate with any religion", I surely associate myself with the religion of God, would it make me a religious maverick?

I acknowledge every single scripture on the face of the Earth which promotes the worship of God alone, is a scripture which tells people to be righteous and talks about eternal life. It is only that I have realized the Quran to be the only seemingly intact scripture because God has not allowed it to change and it is the Final Testament (as some people call it). It does not mean it is the last discourse you can read which is inspired by God, because anything a righteous believer does can be inspired by God, try to read the poem 'Footprints in the Sand' from 1936'.

I do not like to call people wrong, but I would like to object on this about Muslims are necessarily people who specifically follow the Quran, even those who followed the teachings of Jesus in a proper way (being monotheists) were also Muslims, being Muslim means to follow the same Message as both Jesus and Muhammad carried about being peaceful and friendly, the whole "religion" tells you to be making peace with both yourself and others. God hints at this thing about calling yourself Muslim in the Quran, where he says you should not call yourselves Muslims but Believers, it could have been that people had the same issue those 1400 years ago. If you truly believe and you are certain at heart it is more appropriate to refer to yourself as a Believer.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to continue ramble on about the Message at this time, but there are lots of enlightened souls on this forum who can give more details in brief. I am today to travel to a country which has decided to ban freeminds.org on their internet, so may take some time before I can join again and write a reply.

ps. It is fortunate that I do not have this issue of marriage at my hands then ds.

RidaKhan

Salaam again,

Today I am going back on my divine mission, but since I felt a bit provoked I had to reply. What I received as a reply was not entirely accurate to the Truth.

What I want to start to say is, the word Muslim does not translate into Believer, this word means something else. The word Muslim means something like someone who submits to God, or some say Peacemaker because it comes from the same root as S L M which gives the greeting Salaam. This word is not used as a name of a religion, but as a way of coming to peace of mind.

As far as I am concerned, the Arabic word mu'min is the word for Believer, so in that sense I can call myself 'Mu'min' then if I would like to tell my faith in Arabic, but this does not place me in one folder, I could belong to any sect in the world, as long as they worship God alone. This is what God meant when He said that we should not break into sects, but this is unfortunately what keeps happening.

I do not like to call people wrong, but I would like to object on this about Muslims are necessarily people who specifically follow the Quran, even those who followed the teachings of Jesus in a proper way (being monotheists) were also Muslims, being Muslim means to follow the same Message as both Jesus and Muhammad carried about being peaceful and friendly, the whole "religion" tells you to be making peace with both yourself and others. God hints at this thing about calling yourself Muslim in the Quran, where he says you should not call yourselves Muslims but Believers, it could have been that people had the same issue those 1400 years ago. If you truly believe and you are certain at heart it is more appropriate to refer to yourself as a Believer.

Well, i hope you enjoy your trip. But it seems from your background that you are not a first language Arabic speaker, as you stated the meanings and the root words of both Muslim and Momin wrong. And I state the following to expand your Arabic knowledge, as many out there are not aware of the classical Arabic literature.

The word Muslim is derived from the word Islam, and with the word Islam, the focus is on the letters Seen- Lam- Meem. Following is a detailed description of the various scholars and the linguists.

All the basic meanings are taken from Moheet, Taj and Lane; these are eight in number-
Salema means he got purified from all the defects, shortcomings; all the shortcomings are complemented. Verse (Quran verse 2/71) refers to the cow that is perfect and without any defect, so its basic meanings are to get well and perfect, complete in all respects so that no defect remains.

To remain safe from all dangers, accidents, mishaps. Ibn-e-Faris says that its basic meanings are more inclined towards perfection in health, safety and security. As-Sal'am is also one of the names of Allah used in the Quran (59/23) which means free from all defects and shortcomings and who faces no danger from anything. The author of Taj-ul-Urus, however, disagrees with this and says that Sal'amun means someone from whom safety and security is sought. Sal'am is one of the names of Allah, as He has kept the entire creation safe from all catastrophes and His System and Laws are in operation with perfection.

As-Sullamu means a ladder used to reach some high place and is safe and dependable. So the third meanings are the ways and means by which someone can reach the heights with confidence.

