New but not new to the views.
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This is one of the reasons I call myself Quranist. In my association with Muslims, they appreciate the fact that I'm open and honest about my views. I don't pretend as if there are no differences between us then hijack their platform to air my own views. I see other quranists doing that and I will not be part of that dishonest approach. Having a label does not mean being sectarian. Usually it's the opposite, those who refuse any kind of labels, calling themselves 'muslim only' are those who claim other Muslims are disbelievers or polytheists. I won't play that game.
I agree with this logic. I call myself a Quranist Muslim to distance myself from Sunni Islam. Unfortunately Sunnis have hijacked the label of "Muslim". Personally I don't care to associate myself with those who oppress women, condone the murder of apostates and disbelievers, claim the Prophet Muhammad was a child molester, abrogate verses of Quran, etc.
When someone asks my religion, I say "Quranist Muslim". This prompts them to ask what that is and gives me the opportunity to explain. This method feels comfortable and congruent to me. But I have no problem with those who feel comfortable labeling themselves as Muslim, believer or whatever. And I also agree that Quranist is not a new sect. It really is the original before other books and political alliances divided Muslims. The word Quranist is simply a better way to describe our beliefs. Just my opinion. Peace.
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Salaam Awaal_Muslim,
Thanks for your elaboration. I think you may have misunderstood my point or I may have expressed myself poorly. Or I cannot grasp what you wanted to highlight now.
I said that you may be a Truthseeker your whole life, even if you have come to a peace of mind and are absolutely certain about the Truth, thus being a true Believer (Mu?min). I am always open to better suggestions on how to refer to this.
I have a feeling we have the same understanding, but I am happy to read your words on this.
It is the monotone referral of the Believers as Muslims I was after since it is a description and not a name. I think we meant the same thing, basically.
God bless you
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Hey there Man of Faith
Sorry for the way over-due reply, got caught up with uni holidays. )
Look, I absolutely respect your choice of calling yourself a Quranist and thinking that Quran is a universal book, however of course, I may just have to agree to disagree at the label of calling oneself a Quranist. I prefer to call myself a Muslim. I guess partly because calling oneself a Muslim gives you a sense of belonging and identity. And we have learnt that from evolution of human wanting to belong to a particular tribe.
I do recommend that you learn Arabic though if you really admire Quran that much. I don't know, it maybe handy. Personally, I like to study hebrew some day because i want to read the Torah/ Talmud in hebrew. )
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What do you mean by compromise? There really is a distinction, at times, from attempting to please or appease people, atheists lets say. I find this is a group that people can easily end up trying to "appease" if they are religious. In fact, I've seen some Atheists who have commented back about my views - negatively and as though they are offended - about ridicule of certain things religious people do (I think it was about songs that religious people may write during times of hardship and then simply ridiculing this), but these same people think its ok for them to say whatever they want about anything and ridicule it etc. so, why would it be an issue for me to raise questions about what they do? I'm not sure if you meant appease when you said compromise, I'm just mentioning a point that came to mind.
Hey there supportpeacenotwar-
Apologies for the late reply, I know compromise can be a manipulative word at times. But i had suggest that it is important to recognise the actions/ intention of the person/ group you are compromising with. For example,
I could never compromise with Saudi Arabian/ wahabis to legally making it difficult for women to seek divorce/ drive/ stopping them from going out of the house etc. I will not, and can not compromise with the injustice and oppression of these men over the women. At times, I can also not compromise with those Atheists who think "all" religious belief is nothing but a fairytale and everyone who has a religion is stupid. Of course, their ignorance is not something I can compromise with.But I can compromise with people/ groups who are practicing their beliefs without inflicting pain onto others either psychological or physically. A group that I can not compromise with as a Muslim/ Human is perhaps the practice of the cast system in Hinduism. I am okay with their idolatry practice, their dance/rituals (as long as it is not harming the environment which is not the case with the current condition of the Ganges river) but i can compromise with certain Hindus who usually tend to pick and choose parts of hinduism that may assimilate with their lives.
