An article on: Intercession and Transfer of deeds

unknownuser

Deleted by request

unknownuser

Anyone? Too long? O0

unknownuser

'(

IAMOP

What I took from that is that the 'burden' is the weight of one's evil deeds. In God's eyes, good deeds are light on the scale/mizan. But evil deeds make it weigh down. Thus, a good deed could not be a burden, it is the opposite of a burden, it is a light.

In goodness, it might be that there is a different means of judgement. Everybody owns their own evil and it is bound to them. So nobody's works but their own can release THOSE evils that belong to them and themselves alone.

However, it might be possible that you can do good works on behalf of someone and this will add to their good works. But this will not nullify their evil if they have any whatsoever.

Contemplate how God would reward INSPIRATION. If someone lived a mundane life, but lived it in such a way that their very EXISTENCE on earth, their very nature, inspired countless others to actually actively do good works in their name, would they not get rewarded for this? They have not batted an eyelid, nor have they intentionally desired to inspire, but just by abiding in their own good nature, many others see the light within themselves and channel it towards goodness. So this person, while having done nothing much of substance, has managed to cause/effect many good works by abiding.

Although there is no direct chain of cause-effect between this person and their inspired ones, they did 'cause' many to do good and consequently will probably have a share in those works.

Yet if this person committed evil, there is no direct chain of cause-effect between this person and their inspired ones. Those good works could not nullify their evil in the same way that a person who heals another who has been shot, does not nullify the evil of the person who shot them. Although the shooter caused a good work to be carried out, the fact they shot someone nullified their causative relationship to that good work.

peace

noshirk

salaam bro

Even if the subject was not of interest for me, i appreciate your conclusion and the way you leads your research.
You are wasting time with me since i was already convinced.

it is however interesting to note that saying that God don't accept shaffaa of his nabi is, someway, quite saying that God don't follow hadiths even if he is sure that they are authentic.

The concept of shafaa seems absurd to me. it is like saying that good pupils can ask the teacher to make bad pupils succeds by transfering good answers.
it is in total opposition with the concept of exam,success and equity.

However, there is an interesting for me when reading 53-26
Why malaika want to make shafaa on us ?
Strange no ?

Peace

Bender

Salamun Alaykum people,

Ch. 39 Verse 4 To Allah belongs the Shafa?at completely.

If you read again the very first verse I cited in reference to this topic (394)

Salaamun alayka,

For the moment I only wanted to point out the highlighted, I think you meant 3944.

salaam,
Bender

unknownuser

Salam...

I pondered over this subject long ago and, after grouping together all the passages in the Quran that mention intercession (whether directly, or in allusion), I reached the conclusion that only the malai'ka can intercede on our behalf, because they are watching our deeds.

Look at this, for instance

{The Day when the Spirit and the mala'ika stand in line, none will speak unless the Almighty permits him and he speaks what is true}...

Everytime you encounter the expression {none will speak unless the Almighty permits} or {none can intercede except by His leave}, or anything of the sort (conditional intercession), you can bet the context is always about mala'ika (read the passage in question, from beginning to end, and you will confirm this).

Regards.

unknownuser

Praise to the Lord that I got replies, for a minute there I just became depressed '(

Peace everyone, one by one, within this same post, I'll reply to all of you.

What I took from that is that the 'burden' is the weight of one's evil deeds. In God's eyes, good deeds are light on the scale/mizan. But evil deeds make it weigh down. Thus, a good deed could not be a burden, it is the opposite of a burden, it is a light.

In goodness, it might be that there is a different means of judgement. Everybody owns their own evil and it is bound to them. So nobody's works but their own can release THOSE evils that belong to them and themselves alone.

However, it might be possible that you can do good works on behalf of someone and this will add to their good works. But this will not nullify their evil if they have any whatsoever.

Contemplate how God would reward INSPIRATION. If someone lived a mundane life, but lived it in such a way that their very EXISTENCE on earth, their very nature, inspired countless others to actually actively do good works in their name, would they not get rewarded for this? They have not batted an eyelid, nor have they intentionally desired to inspire, but just by abiding in their own good nature, many others see the light within themselves and channel it towards goodness. So this person, while having done nothing much of substance, has managed to cause/effect many good works by abiding.