As-Silmu (2/20 means one who lives with peace and order and also maintains peace and order. Tasalamat-il-Khailo means horses who march in step; no horse creates any trouble or mischief - all are in one step. This explains the Islamic System. As-Silmu-wa-As-Salamu means to be obedient, to bow, to surrender. So the fifth basic meanings are to bow to and obey the Laws of Allah in totality. Nawab Siddique Hasan Khan writes that the basic meanings contain the element of humility and softness.

Is-Taslama Sakamat-Tareeq means one who walked in the middle of the path and did not deviate from it. Qaloo Salama means who leads or takes up the middle path, does not look either side and avoids obscene things or lewdness. So the sixth meanings of this root are to adopt a balanced way and avoid obscenities, filthiness, indecency, and immodesty.

Is-Talam-az-Zaru means the crop has ripened. So the seventh meanings of this root are a system under which efforts bear fruit. As-Salimatu is a woman whose hands, feet and limbs are soft, beautiful and in perfect shape. So the eighth meanings of this root are beauty and elegance.

To sum up, Al-Islam means a system or code of life which-
Removes all the shortcomings of a person and enables him to develop all his potentialities.
Safeguards him from all the dangers, catastrophes and degradations of life, and
marches him on towards higher evolutionary stages of life. Enables not only himself to lead a peaceful life but also helps maintain peace and order around him and in the whole world.
Trains him to live in harmony among other fellow beings and not to commit any act by which someone else gets enraged or upset.

So like you said the "peacemaker" but by following ONLY Quran alone. (and using knowledge, 'ilm' to help consolidate the Quranic views/ Islamic social order).

So Islam is that code of life which has been revealed by Allah for the mankind. There is no other code acceptable to Him. In Surah 'Ale-Imran (3), verse 82, Quran says, "Do those people desire some different Deen than the one ordained by Allah?" At another place, "Whereas whatever is there in the universe follows the way which leads to the goal set for them by Allah" (13/15). At yet another place, "If someone adopts a way other than this, it will not be acceptable and in the end he will be the loser" (3/84). This is the Code which was revealed to various Anbia from time to time and its final and complete form to Rasool Allah (peace be upon him) and this code has been selected for the entire mankind. This code of life has been named Al-Islam and the followers of this Code are called Muslimeen. A Muslim is he, who accepts the Holy Quran as the one and only, complete and final Code revealed by Allah for the mankind.

NOW as for the word "Momin". It actually originates from the word "Aman". Ask any Urdu/ Sanskrit speakers and they will reassure you that Aman means "Peace". Thus Momin is a person who practices peace in Sub-continental language. You may argue that it is not Arabic, thus I will give you the Quran word "Ei'man" from which the word Momin is derived from. The root word for Eiman are Alif- Meem- Noon.

Amnun means peace, safety, state of mind where one feels safe from fear or danger (2/24). Also when one feels safe, secure and at peace. Ibn-e-Faris says that its basic meanings are-
Peace of mind. To testify. The opposite of dishonesty.

Amana is to satisfy someone and put him at ease without fear, to provide peace or protection to someone, to take over the responsibilities of someone's protection (Taj).

Aitimanun is to trust someone, have confidence on someone, take someone as trustee or protector (Taj).

Naq'atun Amoon is a she-camel which is dependable by virtue of her qualities and can take one through the journey without getting weak or falling down after stumbling (Taj).

Momin is one who stands guarantee for peace, upon whom one can depend, rely and then rest at peace, one who guarantee international peace (Taj).
Amanat is something which is entrusted to someone (Moheet).
Ameen is one who is contended, at peace, trustworthy, reliable, dependable.
Baladun Ameen is a city where peace and security prevails (Makkah)(95/3).

Muqamun Ameen is a place which provides adequate provisions of protection and security (44/52).
To declare Ei'man, therefore, means-
To believe, admit, accept or not to reject.
To testify the truthfulness, not to contradict.
To have confidence, reliance, trust.
To accept, to obey, to bow in obedience.

According to the Holy Quran, Ei'man on the following five fundamental entities is needed in order to become a Momin (2/177)-
The Allah.
The Law of Mukaf'at and the life Hereafter.
The Malaika.
The revealed Books.
The Anbia.

And Momin is one who accepts the truth and acts in such a way that it ensures his own peace and helps him to safeguard the peace and security of the rest of mankind. Indeed, Al-Momin is one of the most important Attributes of Allah Himself.