Of course, no two people can ever agree on everything all the time even if they belong to the same sect/tribal clan. Again, as humans we shall compromise on those practices/ beliefs which are not harming other directly. At this moment in time, I sit here silently, compromising with the billions of people who do not agree with my beliefs. I am not saying that my relationship with God is personal, I dont think my relationship with God can ever be personal for as long as we humans live in system called a "society" where we have to contribute to qualify as being a member.
To put it simply, compromise with everything but injustice done to others- people, environment, animals.
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Hey there supportpeacenotwar-
Apologies for the late reply, I know compromise can be a manipulative word at times. But i had suggest that it is important to recognise the actions/ intention of the person/ group you are compromising with. For example,
I could never compromise with Saudi Arabian/ wahabis to legally making it difficult for women to seek divorce/ drive/ stopping them from going out of the house etc. I will not, and can not compromise with the injustice and oppression of these men over the women. At times, I can also not compromise with those Atheists who think "all" religious belief is nothing but a fairytale and everyone who has a religion is stupid. Of course, their ignorance is not something I can compromise with.But I can compromise with people/ groups who are practicing their beliefs without inflicting pain onto others either psychological or physically. A group that I can not compromise with as a Muslim/ Human is perhaps the practice of the cast system in Hinduism. I am okay with their idolatry practice, their dance/rituals (as long as it is not harming the environment which is not the case with the current condition of the Ganges river) but i can compromise with certain Hindus who usually tend to pick and choose parts of hinduism that may assimilate with their lives.
Of course, no two people can ever agree on everything all the time even if they belong to the same sect/tribal clan. Again, as humans we shall compromise on those practices/ beliefs which are not harming other directly. At this moment in time, I sit here silently, compromising with the billions of people who do not agree with my beliefs. I am not saying that my relationship with God is personal, I dont think my relationship with God can ever be personal for as long as we humans live in system called a "society" where we have to contribute to qualify as being a member.
To put it simply, compromise with everything but injustice done to others- people, environment, animals.
Salaam RidaKhan,
No problem. Funnily enough, in my last reply a few moments ago I was just saying that humans will rarely agree on everything. I see what you mean, compromise and tolerance are essential and what you're saying fits my understanding of the Quran. I would disagree on the point about having a personal relationship with God, as I believe we do. I think we serve Allah, not people. We live in society, it has benefits and many problems but I don't believe it prevents our personal relationship with God. I have occasionally come across views where people look at the warnings that God gives as a way of saying anyone who ever does certain things outside of Islam is doomed right there are then. They seem to be forgetting that God is The Most Patient and the Most Merciful. But, as you say, there is a line to be drawn in that compromise when it comes to intolerance, hatred and injustice etc.
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Salaam Rida
Correction 2177 is about Mutaqoon.
Why would not you consider yourself Momin, when Allah is addressing you as a Momin.
Peace
I don't call myself Momin because I don't believe I have reached that stage yet. According to Parwez- who I really admire, to be a Momin, we go through 4 phases.
Phase 1 Muslim
Here you accept Islam and by that I mean that you accept that there is one God, Quran is the book of God (given that you have thoroughly studied it and explored every aspect of it), and recognize the efforts of the Prophets. (Believe me, the first stage is not as easy as it sounds as human heart needs to be convinced about these "facts".)
Phase 2 Salahiteen
Now that you are clear about the foundations of the Islamic faith. It is time that you use and expand your "salahiyat" or "abilities" to work for the cause of Islam i.e. peace and injustice. For me this phase is about completing school, university, getting enough work experience etc.
Phase 3 Mutaqqeen (as mentioned by you)
Mutaqeen defined as people who are able to defend themselves from every hurdle in their life. Like an Arab that travels through the Arabian desert, tightly holding his robe and skipping every spiky desert plant/bush/ animals e.g. poisonous snake which if not dealt with properly can lead to death or permanent harm. I can send you a document which is a glossary of Quran so you can look up these terms in more detail.
