An article on: Intercession and Transfer of deeds
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Praise to the Lord that I got replies, for a minute there I just became depressed '(
Salaamun alayka,
Well it took you a long time to study the subject, so you should give us also a bit of time )
Salam brother,
Ah, thank you so much for this. This is what I like about you guys here on Free-Minds, you check the references ;D.
who said I checked the references? I've have the whole book in my mind jedi
Just kidding I only know a couple of the very short chapters -[
Salaam,
Bender -
Salam to you too bro,
I really appreciate your honesty. Anyway, the concept of Shaf'aa that you mentioned is the way the traditional people understand it. I, through my conclusions, am not stating that Shaf'a is like saying that good pupils can ask the teacher to make bad pupils pass by transfering good answers. Instead, what I'm saying is - based on the core meanings of Shaf'a and the context of the verses using it - that Shaf'a simply refers to a formal form of approval done by the Malaikah for those people who have already gained the acceptance of God. It like saying that really intelligent pupils who got around 95% + marks on a test, greet, welcome, and show their happiness for those students who also passed with good marks but lower, like around 85%, in front of their teacher. You see what I mean?
Salaam bro
i already told i never studied or be interested with this point.
it seems i was wrong.
my understanting was classical intercession.
but sincerely, i know now that i was wrong but i am not convinced by what you said.651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.
5326 And there are many an angel in the heavens, whose intercession does not benefit in the least, unless God gives permission for whom He wishes and is pleased with him.it seems that there is a contradition there. No intercession or there is a "but if" somewhere ?
in this case of apparent contradiction, my experience with quran is that source of contradiction is bad misunderstanding somewhere (3-7).Why some angels will want to intercede for some us ?
After turning the questions in all senses (sorry for my english), i reached this provisory understanding
1- Angels who want to intercede are those of us who "succeded" and get back again the status of angel.
2- those angels can want to interceed in favor of members of their family for example who were astrayed
3- intercession of those angels cannot be accepted in favor of "great transgressor ??f485 Whoever intercedes with a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes with an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control over all things.
here, for example, we are not in the judgement day. We are in this life and intercession is bad traduction. Associate is a better understanding for me.694 ?And you have come to Us individually, just as We had created you the first time; and you have left behind you all that We have provided for you; and We do not see your intercessors with you that you used to claim were with you in partnership; all is severed between you, and what you have claimed has abandoned you.?
753 Are they waiting for what it says to come true? On the day it comes true, those who previously forgot it will say ?The messengers of our Lord have come with the truth! Are there any intercessors to intercede for us? Or can we be sent back and we will work differently than what we did?? They have lost their souls and what they have invented has abandoned them.Here we are facing another apparent contradiction. But it is not.
Transgressors will not find as potential intercessors whose they thought.
They will be probably surprised to see who will be able to intercede in their favor. It is someone who they believed was on a false path. But when they will see him on the good side, they will ask for their intercession (to be associated in same destiny).3013 And they did not have any intercessors from the partners they set up, and they will reject such partners.
here confirmation. Transgressors will not find who they thought in the position in potential transgressor.2128 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And, from His concern, they are worried.
here, is seems that God can accepts Shafaa for some people (apparently sincere astrayed people)4386 And those whom they call on besides Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they fully know.
here we have indication about who can be an intercessor The one who beared witeness of truth.
the formulation in this verse seems to indicate that during this present life, the potiential intercessor in 43-86 was not yet an angelPeace
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First of all the Islamic authorities believe in intercession but they never said that this is to get someone destined to hell to go into paradise. They all agree that it can only work for believers but can help them attain a higher status etc. Kind of extra blessings.
Now intercession has been opposed by the wahhabi or salafi persuasion which presented a problem for Sunni Islam since the wahhabis saw intercession especially to the dead as shirk. This means they have actually accused the whole Sunni orthodoxy of polytheism. The wahhabis understanding of monotheism and polytheism differ from Sunnis. I have looked into this and found that the wahhabi understanding of shirk is a myth that never existed. They made many assumptions that were simply not true.