Personally I wouldn't call myself a "Momin" simply because Momin is an attribute to Allah and also because I do not believe I have done enough good deeds to achieve a status like that of Momin. Thus, I simply call myself a Muslim, i.e a follower of Islam and its holy book Quran.

Umm... I sort of have a feeling, you also believe that "Malaika" means "Angels" and "Shaitan" means the "Devil"...? Yes?... Even though, the both concepts Angels and Shaitan are neither Islamic and nor rational. And certainly derived from the Christian concepts of Angels and Satan. Will discuss further, if you are interested. In my understanding, not only the word Muslim translates as the follower of Islam and Quran, but also as a Believer of the guidelines of the Quran. You tend to put the the term "believer" in a more generic form.

I still do not understand which religion you identify yourself as on your passport. My guess is still "Other".

abdalquran

As I said, if you choose to read the aya literally, then read it in full. Liyakoona ar rasool shahidan alaikum says that he 'named' you al muslimeen so therasool is witness over you. If you got the messenger hovering over you, that's great but I don't. So I try to read it descriptively.

As for the terms no catching on the middle east, the BIGGEST quranist group, the ahl al quran are in EGYPT. so much for your "period' , hehe.

hawk99

Umm... I sort of have a feeling, you also believe that "Malaika" means "Angels" and "Shaitan" means the "Devil"...? Yes?... Even though, the both concepts Angels and Shaitan are neither Islamic and nor
rational. And certainly derived from the Christian concepts of Angels and Satan. Will
discuss further, if you are interested. In my understanding, not only the word Muslim
translates as the follower of Islam and Quran, but also as a Believer of the guidelines of the Quran.
You tend to put the the term "believer" in a more generic form.

Peace RidaKhan,

Good stuff, please continue with your explanation of angels and satan God willing.

Zulf

Peace Rida,

But someone like yourself, it is really difficult because on one hand your understanding of the word 'believer' is same as a Muslim (considering you take Quran as your guide book of course). Yet, on the other hand it is very difficult to determine your faith. For example, when you travel, on your passport, what religion would you identity yourself as, Muslim? or Other (i.e monotheism, humanism etc).

and

I still do not understand which religion you identify yourself as on your passport. My guess is still "Other".

What is there to understand? What do you mean 'determine' the faith? Why should we "determine" the faith of someone? How could we possibly anyway? Isn't it only God that can know our faith? Why must we be labelled with this or that religion? Wasn't the whole point NOT to label people?

And why do we have to associate ourselves with any particular religion, especially in a passport? Why do we necessarily have to select a label? Is it a must, or necessary? No, not at all. On the contrary..

Why do you assume Man of Faith is citizen of a country that has religion inserted as a field in the passport? Do japanese and australian passports have religious affiliation noted in them? I know pakistani passports have.... and I think it is utterly ridiculous. What's the point? It's nothing but detrimental and discriminating... and just plain irritating. A person is a person and it's nobody's business what religion, let alone faith, that someone has, unless he or she willingly shares it. If we have religion in the passport we can just aswell have favorite food and political affiliation also in there. So, I doubt that Man of Faith even has the option 'other' in his passport.

Just my personal opinion... which I needed to vent...
No harshness intended.. hope it didn't come across as that.

//Fair and lovely

easternqibla

An interesting introduction.
Richard

RidaKhan

Peace Rida,

//Wasn't the whole point NOT to label people?//

Rida Yes, I agree the whole point was to avoid "new labels" invented by the modern era. You seem to have gotten offended by me asking Man of Faith about what he will put on his passport?

It's just a question lol. Seriously, like you know some passports do require it. And besides, here we have like annual Australian Bureau of Statistics that determine x, y, z proportions of different religious groups in Australia.

I still don't know what Man of Faith will put down himself. My guess is still "Other". Though, you should probably let Man of Faith reply, as the question was aimed at him, not you lol.

RidaKhan

As I said, if you choose to read the aya literally, then read it in full. Liyakoona ar rasool shahidan alaikum says that he 'named' you al muslimeen so therasool is witness over you. If you got the messenger hovering over you, that's great but I don't. So I try to read it descriptively.//

I think we are agreeing. Yay! D

//As for the terms no catching on the middle east, the BIGGEST quranist group, the ahl al quran are in EGYPT. so much for your "period' , hehe.//

You are funny. Arab world makes only 15% percent of the Islamic world. Egypt is likely to be part of that 15%. So again, you are wrong (with ALL DUE RESPECT), the Ahl-e-Quran is a very small sect. And sects shouldn't be created to begin with.