After passing the phase of Mulim and Salahiteen can we only be prepared enough to face difficulties in life, and if we succeed, we become Mutaqeen.
Phase 4 The Final phase known as the phase of Momin. The peacemakers.
Now that our Islamic foundation is strong, have abilities/ qualifications to back up our stance, and have gained enough experience in life to deal with hurdles- we are now asked to work and strive for world peace.
In this phase, because we are empowered by our abilities, strength of character and experience, we are now asked to take on a greater responsibility (and by far the hardest) as Allah or God believes that we are ready for something much bigger.
So here are the 4 phases of a Muslim's journey as described in the Quran. The 4 words, Muslim, Momin, Salahiteen and Mutaqqin are repeatedly used. And I admire Parwez and Allama Iqbal to have been able to recognize and divide this step by step approach in order for Muslims to gain more control about their practice of Islam.
Thus, I do not feel that I have reached a place like that of Momin (peacemaker) since I do not feel that my heart has reached that "satisfaction" phase of Momin where I am happy to leave the world because I think I have done some good to the humanity.
I am still struggling with the phase 2 and 3. I need salahiyat- skills/tools to back me up and I am still learning to handle the difficulties that life throws at me. I know that life is unpredictable and can continue to throw difficulties, however, if you can pass the first few difficult experiences, you are likely to be able to deal with anything because you have a good foundation, required skills, tools and enough life experience.
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Salaam RidaKhan,
No problem. Funnily enough, in my last reply a few moments ago I was just saying that humans will rarely agree on everything. I see what you mean, compromise and tolerance are essential and what you're saying fits my understanding of the Quran. I would disagree on the point about having a personal relationship with God, as I believe we do. I think we serve Allah, not people. We live in society, it has benefits and many problems but I don't believe it prevents our personal relationship with God. I have occasionally come across views where people look at the warnings that God gives as a way of saying anyone who ever does certain things outside of Islam is doomed right there are then. They seem to be forgetting that God is The Most Patient and the Most Merciful. But, as you say, there is a line to be drawn in that compromise when it comes to intolerance, hatred and injustice etc.
Awesome. Cool. Well said. )
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Peace RidaKhan,
Good stuff, please continue with your explanation of angels and satan God willing.
Message me with an email address and I will send you the required documents that speak about the root words of Mailaika and Shaytan. You might find the glossary helpful as it also defines other concepts often wrongly translated.
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Salaam RidaKhan,
I do study the Arabic Quran to some extent, not as much as I could I guess, but I know some basics.
Did I say that I was a "Quranist"?
No, I did not, I avoid the term. I said I was a Believer, but if I have to refer to myself with a religious origin, I suppose it would be Muslim, since it seems to be the only accepted term. It is not wrong either, just that that term is so misused.
I understand that is why the definition "Submitter" emerged, so suppose I may have to land on Muslim. However, I belong to no sect, simply Muslim.
The reason is the false perception that the Muslims today are the only Muslims, anyone can be a Muslim, even if not been studying Quran.
God bless you
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I don't call myself Momin because I don't believe I have reached that stage yet. According to Parwez- who I really admire, to be a Momin, we go through 4 phases.
Phase 1 Muslim
Here you accept Islam and by that I mean that you accept that there is one God, Quran is the book of God (given that you have thoroughly studied it and explored every aspect of it), and recognize the efforts of the Prophets. (Believe me, the first stage is not as easy as it sounds as human heart needs to be convinced about these "facts".)
Phase 2 Salahiteen
Now that you are clear about the foundations of the Islamic faith. It is time that you use and expand your "salahiyat" or "abilities" to work for the cause of Islam i.e. peace and injustice. For me this phase is about completing school, university, getting enough work experience etc.
Phase 3 Mutaqqeen (as mentioned by you)
Mutaqeen defined as people who are able to defend themselves from every hurdle in their life. Like an Arab that travels through the Arabian desert, tightly holding his robe and skipping every spiky desert plant/bush/ animals e.g. poisonous snake which if not dealt with properly can lead to death or permanent harm. I can send you a document which is a glossary of Quran so you can look up these terms in more detail.