As long as a person believes that in the end God is the one who control all affairs of humans and that nothing can be granted to a human except what God allows than intercession is OK from a Quranic point of view. If you can ask a person to pray to you when he was alive that doing so when he is dead means you simply believe that a person can have still be communicaed with when he is dead. It is not really a theological issue but more whether this communication can actually takes place or whether God will allow intercession or not.
But if a person says that God can not accept any of our prayers except by seeking an intercessor or believes that only through intercession can God responds to us than this goes against the Quran.
And never offer prayer for anyone of them who dies and do not stand by his grave, surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression?. (Tauba 84)
"Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshippers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realise that they are destined for Hell." 9113
"And lower for them the wings of humility, and kindness, and say, "My Lord, have mercy on them, for they have raised me from infancy." 1724
"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast."1441
"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast."1441
?Those who came after them say "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith, and do not place in our hearts any resentment towards those who have believed. Our Lord, You are Benevolent, Merciful." 5910
All this tells us that God wants us to pray for others and even the dead but only for those who we do no know that they died in disbelief and even that was done by Abraham.
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You raise a good question...However, if we read those signs of Surah 21 carefully, we find that the meaning fits just as well if we understand "the child" mentioned in 2126 to be the mala'ika. They claimed that Allah has taken a walad (meaning child - which could be male or female). The reply was No, they are not but honored servants (note here how it switches to plural. This style is very common in the Quran).
Elsewhere , we see that the malaika were thought to be female children of Allah. Pay close attention to 37149-153
and also 4315-20 the context is clearly about Malai'ka.Going back to 2255, this is actually the famous Ayat al-Kursi. The Muslims are fond of buying caligraphic printings of this ayah, in fancy frames, and hanging them on their walls, without ever contemplating what the ayah actually means, or who is the speaker
I believe it is a praise to Allah spoken by Jibreel, on behalf of all the malai'ka
{Allah, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him (among the mala'ika) except with His permission? He knows their present and their future (the malai'ka) and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His kursi encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great}...
Who is the speaker there? If Allah is the speaker, why would He say "There is no god but HE"?? ...."No slumber overtakes Him"??
These questions have troubled me for ages. The most logical explanation is that Jibreel is the speaker, and again we see the subject of intercession appearing, which is linked to the malai'ka.Peace...
Oh, now I see, thanks for clarifying that Walad can be both a male or female, as I had the notion that its limited to male. This means that we can conclude that at 2125 the topic of the messengers have ended, and from 2126 a new topic mentioning people who say that Malaikah are the Walad of God. I believe that now there is no issue regarding who is carrying out Shaf'a, I think we all agree that they are the Malaikah. On the other hand, what are 'Malaikah' exactly is another topic. Thanks for the assistance.
Salam
Salaamun alayka,
Well it took you a long time to study the subject, so you should give us also a bit of time )
who said I checked the references? I've have the whole book in my mind jedi
Just kidding I only know a couple of the very short chapters -[
Salaam,
BenderSalamun Alayka,
Yeah, I realized that I should be more patient. And do you know those couple of the very short chapters in English?
Salam
Salaam bro
i already told i never studied or be interested with this point.
it seems i was wrong.
my understanting was classical intercession.
but sincerely, i know now that i was wrong but i am not convinced by what you said.651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.
5326 And there are many an angel in the heavens, whose intercession does not benefit in the least, unless God gives permission for whom He wishes and is pleased with him.it seems that there is a contradition there. No intercession or there is a "but if" somewhere ?
in this case of apparent contradiction, my experience with quran is that source of contradiction is bad misunderstanding somewhere (3-7).Why some angels will want to intercede for some us ?
After turning the questions in all senses (sorry for my english), i reached this provisory understanding
1- Angels who want to intercede are those of us who "succeded" and get back again the status of angel.
2- those angels can want to interceed in favor of members of their family for example who were astrayed
3- intercession of those angels cannot be accepted in favor of "great transgressor ??f485 Whoever intercedes with a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes with an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control over all things.
here, for example, we are not in the judgement day. We are in this life and intercession is bad traduction. Associate is a better understanding for me.694 ?And you have come to Us individually, just as We had created you the first time; and you have left behind you all that We have provided for you; and We do not see your intercessors with you that you used to claim were with you in partnership; all is severed between you, and what you have claimed has abandoned you.?