Although there is no direct chain of cause-effect between this person and their inspired ones, they did 'cause' many to do good and consequently will probably have a share in those works.

Yet if this person committed evil, there is no direct chain of cause-effect between this person and their inspired ones. Those good works could not nullify their evil in the same way that a person who heals another who has been shot, does not nullify the evil of the person who shot them. Although the shooter caused a good work to be carried out, the fact they shot someone nullified their causative relationship to that good work.

peace

Salamun Alayka,

Thanks a lot for pointing out to me that burden can only be known as evil deeds. If you could be kind enough to give a reference to the place where good deeds are considered 'light', I would highly appreciate it, I remember reading it somewhere, but don't remember where exactly. Then I could edit my article.

Regarding your second point, though I'm leaning towards agreeing with you on the scenario you described, as it seems to go inline with 485 which I cited, but you say 'They have not batted an eyelid, nor have they intentionally desired to inspire', I believe that we'll be judged by intentions, based on 1074-6 and similar passages. I mean, let's say that a person is spending a lot on charity, but has the intention only to show off his wealth and has no intention to gain the pleasure of God, many people are also inspired by him to spend money, some of those spend in the way of God sincerely as well, due to his inspiration. Although in reality, he himself did not spend to please God, then how do you think he'll be judged? This is getting interesting...

salaam bro

Even if the subject was not of interest for me, i appreciate your conclusion and the way you leads your research.
You are wasting time with me since i was already convinced.

it is however interesting to note that saying that God don't accept shaffaa of his nabi is, someway, quite saying that God don't follow hadiths even if he is sure that they are authentic.

The concept of shafaa seems absurd to me. it is like saying that good pupils can ask the teacher to make bad pupils succeds by transfering good answers.
it is in total opposition with the concept of exam,success and equity.

However, there is an interesting for me when reading 53-26
Why malaika want to make shafaa on us ?
Strange no ?

Peace

Salam to you too bro,

I really appreciate your honesty. Anyway, the concept of Shaf'aa that you mentioned is the way the traditional people understand it. I, through my conclusions, am not stating that Shaf'a is like saying that good pupils can ask the teacher to make bad pupils pass by transfering good answers. Instead, what I'm saying is - based on the core meanings of Shaf'a and the context of the verses using it - that Shaf'a simply refers to a formal form of approval done by the Malaikah for those people who have already gained the acceptance of God. It like saying that really intelligent pupils who got around 95% + marks on a test, greet, welcome, and show their happiness for those students who also passed with good marks but lower, like around 85%, in front of their teacher. You see what I mean?

Salaamun alayka,

For the moment I only wanted to point out the highlighted, I think you meant 3944.

salaam,
Bender

Salam brother,

Ah, thank you so much for this. This is what I like about you guys here on Free-Minds, you check the references ;D.

Salam...

I pondered over this subject long ago and, after grouping together all the passages in the Quran that mention intercession (whether directly, or in allusion), I reached the conclusion that only the malai'ka can intercede on our behalf, because they are watching our deeds.

Look at this, for instance

{The Day when the Spirit and the mala'ika stand in line, none will speak unless the Almighty permits him and he speaks what is true}...

Everytime you encounter the expression {none will speak unless the Almighty permits} or {none can intercede except by His leave}, or anything of the sort (conditional intercession), you can bet the context is always about mala'ika (read the passage in question, from beginning to end, and you will confirm this).

Regards.

Salam to you too brother,

Ah, thanks for your input, like I said, I was also leaning towards that only Malaikah can do Shaf'a. And that verse you cited - I'm very happy you showed it to me. There is only 2125-9 which acts as an obstacle in saying that only Malaikah can do it, because its context begins by mentioning 'messengers', and mentions them as doing Shaf'a. What do you think?

unknownuser

You raise a good question...However, if we read those signs of Surah 21 carefully, we find that the meaning fits just as well if we understand "the child" mentioned in 2126 to be the mala'ika. They claimed that Allah has taken a walad (meaning child - which could be male or female). The reply was No, they are not but honored servants (note here how it switches to plural. This style is very common in the Quran).