After passing the phase of Mulim and Salahiteen can we only be prepared enough to face difficulties in life, and if we succeed, we become Mutaqeen.
Phase 4 The Final phase known as the phase of Momin. The peacemakers.
Now that our Islamic foundation is strong, have abilities/ qualifications to back up our stance, and have gained enough experience in life to deal with hurdles- we are now asked to work and strive for world peace.
In this phase, because we are empowered by our abilities, strength of character and experience, we are now asked to take on a greater responsibility (and by far the hardest) as Allah or God believes that we are ready for something much bigger.
So here are the 4 phases of a Muslim's journey as described in the Quran. The 4 words, Muslim, Momin, Salahiteen and Mutaqqin are repeatedly used. And I admire Parwez and Allama Iqbal to have been able to recognize and divide this step by step approach in order for Muslims to gain more control about their practice of Islam.
Thus, I do not feel that I have reached a place like that of Momin (peacemaker) since I do not feel that my heart has reached that "satisfaction" phase of Momin where I am happy to leave the world because I think I have done some good to the humanity.
I am still struggling with the phase 2 and 3. I need salahiyat- skills/tools to back me up and I am still learning to handle the difficulties that life throws at me. I know that life is unpredictable and can continue to throw difficulties, however, if you can pass the first few difficult experiences, you are likely to be able to deal with anything because you have a good foundation, required skills, tools and enough life experience.
Salaam Rida
Lets accept the meaning and theory of Momin according to your understanding, but than it left me wonder who Allah is addressing in Quran as a believer?
O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous - 2183
So we should not be fasting because we think we are not a believer yet?
O you who have believed, spend from that which We have provided for you before there comes a Day in which there is no exchange and no friendship and no intercession. And the disbelievers - they are the wrongdoers. 2254
And we should not be spending in the way of Allah?
O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through , until you have washed . And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands . Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. 443
Or can we approach to Salaat because we have not believed as yet?
I think you started well in the post but you are inclining towards the same path that you started the post about. I expected that to backup your statements you should be quoting Quranic Ayats, with the knowledge and understanding you demonstrated about Arabic and Quran. Although, it is nice to know about Iqbal and Prevaiz but Allah (Ar-Rehman) takes precedence on all of them.
So I swear by what you see. And what you do not see. indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings. We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta. And there is no one of you who could prevent from him. And indeed, the Qur'an is a reminder for the righteous. And indeed, We know that among you are deniers. 6938-49
Also, could you also elaborate how you translated Momin as a Peace Maker.
Peace unto you.
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Awesome. Cool. Well said. )
Thanks, that's probably the best response I've had here. )
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Salaam RidaKhan,
I do study the Arabic Quran to some extent, not as much as I could I guess, but I know some basics.
Did I say that I was a "Quranist"?
No, I did not, I avoid the term. I said I was a Believer, but if I have to refer to myself with a religious origin, I suppose it would be Muslim, since it seems to be the only accepted term. It is not wrong either, just that that term is so misused.
I understand that is why the definition "Submitter" emerged, so suppose I may have to land on Muslim. However, I belong to no sect, simply Muslim.
The reason is the false perception that the Muslims today are the only Muslims, anyone can be a Muslim, even if not been studying Quran.
God bless you
Hey there! I AM SO SORRY You were NOT meant to read that post lol. My internet died around 4pm yesterday and I have been trying to get it work. I just spoke to the internet people and thank god it is working. You are right, you never said you were a Quranist and from reading your post you had already told me that you were learning Arabic, which I sincerely appreciate. So here's my actual response that I wanted to post lol.