753 Are they waiting for what it says to come true? On the day it comes true, those who previously forgot it will say ?The messengers of our Lord have come with the truth! Are there any intercessors to intercede for us? Or can we be sent back and we will work differently than what we did?? They have lost their souls and what they have invented has abandoned them.Here we are facing another apparent contradiction. But it is not.
Transgressors will not find as potential intercessors whose they thought.
They will be probably surprised to see who will be able to intercede in their favor. It is someone who they believed was on a false path. But when they will see him on the good side, they will ask for their intercession (to be associated in same destiny).3013 And they did not have any intercessors from the partners they set up, and they will reject such partners.
here confirmation. Transgressors will not find who they thought in the position in potential transgressor.2128 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And, from His concern, they are worried.
here, is seems that God can accepts Shafaa for some people (apparently sincere astrayed people)4386 And those whom they call on besides Him do not possess any intercession; except those who bear witness to the truth, and they fully know.
here we have indication about who can be an intercessor The one who beared witeness of truth.
the formulation in this verse seems to indicate that during this present life, the potiential intercessor in 43-86 was not yet an angelPeace
Salam bro,
Bro, stop worrying about your English >( Its not that bad as you think . Though at times your spelling is slightly off, we all still are able to understand what you mean, so don't apologize so much, okay?
Anyway, first of all, I agree with you when you say that 'intercession' is a bad translation for 'Shafa'at'. I believe words that give a better representation of this word, like you stated, would be 'Association', 'Aid', 'Help', 'Adjoining', 'Pairing', etc.
Coming to the apparent contradictions, I think we just have to look much deeper into the verses, and everything will be clear. 651 states that they will not find any Shaf'i other than God. This makes sense, that there will be no independent Shaf'i other than God, and the only Shaf'i on that day will be God. However, God will carry out the act of Shaf'at by his angels based on 5326. Make sense?
Other than that, I agree with what you said. The transgressors will realize that they were just assuming that someone will do Shaf?a for them, although in reality that will not be the case because they were wrongdoers.
First of all the Islamic authorities believe in intercession but they never said that this is to get someone destined to hell to go into paradise. They all agree that it can only work for believers but can help them attain a higher status etc. Kind of extra blessings.
Now intercession has been opposed by the wahhabi or salafi persuasion which presented a problem for Sunni Islam since the wahhabis saw intercession especially to the dead as shirk. This means they have actually accused the whole Sunni orthodoxy of polytheism. The wahhabis understanding of monotheism and polytheism differ from Sunnis. I have looked into this and found that the wahhabi understanding of shirk is a myth that never existed. They made many assumptions that were simply not true.
As long as a person believes that in the end God is the one who control all affairs of humans and that nothing can be granted to a human except what God allows than intercession is OK from a Quranic point of view. If you can ask a person to pray to you when he was alive that doing so when he is dead means you simply believe that a person can have still be communicaed with when he is dead. It is not really a theological issue but more whether this communication can actually takes place or whether God will allow intercession or not.
But if a person says that God can not accept any of our prayers except by seeking an intercessor or believes that only through intercession can God responds to us than this goes against the Quran.
And never offer prayer for anyone of them who dies and do not stand by his grave, surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression?. (Tauba 84)
"Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshippers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realise that they are destined for Hell." 9113
"And lower for them the wings of humility, and kindness, and say, "My Lord, have mercy on them, for they have raised me from infancy." 1724
"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast."1441
"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast."1441
?Those who came after them say "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith, and do not place in our hearts any resentment towards those who have believed. Our Lord, You are Benevolent, Merciful." 5910
All this tells us that God wants us to pray for others and even the dead but only for those who we do no know that they died in disbelief and even that was done by Abraham.
Salamun Alayk,
Thanks a lot for the input.
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salam bro
651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.
my understanding about 6-51 is that true "Muslims" knows that they don't have to count on Sahfaa. Read carefully. That doesn't mean there will not be shafaa.
my actual understanding is that few shafaa is possible for brother, spouses childs or something like that of a "Good Muslim ", if the brother, spouses childs or something like that are not in the black list of unforgivenable deeds.
