Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace sister Marie,
We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (280, 2184, 2203, 324, 118, 1220). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
I agree.
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.
In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.
Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2184 because then you are building a circular argument.
There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in 2827 and 7142.
Is the number 10 in those verses not a counted number?
Sister, you have got to use some deductive reasoning and you can't expect the answer to be presented on a silver platter as "completing the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" = 10".
We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7142, 7155, 2638, 4440, 5650, 7817). Salat (timed book) is a good example.
Actually, I have the same understanding as you of "meeqat" but it is you who doesn't have the same understanding as me. This is for the simple reason that I see "meeqat" as the timing of the START and/or END of something while you see it ONLY as the start. Therefore my understanding encompasses your understanding. So far, you have brought zero evidence that "meeqat" only means the start of something and never the end. The example of "salat" actually completely negates your understanding because "salat" has a START and an END.
We have not the same understanding of the verse 936.
Agree to disagree for the moment.
The only reason why we have different understanding of 936 is because you don't see a difference between "3idat" and "3adad". On the other hand, I believe and logically one can see that The God doesn't use those two different terms haphazardly. Let's at least agree on that.
We also agree that when one counts more or less than EXACTLY 12 "shahr", one would be in violation of 936. In the system as I understand it, one ALWAYS counts EXACTLY 12 "full-moons" EVERY year, while in your understanding because you don't see the difference between "3idat" and "3adad", you are forced to count 13 in some years to keep your alleged "period between two new moons" in line with the seasons.
Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time. )
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2184 because then you are building a circular argument.
In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (280, 324, 118, 1220).
I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.
You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time.
This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.
For the moment, I have not the response to several points.
Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you twisted
Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a guide and especially during the night of alqadr (971)
If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of alqadr (971-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (3639)
971 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri972 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadriI wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon twisted973 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin3639 And the moon We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemiPeace
Marie -
Peace sister Marie,
In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (280, 324, 118, 1220).
I totally agree, "maAAdoodat" doesn't mean a known number but a few days (a "few" by definition is between 3-10) and not specifically 10 days.
I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.
To complete "alAAiddat" of "maAAdoodat", which we already agree means a few (between 3-10) means complete/reach the maximum of a few/"maAAdoodat" which is 10.
You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.But "ahilat" are only described as "mawaqeet" for people and for "7ajj" not for "ramadan". We agree that the term "ramadan" is season related. In other words, scorching heat or in your case the time between "sayf" and "kharif" (which is called "qayth" according to Lisan Al-3arab).
The term "mawaqeet" is the timing of the start, end, or start and end. One cannot use "hilal" to time any 12 periods because there are actually 25 "hilals" on average in a year. Please remember that "hilal" denotes both thinning and widening crescents.
One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "7ajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "7ajj". Remember 2189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.
This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.
For the moment, I have not the response to several points.
Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you twisted
Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a guide and especially during the night of alqadr (971)
If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of alqadr (971-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (3639)
971 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri972 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadriI wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon twisted973 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin3639 And the moon We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemiC'est magnifique. ) Thank you sister for your excellent observation. When we reach the proper understanding everything falls into place and the age old mystery of "laylatu al-qadr" solves itself. I didn't even notice that the article inadvertently solved when exactly "laylatu al-qadr" occurs until after I had completed it.
Paix and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful
About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 3638, 4112, 7616
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence
- to approach your women sexually
- And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (975)
I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 891-2 and 2187
- The night
and - the dawn
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By the dawn.
Waalfajri -
And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin
We can see a connection between these verses twisted
893.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatriMaybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc
2N (even)---> 1D (odd)
3N---> 2D
4N---> 3D
5N---> 4D
6N---> 5D
7N---> 6D
8N---> 7D
9N---> 8D
10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)
Looking for your toughts
Thanks
Marie
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Peace sister Marie,
I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful
Quand j'?tais petit, la langue Fran?aise ?tait ma seconde langue apr?s l'Arabe. Mais maintenant je manque du pratique et ce n'est plus facile pour moi. Heureusement, mon ?pouse est un professeur de Fran?ais. )
About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 3638, 4112, 7616
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence
- to approach your women sexually
- And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (975)
I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 891-2 and 2187
- The night
and - the dawn
Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
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By the dawn.
Waalfajri -
And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin
We can see a connection between these verses twisted
893.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatriMaybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc
2N (even)---> 1D (odd)
3N---> 2D
4N---> 3D
5N---> 4D
6N---> 5D
7N---> 6D
8N---> 7D
9N---> 8D
10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup.
Paix,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
Your French is perfect )
Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
No need to ask the permission.
All praise to the God
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
Just a little remark, in 892, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights
1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 Ten nights (892)
......1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2184)
1 the night of alqadr; the night of the first days 1 of abstinence
10 the 10th night is the night of the 10th days 10 of abstinence
In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.
Peace and all best wishes
Your sister Marie
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Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for your kind help sister. )
Just a little remark, in 892, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights
971-5 we hear the night of the measure being peace until "al-fajr".
891-2 we hear about "al-fajr" and then ten nights.
Let's call the night of "qadr"/measure Q.
Q to fajr........ 1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 fajr + Ten nights (891-2)
................1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2184)
Q the night of alqadr; the night before the first day 1 of abstinence
Remember we have to witness the "shahr"/full moon first before we abstain.
10 the 10th night is the night of the 10th day 10 of abstinence with which we complete the abstinence as per 2187 ("atimu al-siyam ila al-layl").
On that 10th night we would see the thinning crescent signaling the end of the abstinence and hence not abstain the next day (Just in case we forget to keep track of the number of days).