You are right in the regard that Arabic is not my primary language, but you seem to have misunderstood my point in the post you read, since you said I tried to claim that Mu?min is the same as Muslim or translate into this, which I never did. I tried to define the word Muslim according to my knowledge, which is something like Peacemaker and the words Islam, Muslim and Salaam come from the root S L M. It does not take an expert to draw these conclusions I did, and I did not make this discovery on my own, credit is to people on this forum. I think the word Peacemaker/Submitter is still not the right choice to properly define Muslim, but something like Truth-seeker or similar.
Rida That's fine. I get you here.
//One does not have to be a Muslim to grasp the Message which all messengers came with and they all brought the same Message with some adjustments to the contents.//
Rida Yes. You do not have to be a Muslim to obtain the message of God. But you do need to recognise that in Islam Quran summarises the message of God and clears it out for other people. Thus you do need to study Quran as perhaps a matter of interest. I would discourage you to stick to translations of other people.
// Following the basic principles of the religion of God is simple, it means believing in God alone and the Hereafter, and to be a righteous believer. The Quran is a good book to guide people to be righteous, but this does not mean a man or a woman cannot be living in the Light of God without it.//
I don't understand you at all here. People maybe guided to an extent, by their society/ education-and perhaps athiests are guided too. But they may not be fully guided. It seems like you have this illusion that there is one "religion of God" which is universal. I strongly oppose this idea because well, this means that you dont think that Islam is that religion, or maybe you do, yet you think other religions say the same thing as Islam one way or the other therefore humans are getting the same Quranic message. If you mash all religions into one, all Gods into one, all books (regardless of their fabrication) into one- you are left with nothing but contradictions. And yet, you feel that everyone is "Rightly guided"? For example, what do you mean by the "righteous believer"?- which scripture determines who is a believer and who isnt? Buddhists may practice idolatry which contradicts the foundation of Islam- but a practicing Buddhist is a "believer" . It cannot be all same Man of Faith, each religion has its sets of rules/ foundations. There maybe generic guidelines like no to injustice/theft/murder etc- however, there are clear distinctions in guidelines of one religion to another. I am sorry to say, but this is a very popular western-converted Muslim perspective, which well... is certainly not Islamic in my understanding. Even though, I respect you for your beliefs.
//You are right in many ways, and I knew most of what you wrote already, but it was well written to the depth of it, I could learn at least a thing or two from it. The only problem is that this boastful contentment with the Quran has rendered you slightly arrogant to the extent of denying all the existing religions (sects) in the world. You do not have to be speaking and writing Arabic to grasp God?s Message//
Yep. I was right to conclude earlier. It is not something new for a converted Muslim of the West to minimize the emphasize to learn Arabic. Which of course is a must to understand Quran and its messages. Like I said earlier, translations can be wrong. You must learn the language. But we- (tempted to use the word "We" here), as Muslims do expect that if you want to join Islam you must have an understanding of either Arabic- or a languages similar to it like Persian, Urdu or Turkish. It is very sad that the new converts do not comprehend this despite many Muslim scholars emphasizing the importance of Arabic. Very, very sad.
//before I stumbled onto the Quran and I cannot say I was on a highway to Hell before I did so, I saw through Satan?s tricks with the trinity and invented stories about Jesus and I was a monotheist believer even then. I had never even taken my eyes upon the Quran before that and read the warnings about Jesus and the belief in the trinity.//
Quran makes it clear that if someone simply did not know the messages of the Quran then their lack of knowledge by chance will not shove them into hell. However, if someone does have the knowledge of the Quran and is aware of its messages and then deliberately choose not to adhere to the Quranic laws. This is when it starts getting tricky. You weren't going to be shoved into hell before you stumbled across Quran. And I dont think I ever said that anyone who believes in something else other than Quran will go to hell. For all I know is that I am not God, and I am no one to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
//Please do not get me wrong, the Quran is a most excellent book, perfectly detailed and it is not seemingly biased, its Message can be understood even with a quite poorly translated Quran//
You don't sound very convinced lol. Why "join Islam" after reading a "poorly" translation of Quran. Why not do more research before you convert? -
//If we want to classify ourselves by the ?name? Muslims, through the name Islam, we break God?s commandment of not divide ourselves into sects, because it is what it is, at least if we think it is a special religion exclusive to those who call themselves Muslim.//
Allah refers to the followers of Quran as Muslims. I do not comprehend your problem with this term. I am guessing it is the stereotype that is created in the Western media about the term "Muslim" which is preventing you from embracing it. Any other reason for rejecting this term, to me, is just lack of understanding of the Quran and its importance and emphasize of the term Muslim. I replied to Awal's post speaking of the 4 phases of being a Muslim. You might want to have a look.
