An article on: Intercession and Transfer of deeds

noshirk

salam bro

651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.

my understanding about 6-51 is that true "Muslims" knows that they don't have to count on Sahfaa. Read carefully. That doesn't mean there will not be shafaa.

my actual understanding is that few shafaa is possible for brother, spouses childs or something like that of a "Good Muslim ", if the brother, spouses childs or something like that are not in the black list of unforgivenable deeds.

Please note that i think that mushrikouns are whose God is angry with them and that "simple" kafiroun are astrayed people.
Since God is saying that Shirk is the only thing not forgiveable, it means that he can forgive for others "things" (1-7).
Simple kafir not believe and is not waiting for a shafaa.

i know it is a complex idea beyond my english langage capacities but
Believing on shafaa means to be from whose who will not be able to benefciate from it (or at least, if safaa there is, not from those who were expected).

In fact, the idea is very complex to explain for me because it implies many others understanding i have (who are the unforgiveable, what to do with rejectors who did good things ...)

Thanks you bro to have pointed this subject. You are the first one i see who spoke about this with verses. i didn't noticed before how many verses are speaking about this subject.

Peace

unknownuser

salam bro

651 And warn with it those who realize that they will be gathered to their Lord; they do not have besides Him any ally nor intercessor (Shafii); perhaps they will be righteous.

my understanding about 6-51 is that true "Muslims" knows that they don't have to count on Sahfaa. Read carefully. That doesn't mean there will not be shafaa.

my actual understanding is that few shafaa is possible for brother, spouses childs or something like that of a "Good Muslim ", if the brother, spouses childs or something like that are not in the black list of unforgivenable deeds.

Please note that i think that mushrikouns are whose God is angry with them and that "simple" kafiroun are astrayed people.
Since God is saying that Shirk is the only thing not forgiveable, it means that he can forgive for others "things" (1-7).
Simple kafir not believe and is not waiting for a shafaa.

i know it is a complex idea beyond my english langage capacities but
Believing on shafaa means to be from whose who will not be able to benefciate from it (or at least, if safaa there is, not from those who were expected).

In fact, the idea is very complex to explain for me because it implies many others understanding i have (who are the unforgiveable, what to do with rejectors who did good things ...)

Salam bro,

Hmmm...well, then you should improve your English language capacities, and then maybe you could write a book or something to explain your other understandings D.

Thanks you bro to have pointed this subject. You are the first one i see who spoke about this with verses. i didn't noticed before how many verses are speaking about this subject.

You're welcome. That's what we're here for, to make other notice things they didn't notice before ;D.

noshirk

Salam bro
before writing book, i improved my english very much since i am in this forum

i like your pseudo, bro.
i considerer also myself a fallen angel who have to obtain forgivess in order to go back to the rahm of the rahim

as a fallen angel jedi, i advice you to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0

Peace

unknownuser

Salam bro
before writing book, i improved my english very much since i am in this forum

i like your pseudo, bro.
i considerer also myself a fallen angel who have to obtain forgivess in order to go back to the rahm of the rahim

as a fallen angel jedi, i advice you to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0

Peace

Salam bro,

Good to hear that your English is improving, with the will of the God, hopefully one day you'll master it ). Thanks for liking my pseudo, the reason why I chose this is because, at first, I was a strict Sunni, and then I have adopted understanding the Quran through the Quran alone ideology. This means, that previously, in the eyes of the Sunni scholars, I was an angel, but then when I left Sunnism, in their eyes, I have now become a devil. Hence, I named myself Fallen Angel. It is a sarcastic remark to the Sunnis. Although the way you understand it is also amazing, that we were all like angels at first, but the day we started committing sin, we 'fall' from the grace of being mistake-free to a subject of sin. Its amazing how two words can be interpreted so deeply, isn't it?

Thanks for the link, I remember going to it a few weeks ago, but what you wrote was very long, hence I couldn't focus much on it, hopefully I'll read it again.

Peace

unknownuser

Salam brother Bigmo,

I re-read your post, and realized that you said 'First of all the Islamic authorities believe in intercession but they never said that this is to get someone destined to hell to go into paradise.', I disagree. Visit this link http//islamqa.info/en/ref/26259 I believe they clearly say that even those destined for hell can come to paradise. What do you think?

Bigmo

Salam bro,

Good to hear that your English is improving, with the will of the God, hopefully one day you'll master it ). Thanks for liking my pseudo, the reason why I chose this is because, at first, I was a strict Sunni, and then I have adopted understanding the Quran through the Quran alone ideology. This means, that previously, in the eyes of the Sunni scholars, I was an angel, but then when I left Sunnism, in their eyes, I have now become a devil. Hence, I named myself Fallen Angel. It is a sarcastic remark to the Sunnis. Although the way you understand it is also amazing, that we were all like angels at first, but the day we started committing sin, we 'fall' from the grace of being mistake-free to a subject of sin. Its amazing how two words can be interpreted so deeply, isn't it?

Thanks for the link, I remember going to it a few weeks ago, but what you wrote was very long, hence I couldn't focus much on it, hopefully I'll read it again.

Peace

3 ? The intercession of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for his uncle Abu Taalib

It was narrated from Abu Sa?eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) that mention was made of his uncle Abu Taalib in the presence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, ?Perhaps my intercession will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will be placed in a shallow part of the Fire which will come up to his ankles and cause his brains to boil.? (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1408; Muslim, 360).

So this is what they claim the most that can be done for a non believer. There is intercession for believers according to Sunni Islam who are in hell or entering hell because Sunni Islam believes a person can be punished for a while and then leave hell.