Elsewhere , we see that the malaika were thought to be female children of Allah. Pay close attention to 37149-153
and also 4315-20 the context is clearly about Malai'ka.

Going back to 2255, this is actually the famous Ayat al-Kursi. The Muslims are fond of buying caligraphic printings of this ayah, in fancy frames, and hanging them on their walls, without ever contemplating what the ayah actually means, or who is the speaker

I believe it is a praise to Allah spoken by Jibreel, on behalf of all the malai'ka

{Allah, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him (among the mala'ika) except with His permission? He knows their present and their future (the malai'ka) and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His kursi encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great}...

Who is the speaker there? If Allah is the speaker, why would He say "There is no god but HE"?? ...."No slumber overtakes Him"??
These questions have troubled me for ages. The most logical explanation is that Jibreel is the speaker, and again we see the subject of intercession appearing, which is linked to the malai'ka.

Peace...

Bender

Praise to the Lord that I got replies, for a minute there I just became depressed '(

Salaamun alayka,

Well it took you a long time to study the subject, so you should give us also a bit of time )

Salam brother,

Ah, thank you so much for this. This is what I like about you guys here on Free-Minds, you check the references ;D.

who said I checked the references? I've have the whole book in my mind jedi

Just kidding I only know a couple of the very short chapters -[

Salaam,
Bender

noshirk

Salam to you too bro,

I really appreciate your honesty. Anyway, the concept of Shaf'aa that you mentioned is the way the traditional people understand it. I, through my conclusions, am not stating that Shaf'a is like saying that good pupils can ask the teacher to make bad pupils pass by transfering good answers. Instead, what I'm saying is - based on the core meanings of Shaf'a and the context of the verses using it - that Shaf'a simply refers to a formal form of approval done by the Malaikah for those people who have already gained the acceptance of God. It like saying that really intelligent pupils who got around 95% + marks on a test, greet, welcome, and show their happiness for those students who also passed with good marks but lower, like around 85%, in front of their teacher. You see what I mean?

Salaam bro
i already told i never studied or be interested with this point.
it seems i was wrong.
my understanting was classical intercession.
but sincerely, i know now that i was wrong but i am not convinced by what you said.

651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.
5326 And there are many an angel in the heavens, whose intercession does not benefit in the least, unless God gives permission for whom He wishes and is pleased with him.

it seems that there is a contradition there. No intercession or there is a "but if" somewhere ?
in this case of apparent contradiction, my experience with quran is that source of contradiction is bad misunderstanding somewhere (3-7).

Why some angels will want to intercede for some us ?

After turning the questions in all senses (sorry for my english), i reached this provisory understanding

1- Angels who want to intercede are those of us who "succeded" and get back again the status of angel.
2- those angels can want to interceed in favor of members of their family for example who were astrayed
3- intercession of those angels cannot be accepted in favor of "great transgressor ??f

485 Whoever intercedes with a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes with an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control over all things.
here, for example, we are not in the judgement day. We are in this life and intercession is bad traduction. Associate is a better understanding for me.

694 ?And you have come to Us individually, just as We had created you the first time; and you have left behind you all that We have provided for you; and We do not see your intercessors with you that you used to claim were with you in partnership; all is severed between you, and what you have claimed has abandoned you.?
753 Are they waiting for what it says to come true? On the day it comes true, those who previously forgot it will say ?The messengers of our Lord have come with the truth! Are there any intercessors to intercede for us? Or can we be sent back and we will work differently than what we did?? They have lost their souls and what they have invented has abandoned them.

Here we are facing another apparent contradiction. But it is not.
Transgressors will not find as potential intercessors whose they thought.
They will be probably surprised to see who will be able to intercede in their favor. It is someone who they believed was on a false path. But when they will see him on the good side, they will ask for their intercession (to be associated in same destiny).

3013 And they did not have any intercessors from the partners they set up, and they will reject such partners.
here confirmation. Transgressors will not find who they thought in the position in potential transgressor.