//I must thank you for providing me with some additional information which I did not know, or if I did know it, you put new light to it, you had me thinking, even if I have not changed my mind regarding my perception of the Truth, as I am most certain about it.//
Fair enough.
//You said that I put Believer into a generic form, I say that I choose this neutral term because it means just as it is usually perceived, as someone who believes in God, since there is only one God, one religion, thus making the term Muslim less attractive, if one wants to be open to the world. //
Again, a typical Western- convert response. I have met so many people like you. it's so interesting how you guys come up with these abstract understanding of something so simple. / Yet, you have the right to call yourself whatever you are comfortable with.
//If it would be possible, if my passport had this information, to state my religion, I would have wanted it to say ?the religion of God? or ?God?s religion?, since it is the most accurate term. There is only one religion and that is God?s religion. Creating religious sects is just causing additional imbalance in the peace of the Earth, hence I free myself of the boundaries of a specific religion. If you want to call me ?Other? as religion, then please go ahead and do it, but I would say that it is Christian, Jew, Muslim etc, which is in the ?Other? category. For non-other, the choice is God?s religion. So it is either God?s religion or ?Other?.//
I had agree with you here. You are indeed among the "Other" category. Thank you for finally answering this.
// Your Arabic is certainly better than mine, but we must still contemplate the Quran?s true meaning. I respect the translations I have read and I am sure they did their utmost to present it as accurate as they could, considering Arabic is used in a completely different way than English. And I study the original Arabic Quran together with those who are more knowledgeable in Arabic than I am.//
Just be careful about those teaching you the Arabic. I am glad you are making the effort though. However, I like to end the discussion here and agree to disagree, respectfully.
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Okay to begin with. Can you please stop quoting my lengthy responses and only quote specific parts?
Thank you.
//Lets accept the meaning and theory of Momin according to your understanding, but than it left me wonder who Allah is addressing in Quran as a believer?//
Rida My understanding? I had say Parwez's understanding. And your question makes me want to quote a mohawara in Urdu, that "ap baal ki khaal nikal rahay ho" i.e "you are trying to rip skin off the hair"- it is used when someone is deliberately trying to analyze/ dig information from something that is very straight forward.
Even though, I shouldn't be justifying my beliefs to you, yet I don't want people to think I stepped back because I didn't have enough Quranic knowledge. I certainly do not want them to think that someone who copies verses from the Quran and posts them on discussion forms automatically qualifies to be "more educated" about the Quran. Learning from Jinnah/ Iqbal and Parwez- my elders have taught me to be mindful of the respect shown to the Quran/ Islam in general. Therefore, in my humble understanding, it feels like "you are making a mockery out of Quran" if you post a Quranic verse on a "random" discussion forum often accessed by trolls. Therefore, I very rarely quote Quran on discussion forums unless I have to, in order to explain a particular point of view. Previously I mentioned my annoyance with this guy called "amir" who had been posting entire Quran on this discussion forum and literally preaching to people. I don't like what he is doing, I don't agree with preaching and I certainly find it very insensitive of people quoting Quran where ever and whenever they like. It's pathetic. Really, it is.
To your second question, who is Allah referring to when he uses the word Salahiteen/ mutaqeen/ momin- of course he is referring to Muslims- to be generic. Because you wouldn't be a salahiteen/ mutaqeen or momin if you weren't first a Muslim. So again, don't try to rip skin off the hair.