Many Quranist do not believe that a person can leave hell once he enters.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

Hell seems to be an eternal experience, but I think the Quranic description is allegorical. It may be a horrible world with little luxury, worthless food/ water and so on, but I doubt, although I do not claim to know, that you just burn and burn for eternity.

Anyway, I doubt anyone would like to end up in Hell, but I have my doubts God would not expose someone for eternal pain without any relief. I think it is an allegory for a world with poor living conditions and low expectations of standard. Maybe the remnants of the old destroyed world?

Well, it does not matter, just a reason to stay away, aye? But still interesting to think about.

Since all the above was off-topic, I will take some relevant things too

Intercession is not possible, except if it is according to His Will.

No being except God has any power of intercession.

If someone can intercede, it is because God wanted/allowed it.

An angel would only intercede if permitted by God, otherwise it would be like the downfall of Satan.

We learn from the Quran that it is unrighteous to ask God to forgive those who are destined for Hell, as in the case of Noah and his son or Abraham and his father. Or rather question God?s judgment.

I feel that you can pray that God will offer someone guidance, but we should not whine if the person is not being blessed.

Consider that, why would, in theory, Muhammad intercede for someone he never knew and try God's temper, and whom is destined for Hell?

Transfer of deeds

Your deeds are your deeds, your neighbor's deeds are your neighbor's deeds. You will not be punished for something your father did and your father will not be punished for your doings. If your father was a righteous man but you are not, then you will not benefit from his righteousness.

God bless you

Awaal_Muslim

Salaam Everyone

There is a traditional view which exists among present day Muslims regarding the concept of intercession which is based on hadith literature. This view is not supported by the Quran. The Quran repeatedly holds each individual responsible for his or her own conduct.

The true concept of God who is running the affairs of the universe is only contained in the Quran, as it is given by god Himself to mankind. One of the attributes frequently mentioned by god about himself is 'Aziz-ul-Hakeem' which is translated as the Exalted in Power, the Wise. The very concept of intercession means to give someone advantage which one does not deserve and is against the concept of justice. God the Wise can never be expected to do that. This concept if accepted, brings down the whole building block of 'din' as presented in the Quran by god. We all know that a person who accepts intercession in worldly life can never expected to deliver justice.

And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" 280

And the record will be placed , and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present . And your Lord does injustice to no one. 1849

Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn. That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? 683539

Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 6681

And Noah called upon his Lord, and said "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" Noah said "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" S. 1145-47

That Day, no intercession will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20109

Ibraheem (pbuh) is the only prophet permitted to ask for forgiveness for his Mushrik father in the Book.

There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination. 604

Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and the believers the Day the account is established." 1441

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam Am,

Thanks for clarifying that about Abraham and his father. God may have liked that Abraham kept his promise to his father and thus forgiven him without being upset. Abraham also seems to have been in high favor in God?s eyes, which can be easily understood from the Quranic discourse. And there is little wonder why, he was probably better than most of us.

I am always a bit afraid of committing idol worship because Abraham impresses me so, but I never put him before or close to rank with God. Anyway, there is an example with all prophets, I do not disregard anyone of them. But they are no lords, intercessors or "mini-gods". They just help me with my way of living.

Also I would like to clarify that I did mean that Hell is eternal, what I tried to convey is that I think the Quranic description is allegorical and the Hell-world is just a miserable place with a bad climate, food, drink, scenery and you will always be sweating or feel cold, never feel comfortable. Not a place anyone would like to be.

God bless you

unknownuser

3 ? The intercession of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for his uncle Abu Taalib

It was narrated from Abu Sa?eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) that mention was made of his uncle Abu Taalib in the presence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, ?Perhaps my intercession will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will be placed in a shallow part of the Fire which will come up to his ankles and cause his brains to boil.? (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1408; Muslim, 360).

So this is what they claim the most that can be done for a non believer. There is intercession for believers according to Sunni Islam who are in hell or entering hell because Sunni Islam believes a person can be punished for a while and then leave hell.

Many Quranist do not believe that a person can leave hell once he enters.

unknownuser

Salaam,

Hell seems to be an eternal experience, but I think the Quranic description is allegorical. It may be a horrible world with little luxury, worthless food/ water and so on, but I doubt, although I do not claim to know, that you just burn and burn for eternity.

Anyway, I doubt anyone would like to end up in Hell, but I have my doubts God would not expose someone for eternal pain without any relief. I think it is an allegory for a world with poor living conditions and low expectations of standard. Maybe the remnants of the old destroyed world?

Well, it does not matter, just a reason to stay away, aye? But still interesting to think about.

Since all the above was off-topic, I will take some relevant things too

Intercession is not possible, except if it is according to His Will.

No being except God has any power of intercession.

If someone can intercede, it is because God wanted/allowed it.

An angel would only intercede if permitted by God, otherwise it would be like the downfall of Satan.

We learn from the Quran that it is unrighteous to ask God to forgive those who are destined for Hell, as in the case of Noah and his son or Abraham and his father. Or rather question God?s judgment.

I feel that you can pray that God will offer someone guidance, but we should not whine if the person is not being blessed.

Consider that, why would, in theory, Muhammad intercede for someone he never knew and try God's temper, and whom is destined for Hell?

Transfer of deeds

Your deeds are your deeds, your neighbor's deeds are your neighbor's deeds. You will not be punished for something your father did and your father will not be punished for your doings. If your father was a righteous man but you are not, then you will not benefit from his righteousness.

God bless you

Peace,

Cool summary bro

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

Thank God for that, He is the Doer of everything )

God bless you

unknownuser