But I wonder Are you a member of Ahl-e-Quran?.. Just a general question Are you guys allowed to go to Mecca and perform hajj/ umrah? Or Has the Saudis banned you/ other Ahl-e-Quran followers due to rejection of hadiths?

Do enlighten me. )

RidaKhan

An interesting introduction. )
Richard

Thanks Richard!

Zulf

Rida Yes, I agree the whole point was to avoid "new labels" invented by the modern era. You seem to have gotten offended by me asking Man of Faith about what he will put on his passport?

No worries... I'm not offended by you... it's rather the topic itself that causes some boiling... but not you or your question as such.

It's just a question lol. Seriously, like you know some passports do require it. And besides, here we have like annual Australian Bureau of Statistics that determine x, y, z proportions of different religious groups in Australia.

Sure, statistics are gathered about so many different things, and that's great I think... but to be branded with a religion in the passport is what I have issues with. A passport is a document stating your identity... and I don't think religion qualifies as an identity marker, like DOB, place of birth, names, photo etc, since it doesn't really help identifying someone in any real sense.

I still don't know what Man of Faith will put down himself. My guess is still "Other". Though, you should probably let Man of Faith reply, as the question was aimed at him, not you lol.

He's most welcome to answer anytime he wishes. I took the liberty to add my own two cents. I would be interesting to hear what he would have put down if he had to make a choice. Like we know, some countries do require it, and it's not an option to just leave it out.

Cheers

Man_of_Faith

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,

Peace RidaKhan,

First I am going to start by saying, I was able, in odd ways, to dodge the censorship and go online on free-minds.org, thanks God for this browser alternative.

You are right in the regard that Arabic is not my primary language, but you seem to have misunderstood my point in the post you read, since you said I tried to claim that Mu?min is the same as Muslim or translate into this, which I never did. I tried to define the word Muslim according to my knowledge, which is something like Peacemaker and the words Islam, Muslim and Salaam come from the root S L M. It does not take an expert to draw these conclusions I did, and I did not make this discovery on my own, credit is to people on this forum. I think the word Peacemaker/Submitter is still not the right choice to properly define Muslim, but something like Truth-seeker or similar.

One does not have to be a Muslim to grasp the Message which all messengers came with and they all brought the same Message with some adjustments to the contents. Following the basic principles of the religion of God is simple, it means believing in God alone and the Hereafter, and to be a righteous believer. The Quran is a good book to guide people to be righteous, but this does not mean a man or a woman cannot be living in the Light of God without it.

You are right in many ways, and I knew most of what you wrote already, but it was well written to the depth of it, I could learn at least a thing or two from it. The only problem is that this boastful contentment with the Quran has rendered you slightly arrogant to the extent of denying all the existing religions (sects) in the world. You do not have to be speaking and writing Arabic to grasp God?s Message, which has been on since before religious guidance was offered from the Quran, some people in past times were righteous and they did not have the Quran. One does only have to follow the principles I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
The Bible, in its partial impurity, is still a valid scripture and you can live quite well, by following which can be considered righteousness from it. I was following the Message the Bible (Torah/Gospel) carried before I stumbled onto the Quran and I cannot say I was on a highway to Hell before I did so, I saw through Satan?s tricks with the trinity and invented stories about Jesus and I was a monotheist believer even then. I had never even taken my eyes upon the Quran before that and read the warnings about Jesus and the belief in the trinity.

Please do not get me wrong, the Quran is a most excellent book, perfectly detailed and it is not seemingly biased, its Message can be understood even with a quite poorly translated Quran, which was the case with my Abdullah Yusuf Ali?s translation from 1938. It was the time I embraced ?Islam? and acknowledged this Message as coming from God, when I read it about three years ago. Even before I read it I was blessed by the Lord and it was surely His will that I met a woman of Muslim origin and married her, and got my hands on the Quran.