2128 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And, from His concern, they are worried.
here, is seems that God can accepts Shafaa for some people (apparently sincere astrayed people)

4386 And those whom they call on besides Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they fully know.
here we have indication about who can be an intercessor The one who beared witeness of truth.
the formulation in this verse seems to indicate that during this present life, the potiential intercessor in 43-86 was not yet an angel

Peace

Bigmo

First of all the Islamic authorities believe in intercession but they never said that this is to get someone destined to hell to go into paradise. They all agree that it can only work for believers but can help them attain a higher status etc. Kind of extra blessings.

Now intercession has been opposed by the wahhabi or salafi persuasion which presented a problem for Sunni Islam since the wahhabis saw intercession especially to the dead as shirk. This means they have actually accused the whole Sunni orthodoxy of polytheism. The wahhabis understanding of monotheism and polytheism differ from Sunnis. I have looked into this and found that the wahhabi understanding of shirk is a myth that never existed. They made many assumptions that were simply not true.

As long as a person believes that in the end God is the one who control all affairs of humans and that nothing can be granted to a human except what God allows than intercession is OK from a Quranic point of view. If you can ask a person to pray to you when he was alive that doing so when he is dead means you simply believe that a person can have still be communicaed with when he is dead. It is not really a theological issue but more whether this communication can actually takes place or whether God will allow intercession or not.

But if a person says that God can not accept any of our prayers except by seeking an intercessor or believes that only through intercession can God responds to us than this goes against the Quran.

And never offer prayer for anyone of them who dies and do not stand by his grave, surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression?. (Tauba 84)

"Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshippers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realise that they are destined for Hell." 9113

"And lower for them the wings of humility, and kindness, and say, "My Lord, have mercy on them, for they have raised me from infancy." 1724

"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast."1441

?Those who came after them say "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith, and do not place in our hearts any resentment towards those who have believed. Our Lord, You are Benevolent, Merciful." 5910

All this tells us that God wants us to pray for others and even the dead but only for those who we do no know that they died in disbelief and even that was done by Abraham.

unknownuser

You raise a good question...However, if we read those signs of Surah 21 carefully, we find that the meaning fits just as well if we understand "the child" mentioned in 2126 to be the mala'ika. They claimed that Allah has taken a walad (meaning child - which could be male or female). The reply was No, they are not but honored servants (note here how it switches to plural. This style is very common in the Quran).

Elsewhere , we see that the malaika were thought to be female children of Allah. Pay close attention to 37149-153
and also 4315-20 the context is clearly about Malai'ka.

Going back to 2255, this is actually the famous Ayat al-Kursi. The Muslims are fond of buying caligraphic printings of this ayah, in fancy frames, and hanging them on their walls, without ever contemplating what the ayah actually means, or who is the speaker

I believe it is a praise to Allah spoken by Jibreel, on behalf of all the malai'ka

{Allah, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him (among the mala'ika) except with His permission? He knows their present and their future (the malai'ka) and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His kursi encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great}...

Who is the speaker there? If Allah is the speaker, why would He say "There is no god but HE"?? ...."No slumber overtakes Him"??
These questions have troubled me for ages. The most logical explanation is that Jibreel is the speaker, and again we see the subject of intercession appearing, which is linked to the malai'ka.

Peace...

Oh, now I see, thanks for clarifying that Walad can be both a male or female, as I had the notion that its limited to male. This means that we can conclude that at 2125 the topic of the messengers have ended, and from 2126 a new topic mentioning people who say that Malaikah are the Walad of God. I believe that now there is no issue regarding who is carrying out Shaf'a, I think we all agree that they are the Malaikah. On the other hand, what are 'Malaikah' exactly is another topic. Thanks for the assistance.

Salam

Salaamun alayka,

Well it took you a long time to study the subject, so you should give us also a bit of time )

who said I checked the references? I've have the whole book in my mind jedi

Just kidding I only know a couple of the very short chapters -[

Salaam,
Bender

Salamun Alayka,

Yeah, I realized that I should be more patient. And do you know those couple of the very short chapters in English?