//I think you started well in the post but you are inclining towards the same path that you started the post about. I expected that to backup your statements you should be quoting Quranic Ayats, with the knowledge and understanding you demonstrated about Arabic and Quran. Although, it is nice to know about Iqbal and Prevaiz but Allah (Ar-Rehman) takes precedence on all of them. //
Also, could you also elaborate how you translated Momin as a Peace Maker.
Peace unto you.
Allah does indeed precedes over any human understanding, but I trust these people's views. I have already told you why I don't tend to quote Quran unless I have to.
Look up my previous posts about the word Muslim/ Momin and see for yourself why Momin- indeed means a peacemaker. I think it is on page 2 of this discussion forum. I have also quoted Quranic verses there. Besides, weren't you the one correcting me on one of the verses quoting "mutaqoon" ? So then, you must have already read my lengthy post about the words Muslim/ Momin, where not only have I quoted scholars, but also the Quranic verses. Perhaps go read it again.
But do try not to rip skin off the hair. As the hair do not have skin.
Peace
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One thing I notice with some folks here - when you disagree with THEM, they say you disagree with the Quran itself. They say their views are 'quranic' or 'according to the quran' or 'the true view'. These are simply delusions of grandeur. In truth, ALL of us are subjective interpreters of the Quran.
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Salaam,
I am not in the mood to write another lengthy post to clarify my meaning, but I will try to "defend" my interpretation of the Message in short.
Those who are involved, the people who have a connection to the teachings of the "Ibrahimic" religion, all worship the same God, whether it be Christian or Jew, they all follow Islam.
The religion is not bound to this book, this Message have been along all the time, and it is this I try to convey with my posts.
The Message is not reserved for those who understand Arabic, it is a universal message to all mankind. The Message is present in the Bible, it can be present in religious literature and even someone's poem.
The recommendations from God are not particularly hard to follow, just understand the Quran?s/the Message's most important aspects and you are well on your way.
You write like I am in a critical need of guidance, while I am grateful of being one blessed by the Lord.
The most important aspect of the religion is to be a righteous person, a good person from inside out, and you can be that by just searching your feelings and looking for the Light. The Truth will come to the one who is honest with himself and open to it.
Already, as of today, I know enough of the Quran that I can live a good life with the acquired Knowledge. I trust sincere interpreters of the Quran who I can discuss the Quranic passages with that are more knowledgeable of the Arabic language and I know God has given me the ability to see what is true or wrong.
Even the Bible, before I ran into the Quran, taught me well on how to be and behave, as well as my own thoughts and meditation upon life. The Truth is not limited to the Quran only. The Book is a blessing and a mercy from God that He gave a book He composed Himself which is pure from any conjecture, and you can follow it knowing it is from Him who sent you.
I urge you to remove these preconceptions that Islam is a religion which is limited to people who know Arabic, Islam has absolutely nothing to so with Arabic and this culture at all. The Quran was revealed in Arabic while the old Jewish scriptures were in Hebrew and Jesus followers wrote in ancient Greek.
The Message is nothing confined to a certain book, it is something that came from God and any person can follow His Message. It is a lifestyle and not a set of rules, except for three major ones like I wrote previously. Jesus followed the Quranic teachings, the Message and the book in its physical form was not even written yet. And other messengers of old also lived by the same teachings, the Quranic Message has been present all the time.
I will be so frank as to say that I was a Muslim even before I read the Quran, that is my view of the Truth. This book or name of religion means nothing, when defining a righteous Believer. The Islam is like I said not the name of a religion but a lifestyle which you can follow by embracing the Message.
The Book is at it claims itself, a blessing and a guide to mankind, a help for one who seek more Wisdom and Knowledge, but to say you cannot reach Heaven without it is a bit ignorant to be honest.
Islam is nothing you can join, it is something you are, or a Truth you seek. I am here on this forum because these people give me lot of Wisdom and Knowledge, I can divide the Truth from falsehood myself. I "stumbled across" the Quran, and I use it as a source of religious teachings, but I do not look on the Truth the way you do.