I would thus not call myself unguided before I begun studying the Quran and in this regard I was already a ?Muslim? (perhaps Truth-seeker?) before I did so, because this term does not have to do with the Quran. It is a man?s path to seek inner peace through God?s inspiration and this is what the name God wants to present in the Quran, and it does not have anything to do with having a sort of uniqueness to people who embrace Islam. That is why before one has not reached this inner peace you are called Muslim but not a Mu?min.

If we want to classify ourselves by the ?name? Muslims, through the name Islam, we break God?s commandment of not divide ourselves into sects, because it is what it is, at least if we think it is a special religion exclusive to those who call themselves Muslim.

I must thank you for providing me with some additional information which I did not know, or if I did know it, you put new light to it, you had me thinking, even if I have not changed my mind regarding my perception of the Truth, as I am most certain about it.

You said that I put Believer into a generic form, I say that I choose this neutral term because it means just as it is usually perceived, as someone who believes in God, since there is only one God, one religion, thus making the term Muslim less attractive, if one wants to be open to the world. Now that you do say that Mu?min is not believer in this regard I am sure either the translation of the verse which refers to when one should call himself/herself a Mu?min is either mistranslated or you are giving me misinformation. If your heart is not absolutely certain about the Truth, then you are not a Mu?min, and most people seem not to be that. One has to reach a peace of mind through the Lord, to get this ?label?, but this is the most righteous term to define oneself, I translate it into Believer with a capital B because I have a lack in other words to describe it right now, but if you have another term which defines it better then go ahead and tell me.

Source in Quran 4914-15 (I read more than one translation/interpretation and also asked my wife)

This verse, as well as many others, hints at Muslim just being a definition and not a proper name. Therefore, (true) Believer feels more appropriate than creating just another sect through Islam, which is also not a name but a way of living (to reach inner peace).

Of course I could elaborate this whole thing, but I know you already know what it means to have a balanced soul and be on God?s side.

This whole viewpoint leads us to the common stereotypical argument, that we are right while they are wrong, does that make us righteous people?

If it would be possible, if my passport had this information, to state my religion, I would have wanted it to say ?the religion of God? or ?God?s religion?, since it is the most accurate term. There is only one religion and that is God?s religion. Creating religious sects is just causing additional imbalance in the peace of the Earth, hence I free myself of the boundaries of a specific religion. If you want to call me ?Other? as religion, then please go ahead and do it, but I would say that it is Christian, Jew, Muslim etc, which is in the ?Other? category. For non-other, the choice is God?s religion. So it is either God?s religion or ?Other?.

If you believe there is only one God and found the true Path, then you are not locked to a religion (sect), but ?locked? to God, He is your Master. If you want to call yourself Muslim, then you better do it with the right intention, but I prefer to use simply a Believer, who grasped the whole Message, and acknowledge the Message as the Truth, the Message of all messengers that ever put their feet on the face of the Earth. Hence I chose Believer as my definition, or Mu?meen. I chose the nickname on this forum with the same thing on my mind, ?Man of Faith?, there are probably dozens of names which can describe the same state of consciousness.

I have heard the English definition ?Submitter? for Muslim and perhaps this is the correct choice before you become a ?Mu?min, but of course it is difficult to simply translate the words from Arabic as they lose some of their meaning. Truth-seeker or some other way to define the words in English may be necessary.

I hope I, by posting this, do not ignite immense fury and we can peacefully settle possible disagreements and that we respect each other. I accept your choice to call yourself Muslim, but just do not get fixated with it being a unique name for a member of the religion Islam, since even a righteous Christian could most probably be a Muslim. I tried to be as respectful as I could and I apologize in advance if I still stirred up some negative emotions.

I am aware that I was using slightly accusing words at some portions of the text, but I still appreciate your knowledge and I am respectful of it. Your Arabic is certainly better than mine, but we must still contemplate the Quran?s true meaning. I respect the translations I have read and I am sure they did their utmost to present it as accurate as they could, considering Arabic is used in a completely different way than English. And I study the original Arabic Quran together with those who are more knowledgeable in Arabic than I am.

Also, I apologize for the length of this post, I feel as I could ramble on forever, but I am misusing both my time and yours. I could, God willing, cover everything I wanted through this post, unless additional questions arise.

Finally, I would like to praise God for being so gracious, most merciful.

God bless you RidaKhan and everyone else that may be reading this post

supportpeacenotwar

NOTE Most people here are defining themselves via their religious views. Let me just break the tradition.