Please note that i think that mushrikouns are whose God is angry with them and that "simple" kafiroun are astrayed people.
Since God is saying that Shirk is the only thing not forgiveable, it means that he can forgive for others "things" (1-7).
Simple kafir not believe and is not waiting for a shafaa.i know it is a complex idea beyond my english langage capacities but
Believing on shafaa means to be from whose who will not be able to benefciate from it (or at least, if safaa there is, not from those who were expected).In fact, the idea is very complex to explain for me because it implies many others understanding i have (who are the unforgiveable, what to do with rejectors who did good things ...)
Thanks you bro to have pointed this subject. You are the first one i see who spoke about this with verses. i didn't noticed before how many verses are speaking about this subject.
Peace
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salam bro
651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.
my understanding about 6-51 is that true "Muslims" knows that they don't have to count on Sahfaa. Read carefully. That doesn't mean there will not be shafaa.
my actual understanding is that few shafaa is possible for brother, spouses childs or something like that of a "Good Muslim ", if the brother, spouses childs or something like that are not in the black list of unforgivenable deeds.
Please note that i think that mushrikouns are whose God is angry with them and that "simple" kafiroun are astrayed people.
Since God is saying that Shirk is the only thing not forgiveable, it means that he can forgive for others "things" (1-7).
Simple kafir not believe and is not waiting for a shafaa.i know it is a complex idea beyond my english langage capacities but
Believing on shafaa means to be from whose who will not be able to benefciate from it (or at least, if safaa there is, not from those who were expected).In fact, the idea is very complex to explain for me because it implies many others understanding i have (who are the unforgiveable, what to do with rejectors who did good things ...)
Salam bro,
Hmmm...well, then you should improve your English language capacities, and then maybe you could write a book or something to explain your other understandings D.
Thanks you bro to have pointed this subject. You are the first one i see who spoke about this with verses. i didn't noticed before how many verses are speaking about this subject.
You're welcome. That's what we're here for, to make other notice things they didn't notice before ;D.
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Salam bro
before writing book, i improved my english very much since i am in this forumi like your pseudo, bro.
i considerer also myself a fallen angel who have to obtain forgivess in order to go back to the rahm of the rahimas a fallen angel jedi, i advice you to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0Peace
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Salam bro
before writing book, i improved my english very much since i am in this forumi like your pseudo, bro.
i considerer also myself a fallen angel who have to obtain forgivess in order to go back to the rahm of the rahimas a fallen angel jedi, i advice you to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0Peace
Salam bro,
Good to hear that your English is improving, with the will of the God, hopefully one day you'll master it ). Thanks for liking my pseudo, the reason why I chose this is because, at first, I was a strict Sunni, and then I have adopted understanding the Quran through the Quran alone ideology. This means, that previously, in the eyes of the Sunni scholars, I was an angel, but then when I left Sunnism, in their eyes, I have now become a devil. Hence, I named myself Fallen Angel. It is a sarcastic remark to the Sunnis. Although the way you understand it is also amazing, that we were all like angels at first, but the day we started committing sin, we 'fall' from the grace of being mistake-free to a subject of sin. Its amazing how two words can be interpreted so deeply, isn't it?
Thanks for the link, I remember going to it a few weeks ago, but what you wrote was very long, hence I couldn't focus much on it, hopefully I'll read it again.
Peace
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Salam brother Bigmo,
I re-read your post, and realized that you said 'First of all the Islamic authorities believe in intercession but they never said that this is to get someone destined to hell to go into paradise.', I disagree. Visit this link http//islamqa.info/en/ref/26259 I believe they clearly say that even those destined for hell can come to paradise. What do you think?
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Salam bro,
Good to hear that your English is improving, with the will of the God, hopefully one day you'll master it ). Thanks for liking my pseudo, the reason why I chose this is because, at first, I was a strict Sunni, and then I have adopted understanding the Quran through the Quran alone ideology. This means, that previously, in the eyes of the Sunni scholars, I was an angel, but then when I left Sunnism, in their eyes, I have now become a devil. Hence, I named myself Fallen Angel. It is a sarcastic remark to the Sunnis. Although the way you understand it is also amazing, that we were all like angels at first, but the day we started committing sin, we 'fall' from the grace of being mistake-free to a subject of sin. Its amazing how two words can be interpreted so deeply, isn't it?