You indirectly call me arrogant, but look at yourself. Those choices of words show pretty much.
I accept that you wish to believe Islam is limited to a group of people and I am not saying you are less knowledgeable than me, but we certainly do not have the same approach. You seem proud of your alleged knowledge and that is dangerous, if you know the scripture.
And please do not twist my words, I said people of religions other than God's religion are other. I did not admit I am other, I gave you the opportunity to use whatever you wish.
And atheists are not divinely guided, it was the kind of guidance I am talking about, of course. The majority of mankind does not follow the guidance if the have the opportunity, it does not only include disbelievers. God can have your eyes opened and guide you if you actively search for the Truth, thus giving an atheist guidance, although he is probably not an atheist any longer as he searches for answers in the divine.
Ok, now my post managed to become as long as I did not want it to become. It was not my intention.
Okay, I will too end the discussion after this post.
God bless you
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One thing I notice with some folks here - when you disagree with THEM, they say you disagree with the Quran itself. They say their views are 'quranic' or 'according to the quran' or 'the true view'. These are simply delusions of grandeur. In truth, ALL of us are subjective interpreters of the Quran.
Agreed. But I guess better to be subjective interpreters of the Quran than following it blindly, ey?
I feel the same about the whole 'disagreeing = ignorance/ arrogance'.
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Oh I embrace my subjectivity, Rida. It is what makes me human. Indeed I've seen some quranists calling others 'pagans' or 'spreaders of falsehood' when they themselves are fallible readers. To me this is a very big delusion. This is why we set up the Quranists Space. It's a place where you take what you find suitable. No one can tell you what or how much to take.
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I'll inject a post here then.
I'd like to agree with Man of Faith in his understanding on the quran, believers and arabic. I really like the post!
I know people who are not very knowledgeable about the quran, and has been brought up being fed all those ridiculous sunna and hadith stories... and still showing more understanding of life and the principles of the quran than most people who have studied it for a long time. God is indeed great. Some people will benefit from the quran, as a guidance and criterion, while others won't get twiddly twat out of it. I'm not being philosophical when I'm saying that some people get guidance form the quran, other don't, and it is all about their inner softeness and humbleness of the heart. God indeed guides whomever God wishes... and the quran is neither a guarantee FOR guidance or understanding, nor is the lack of familiarity with the quran implying a less degree of guidance. If pre-quranic prophets and messengers can be so pure and guided without the quran, then of course, "common people" can be very guided aswell. It is God who guides, not the quran. The quran is a tool for us poor human beings who may not be able to pick up guidance in any other, more refined and direct way.
Second of all, although there is a difference between mazhab and deen... many people who claim to follow a deen are in practical reality treating it as a mazhab/religion. The Muslims always say, in one and the same sentence, that Islam is the best religion, among religions, and also that it is not just a religion, but a whole life style. Yeah? What's the difference? There are loads n loads of people in any religion who is living it as a life style. Deen is not just a life style that you express when it suits you... it is not something you do... it is something you ARE and work on improving and develop.... it's a direction, approach or even point of view is some sense.
Cheers
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Second of all, although there is a difference between mazhab and deen... many people who claim to follow a deen are in practical reality treating it as a mazhab/religion. The Muslims always say, in one and the same sentence, that Islam is the best religion, among religions, and also that it is not just a religion, but a whole life style. Yeah? What's the difference? There are loads n loads of people in any religion who is living it as a life style. Deen is not just a life style that you express when it suits you... it is not something you do... it is something you ARE and work on improving and develop.... it's a direction, approach or even point of view is some sense.
Well, I'm still thinking about a definiton of Islam, but for now I would say the differnece between Islam as a religion and how I see Islam is that the religion tries to distinguish itself from others, by certain rites, by a certain language etc, while my understanding of Islam does not need that. On the contrary, it is the feeling of the one-ness of everything, represented by the one-ness of God, that is important and which may be present in people of different denomination, of different self-concept.