It's sort of funny how most of you guys came to this website to learn about Islam (apparently from a Quranic perspective), but then got into heated (or not so heated) discussions and even got to the stage of constructing an "online- dating" space for 'Quranists'...?

That was fast lol.

Khair I am Rida Khan. I was born in Pakistan, but I was 3 years old when I moved to Japan, making Japanese my first language. I did part of my primary education there and lived in the cities of Amami Oshima, Tsukuba and Tokyo. I later migrated to Pakistan and completed my primary education there while learning about my dominant culture, its languages and traditions. I migrated to Australia in 2005, grew up in a country town and completed my high school there. In 2012, I moved to Melbourne to complete my undergrad studies.

I am a production and reflections of the cultures I lived in and the people I met. My multi- lingual abilities have allowed me to explore Quran and Islam in ways that most people may not be able to due to the lack of diversity. I am neither Western, nor Eastern. I do not call myself a feminist as I believe in fighting for the rights of all human beings equally rather than just women. I do not role model any one, but admire many for their good work.

Welcome to the forum. welcome
I have quite a few things in common with you.
I actually don't identify as Western or Eastern either and I don't label myself as feminist - it might be counterproductive in terms of how people view some of the causes.

I don't think I am here to date anyone simply because they are not likely to be in Australia and I don't do long-distance relationships. And the fact that most people have jobs in the country they are living in and are unlikely to move just because they met someone in the internet world. Sure, there are romantics out there. But after a hell of dating both online and face to face, I am just not so sure. If we meet, great. If we don't, my guess is we will do just fine.

I didn't realise people viewed this as a dating site. I didn't even notice the "matrimony" section until some "recent posts" popped up there.

MY VIEWS

There are so many things that I am not. A bad person? Hope not. I refuse to call myself a Quranist or a follower of Quranism, or Ahl-e-Quran, or Anti- hadith to the extent of disrespectful and hateful of those who follow hadiths. I am not a Quran-aloner, God- aloner and Prophet Muhammad is not my "father" and neither are his wives my "mother/s". Some non- Muslims label me as a "humanist", even though my views are based on the teachings of Quran which indeed is a guide book for humanity. Am I a Capitalist? No. Anarchist? No. Any other form of 'ist' = no. I am liberal, but not a libertarian and nor am I a hijabi (the most messed up label of the 21st century). I do not like to be called "Parwezi" just because I admire and appreciate the works of Ghulam Ahmed Parwez. How would you like to be called 'Akonian' for listening to the rap songs by Akon? Chamak Challo?... Seriously dude. People just like to label everyone and everything allowing media to throw on more jargon towards Islam and Muslims.

I find there is a very negative attitude towards those following hadiths in any shape or form sometimes. I wonder how these people are much different from the people who have a similar negative attitude to "us". Some people even say that people in Arab countries etc are facing war and bloodshed because they are because of following hadiths, like a punishment? How do we know that? And what if believers are caught up in it? It just seems very inappropriate and cruel given what the Quran says and how it is Allah who knows best the challenges He brings forth for people. It reminds me of what Prophet Job went through, and how some people even abandoned him.

Above all, if you all really, honestly, absolutely believe that Quran is the word of the Divine. And that as Muslims our purpose in the world is to work towards World Peace. Then, be prepared to compromise and stand firm to keep peace.

What do you mean by compromise? There really is a distinction, at times, from attempting to please or appease people, atheists lets say. I find this is a group that people can easily end up trying to "appease" if they are religious. In fact, I've seen some Atheists who have commented back about my views - negatively and as though they are offended - about ridicule of certain things religious people do (I think it was about songs that religious people may write during times of hardship and then simply ridiculing this), but these same people think its ok for them to say whatever they want about anything and ridicule it etc. so, why would it be an issue for me to raise questions about what they do? I'm not sure if you meant appease when you said compromise, I'm just mentioning a point that came to mind.

And yes, that does mean that we need to work in conjunction with the mainstream Muslim community, NOT against them. Universal unity is an Islamic goal, not grouping down into more sects. And I emphasize this more towards the new breed of converted Muslims in the Western world, with all due respect to their inputs towards Islam.

I agree, they might need to meet us half way though.

Emil

Any other form of 'ist' = no.

introspectionist?

No?

Emil

ps. Welcome

Awaal_Muslim