Thanks for the link, I remember going to it a few weeks ago, but what you wrote was very long, hence I couldn't focus much on it, hopefully I'll read it again.
Peace
3 ? The intercession of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for his uncle Abu Taalib
It was narrated from Abu Sa?eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) that mention was made of his uncle Abu Taalib in the presence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, ?Perhaps my intercession will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will be placed in a shallow part of the Fire which will come up to his ankles and cause his brains to boil.? (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1408; Muslim, 360).
So this is what they claim the most that can be done for a non believer. There is intercession for believers according to Sunni Islam who are in hell or entering hell because Sunni Islam believes a person can be punished for a while and then leave hell.
Many Quranist do not believe that a person can leave hell once he enters.
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Salaam,
Hell seems to be an eternal experience, but I think the Quranic description is allegorical. It may be a horrible world with little luxury, worthless food/ water and so on, but I doubt, although I do not claim to know, that you just burn and burn for eternity.
Anyway, I doubt anyone would like to end up in Hell, but I have my doubts God would not expose someone for eternal pain without any relief. I think it is an allegory for a world with poor living conditions and low expectations of standard. Maybe the remnants of the old destroyed world?
Well, it does not matter, just a reason to stay away, aye? But still interesting to think about.
Since all the above was off-topic, I will take some relevant things too
Intercession is not possible, except if it is according to His Will.
No being except God has any power of intercession.
If someone can intercede, it is because God wanted/allowed it.
An angel would only intercede if permitted by God, otherwise it would be like the downfall of Satan.
We learn from the Quran that it is unrighteous to ask God to forgive those who are destined for Hell, as in the case of Noah and his son or Abraham and his father. Or rather question God?s judgment.
I feel that you can pray that God will offer someone guidance, but we should not whine if the person is not being blessed.
Consider that, why would, in theory, Muhammad intercede for someone he never knew and try God's temper, and whom is destined for Hell?
Transfer of deeds
Your deeds are your deeds, your neighbor's deeds are your neighbor's deeds. You will not be punished for something your father did and your father will not be punished for your doings. If your father was a righteous man but you are not, then you will not benefit from his righteousness.
God bless you
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Salaam Everyone
There is a traditional view which exists among present day Muslims regarding the concept of intercession which is based on hadith literature. This view is not supported by the Quran. The Quran repeatedly holds each individual responsible for his or her own conduct.
The true concept of God who is running the affairs of the universe is only contained in the Quran, as it is given by god Himself to mankind. One of the attributes frequently mentioned by god about himself is 'Aziz-ul-Hakeem' which is translated as the Exalted in Power, the Wise. The very concept of intercession means to give someone advantage which one does not deserve and is against the concept of justice. God the Wise can never be expected to do that. This concept if accepted, brings down the whole building block of 'din' as presented in the Quran by god. We all know that a person who accepts intercession in worldly life can never expected to deliver justice.
And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" 280
And the record will be placed , and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present . And your Lord does injustice to no one. 1849
Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn. That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? 683539
Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 6681
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" Noah said "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" S. 1145-47
That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109
Ibraheem (pbuh) is the only prophet permitted to ask for forgiveness for his Mushrik father in the Book.
There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination. 604
Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and the believers the Day the account is established." 1441
Peace
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Salaam Am,
Thanks for clarifying that about Abraham and his father. God may have liked that Abraham kept his promise to his father and thus forgiven him without being upset. Abraham also seems to have been in high favor in God?s eyes, which can be easily understood from the Quranic discourse. And there is little wonder why, he was probably better than most of us.
I am always a bit afraid of committing idol worship because Abraham impresses me so, but I never put him before or close to rank with God. Anyway, there is an example with all prophets, I do not disregard anyone of them. But they are no lords, intercessors or "mini-gods". They just help me with my way of living.
Also I would like to clarify that I did mean that Hell is eternal, what I tried to convey is that I think the Quranic description is allegorical and the Hell-world is just a miserable place with a bad climate, food, drink, scenery and you will always be sweating or feel cold, never feel comfortable. Not a place anyone would like to be.