In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.
I agree. However, in the case of abstinence in 2187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
In the case of abstinence in 2187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.
Agree, the night of "qadr"/measure is the night before the first day of abstinence, but we start to follow what is said in 2187 from the night "qadr"/measure in other word
- It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually.
- And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn
The night after the 10th day of abstinence is an ordinary night where we have no obligation to follow about eating, drinking and the sexual relations with our spouse.
In my opinion, the night of "qadr"/measure is the first night of abstinence and the 10th night is the 10th nights of abstinence.
We have to complete the 10th day of abstinence until the night not with one more night. The 11st night should be not counted because it is an ordinary night where we have no obligation (2187 is not applied for the 11st night).
We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.
When we witness the full moon of the night of "qadr"/measure, we have to abstain it and wehave to apply 2187 from this first night.
Consequently, 10 nights and ten days of abstinence according the quran.
I wonder a question, if to complete the count is equivalent to ten dfays, the re is no need to witness the hilal to stop abstinence.
According 2189, there is no mention to use hilal/cresnet for abstinence.
Looking for your comment
Peace
Marie -
Peace sister Marie,
I would agree with your understanding except a problem comes up when we compare 2187, 975 and 891-3.
The "fajr" in 891, 2187, and 975 is probably the same one.
We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.
I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 891-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.
Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(971-5, 2187) - (891-2)"fajr" is common.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Brs Ayman, Zein,
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,
I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.
Peace be with you.
Zein
Thanks for your nice words. All the readers of this debate are so patient
Our Lord grant us patience, and make firm our foothold.
I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 891-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.
Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(971-5, 2187) - (891-2)I arrived to the same conclusion than you this morning, praise to the God
Thanks
Marie -
Salam brother Ayman, all,
If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions
Abstinence
- How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?
The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11114 and 1778 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?All comment appreciated.
Thanks
Marie
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Salaams marie,
you will figure it out sooner or later
The fish can't swim on land,and neither are the eskimos going to make their houses of brick,if they only have ice Allahs will show them how to adopt ice.
And the quran can't be applied every where as it stands , but with modifications it can.
But isn't it available in modified forms to all nations - but not through the arabs but from Allah.And some of these forms are far better then the form of the arabic quran,As people have progressed so Allah has given them improved versions of the quran.And isn't this why even the arabs are followers nowadays.
No reply required , thanks,Salaams.
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Peace sister Marie, all,
If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions
Abstinence
- How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?
The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11114 and 1778 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?I think that to answer those questions we need to look at the purpose of the timed learning connection/"salat".
First, let's start with the learning connection/"salat". The purpose is to remember The God and we accomplish this by studying His signs. The God gave us the best times to accomplish the purpose.
The time of "fajr" is when light starts to emerge and we wake up with a clear mind. I have personally made most of the big breakthroughs in my understanding of the great reading and even in my professional work during that time.
The time after sunset is when we generally get off work and go home. This is also a relaxing time where we can study the great reading more effectively.
Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.
As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.
I hope this helps and all comments would be appreciated.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.
You are right.
I think the dawn and the dusk are a temporal indication, the goal is to consecrate a moment to read and study the divine message and His signs before starting and at the end of our activities, this is a good food mind.
In7320 we are told to study what we can of the quran and there is no mention of time; one can choose the good moment in harmony whith his activity to do it
So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. (7320)
As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.
You are correct, the God give us a temporal indication and it is not an obligatory condition to abstain during a counted days.
The God describes the night as a cover, and sleep for resting and the day to move about in (2547) and this is also a criterion that one can used to do both salat and abstinence independently of the sun movement.
Before I believed that 11114 & 1778 are only adressed to the prophet but now I change my mind about it. Praise to the God.
Starting and finishing our activity by reading and studying is a good food for our mind )Thanks for your helpful inputs
Peace
Marie -
Peace be upon you Ayman and Marie,
I don't know if I can get used to all this agreement! D
Just kidding.
I agree as well. Marie you mentioned the night for sleeping. In those areas where the sun stays up, the people still go to sleep. They don't stay up just because the sun never goes down.
So while we are in areas that are unusual, we should make the adjustments.I have to woder why people ended up migrating to areas where the day and night were different from most of the earth? I believe that those places weren't meant for people to remian there, but only to go to for a while, then come back, but that is all just guessing on my part. Indeed the earth is spacious for anyone that wants to sleep everyday in the darkness of night.
I'm rambling so I will say Peace D
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Peace all
Ayman
First i commend the great effortss you have made trying to solve the mistery... irrespective of whether the conclusions of the article are correct or not i think your work is a rich contribution to solving of the mistery...at least in respect of opening many diferent horizons of how this matter could be approached....
without debating the validity of all the arguments(for example whats the real meaning of the word shahr) and conclusions proposed in the article here are 3 points that seems very subjective from my point of view....
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
third question
how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
wait to hear and learn from you more
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?
The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD"
- Highest point of the sun
Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.
- What comes when the sun is still hot
Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.
- Red eyes
So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?
The first full moon after the summer solstice
- Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
- Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
- Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).
Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.
Now, let me answer your third question first.
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
From 2185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (986) was a hot time of the year (981) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".
Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year
They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.
Another point is in 52 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman, Marie, all...
Thank you for posting this article at a time i really needed to research it..
I had some questions, but i think the majority have been answered in the course of this discussion quite satisfactorily...the rest i will soon get to...wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?Also, sister marie wrote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moonThis would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...
Excellent article though and quite logical and easy to understand methodically...
Nadia