God bless you
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3 ? The intercession of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for his uncle Abu Taalib
It was narrated from Abu Sa?eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) that mention was made of his uncle Abu Taalib in the presence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, ?Perhaps my intercession will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will be placed in a shallow part of the Fire which will come up to his ankles and cause his brains to boil.? (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1408; Muslim, 360).
So this is what they claim the most that can be done for a non believer. There is intercession for believers according to Sunni Islam who are in hell or entering hell because Sunni Islam believes a person can be punished for a while and then leave hell.
Many Quranist do not believe that a person can leave hell once he enters.
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Salaam,
Hell seems to be an eternal experience, but I think the Quranic description is allegorical. It may be a horrible world with little luxury, worthless food/ water and so on, but I doubt, although I do not claim to know, that you just burn and burn for eternity.
Anyway, I doubt anyone would like to end up in Hell, but I have my doubts God would not expose someone for eternal pain without any relief. I think it is an allegory for a world with poor living conditions and low expectations of standard. Maybe the remnants of the old destroyed world?
Well, it does not matter, just a reason to stay away, aye? But still interesting to think about.
Since all the above was off-topic, I will take some relevant things too
Intercession is not possible, except if it is according to His Will.
No being except God has any power of intercession.
If someone can intercede, it is because God wanted/allowed it.
An angel would only intercede if permitted by God, otherwise it would be like the downfall of Satan.
We learn from the Quran that it is unrighteous to ask God to forgive those who are destined for Hell, as in the case of Noah and his son or Abraham and his father. Or rather question God?s judgment.
I feel that you can pray that God will offer someone guidance, but we should not whine if the person is not being blessed.
Consider that, why would, in theory, Muhammad intercede for someone he never knew and try God's temper, and whom is destined for Hell?
Transfer of deeds
Your deeds are your deeds, your neighbor's deeds are your neighbor's deeds. You will not be punished for something your father did and your father will not be punished for your doings. If your father was a righteous man but you are not, then you will not benefit from his righteousness.
God bless you
Peace,
Cool summary bro
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Salaam,
Thank God for that, He is the Doer of everything )
God bless you
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Salaam Everyone
There is a traditional view which exists among present day Muslims regarding the concept of intercession which is based on hadith literature. This view is not supported by the Quran. The Quran repeatedly holds each individual responsible for his or her own conduct.
The true concept of God who is running the affairs of the universe is only contained in the Quran, as it is given by god Himself to mankind. One of the attributes frequently mentioned by god about himself is 'Aziz-ul-Hakeem' which is translated as the Exalted in Power, the Wise. The very concept of intercession means to give someone advantage which one does not deserve and is against the concept of justice. God the Wise can never be expected to do that. This concept if accepted, brings down the whole building block of 'din' as presented in the Quran by god. We all know that a person who accepts intercession in worldly life can never expected to deliver justice.
And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" 280
And the record will be placed , and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present . And your Lord does injustice to no one. 1849
Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn. That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? 683539
Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 6681
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" Noah said "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" S. 1145-47
That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109
Ibraheem (pbuh) is the only prophet permitted to ask for forgiveness for his Mushrik father in the Book.
There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination. 604
Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and the believers the Day the account is established." 1441
Peace
Salaam,
Thanks for the verses, and sharing your thoughts. I agree with you; if intercession exists the way the traditional Muslims think, then that would definitely be unjust. One thing however, is that, I feel the translation you provided of 20109 is slightly off. This is what I have provided in my article
Ch. 20 Verse 109 On that day, Shafa?at (Intercession) will not benefit anyone other than him whom has granted permission the Merciful, and accepts for him a word.
See the bold part? It is not 'Accepted his word', but more like 'Accepted for him a word'. This changes the meaning to quite some extent. This is based upon my knowledge of the prefixed preposition 'lm' at the beginning of the pronoun 'him'.
Salaam Everyone
There is a traditional view which exists among present day Muslims regarding the concept of intercession which is based on hadith literature. This view is not supported by the Quran. The Quran repeatedly holds each individual responsible for his or her own conduct.
The true concept of God who is running the affairs of the universe is only contained in the Quran, as it is given by god Himself to mankind. One of the attributes frequently mentioned by god about himself is 'Aziz-ul-Hakeem' which is translated as the Exalted in Power, the Wise. The very concept of intercession means to give someone advantage which one does not deserve and is against the concept of justice. God the Wise can never be expected to do that. This concept if accepted, brings down the whole building block of 'din' as presented in the Quran by god. We all know that a person who accepts intercession in worldly life can never expected to deliver justice.
And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" 280
And the record will be placed , and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present . And your Lord does injustice to no one. 1849
Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn. That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? 683539
Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 6681
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" Noah said "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" S. 1145-47
That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109
Ibraheem (pbuh) is the only prophet permitted to ask for forgiveness for his Mushrik father in the Book.
There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination. 604
Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and the believers the Day the account is established." 1441
Peace
Salaam,
Thanks for the verses, and sharing your thoughts. I agree with you; if intercession exists the way the traditional Muslims think, then that would definitely be unjust. One thing however, is that, I feel the translation you provided of 20109 is slightly off. This is what I have provided in my article
Ch. 20 Verse 109 On that day, Shafa?at (Intercession) will not benefit anyone other than him whom has granted permission the Merciful, and accepts for him a word.
See the bold part? It is not 'Accepted his word', but more like 'Accepted for him a word'. This changes the meaning to quite some extent. This is based upon my knowledge of the prefixed preposition 'lm' at the beginning of the pronoun 'him'.
-
Salaam,
Thanks for the verses, and sharing your thoughts. I agree with you; if intercession exists the way the traditional Muslims think, then that would definitely be unjust. One thing however, is that, I feel the translation you provided of 20109 is slightly off. This is what I have provided in my article
Ch. 20 Verse 109 On that day, Shafa?at (Intercession) will not benefit anyone other than him whom has granted permission the Merciful, and accepts for him a word.
See the bold part? It is not 'Accepted his word', but more like 'Accepted for him a word'. This changes the meaning to quite some extent. This is based upon my knowledge of the prefixed preposition 'lm' at the beginning of the pronoun 'him'.
Salaam,Thanks for the verses, and sharing your thoughts. I agree with you; if intercession exists the way the traditional Muslims think, then that would definitely be unjust. One thing however, is that, I feel the translation you provided of 20109 is slightly off. This is what I have provided in my article
Ch. 20 Verse 109 On that day, Shafa?at (Intercession) will not benefit anyone other than him whom has granted permission the Merciful, and accepts for him a word.
See the bold part? It is not 'Accepted his word', but more like 'Accepted for him a word'. This changes the meaning to quite some extent. This is based upon my knowledge of the prefixed preposition 'lm' at the beginning of the pronoun 'him'.
Salaam brother,
Thanks for your feed back.
In the ayat 20109 Allah is referring to the (word,speech), which He is (accepts)
Sahih International
That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109
Yusuf Ali
On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. 20109There is nothing wrong with the above translations, in relation to what Allah is referring as an "acceptable word", Allah explains the "word" in the ayat below
Sahih International
indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. 6940
Yusuf Ali
That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger; 6940I hope it clarifies any misunderstanding.
Peace
-
Salaam brother,
Thanks for your feed back.
In the ayat 20109 Allah is referring to the (word,speech), which He is (accepts)
Sahih International
That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109
Yusuf Ali
On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. 20109There is nothing wrong with the above translations, in relation to what Allah is referring as an "acceptable word", Allah explains the "word" in the ayat below
Sahih International
indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. 6940
Yusuf Ali
That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger; 6940I hope it clarifies any misunderstanding.
Peace
Salam,
I just realized the '' in the Sahih International translation, how stupid of me to not notice it before, for now it makes sense.
Sorry for any disturbance.
Peace
-
Salam,
I just realized the '' in the Sahih International translation, how stupid of me to not notice it before, for now it makes sense.
Sorry for any disturbance.
Peace
Salaam Brother
In my opinion, it was a good question from you, which clarified the things further for everyone else here. I thank you for your valuable input.
Peace