Hot/"ramadan" Answer

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

Your French is perfect )

Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.

No need to ask the permission.

All praise to the God

1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence

Just a little remark, in 892, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights

1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 Ten nights (892)

......1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2184)

1 the night of alqadr; the night of the first days 1 of abstinence

10 the 10th night is the night of the 10th days 10 of abstinence

In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.

Peace and all best wishes

Your sister Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your kind help sister. )

Just a little remark, in 892, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights

971-5 we hear the night of the measure being peace until "al-fajr".

891-2 we hear about "al-fajr" and then ten nights.

Let's call the night of "qadr"/measure Q.

Q to fajr........ 1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 fajr + Ten nights (891-2)

................1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2184)

Q the night of alqadr; the night before the first day 1 of abstinence

Remember we have to witness the "shahr"/full moon first before we abstain.

10 the 10th night is the night of the 10th day 10 of abstinence with which we complete the abstinence as per 2187 ("atimu al-siyam ila al-layl").

On that 10th night we would see the thinning crescent signaling the end of the abstinence and hence not abstain the next day (Just in case we forget to keep track of the number of days).

In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.

I agree. However, in the case of abstinence in 2187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

In the case of abstinence in 2187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.

Agree, the night of "qadr"/measure is the night before the first day of abstinence, but we start to follow what is said in 2187 from the night "qadr"/measure in other word

It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually.
And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

The night after the 10th day of abstinence is an ordinary night where we have no obligation to follow about eating, drinking and the sexual relations with our spouse.

In my opinion, the night of "qadr"/measure is the first night of abstinence and the 10th night is the 10th nights of abstinence.

We have to complete the 10th day of abstinence until the night not with one more night. The 11st night should be not counted because it is an ordinary night where we have no obligation (2187 is not applied for the 11st night).

We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.

When we witness the full moon of the night of "qadr"/measure, we have to abstain it and wehave to apply 2187 from this first night.

Consequently, 10 nights and ten days of abstinence according the quran.

I wonder a question, if to complete the count is equivalent to ten dfays, the re is no need to witness the hilal to stop abstinence.

According 2189, there is no mention to use hilal/cresnet for abstinence.

Looking for your comment

Peace
Marie

zenje

Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

I would agree with your understanding except a problem comes up when we compare 2187, 975 and 891-3.

The "fajr" in 891, 2187, and 975 is probably the same one.

We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.

I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 891-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(971-5, 2187) - (891-2)

"fajr" is common.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace Brs Ayman, Zein,

Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein

Thanks for your nice words. All the readers of this debate are so patient

Our Lord grant us patience, and make firm our foothold.

I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 891-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(971-5, 2187) - (891-2)

I arrived to the same conclusion than you this morning, praise to the God

Thanks
Marie

marie

Salam brother Ayman, all,

If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions

Abstinence

How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11114 and 1778 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?

All comment appreciated.

Thanks

Marie

unknownuser

Salaams marie,

you will figure it out sooner or later

The fish can't swim on land,and neither are the eskimos going to make their houses of brick,if they only have ice Allahs will show them how to adopt ice.

And the quran can't be applied every where as it stands , but with modifications it can.

But isn't it available in modified forms to all nations - but not through the arabs but from Allah.And some of these forms are far better then the form of the arabic quran,As people have progressed so Allah has given them improved versions of the quran.And isn't this why even the arabs are followers nowadays.

No reply required , thanks,Salaams.

marie

peace

ayman

Peace sister Marie, all,

If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions

Abstinence

How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11114 and 1778 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?

I think that to answer those questions we need to look at the purpose of the timed learning connection/"salat".

First, let's start with the learning connection/"salat". The purpose is to remember The God and we accomplish this by studying His signs. The God gave us the best times to accomplish the purpose.

The time of "fajr" is when light starts to emerge and we wake up with a clear mind. I have personally made most of the big breakthroughs in my understanding of the great reading and even in my professional work during that time.

The time after sunset is when we generally get off work and go home. This is also a relaxing time where we can study the great reading more effectively.

Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.

As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.

I hope this helps and all comments would be appreciated.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.

You are right.

I think the dawn and the dusk are a temporal indication, the goal is to consecrate a moment to read and study the divine message and His signs before starting and at the end of our activities, this is a good food mind.

In7320 we are told to study what we can of the quran and there is no mention of time; one can choose the good moment in harmony whith his activity to do it

So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. (7320)

As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.

You are correct, the God give us a temporal indication and it is not an obligatory condition to abstain during a counted days.

The God describes the night as a cover, and sleep for resting and the day to move about in (2547) and this is also a criterion that one can used to do both salat and abstinence independently of the sun movement.

Before I believed that 11114 & 1778 are only adressed to the prophet but now I change my mind about it. Praise to the God.
Starting and finishing our activity by reading and studying is a good food for our mind )

Thanks for your helpful inputs

Peace
Marie

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ayman and Marie,

I don't know if I can get used to all this agreement! D

Just kidding.

I agree as well. Marie you mentioned the night for sleeping. In those areas where the sun stays up, the people still go to sleep. They don't stay up just because the sun never goes down.
So while we are in areas that are unusual, we should make the adjustments.

I have to woder why people ended up migrating to areas where the day and night were different from most of the earth? I believe that those places weren't meant for people to remian there, but only to go to for a while, then come back, but that is all just guessing on my part. Indeed the earth is spacious for anyone that wants to sleep everyday in the darkness of night.

I'm rambling so I will say Peace D

Zlatan

Peace all

Ayman

First i commend the great effortss you have made trying to solve the mistery... irrespective of whether the conclusions of the article are correct or not i think your work is a rich contribution to solving of the mistery...at least in respect of opening many diferent horizons of how this matter could be approached....

without debating the validity of all the arguments(for example whats the real meaning of the word shahr) and conclusions proposed in the article here are 3 points that seems very subjective from my point of view....

first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?

second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods

third question

how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?

wait to hear and learn from you more

best wishes, Zlatan

ayman

Peace brother Zlatan,

Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.

first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?

The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?

The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD"

Highest point of the sun

Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.

What comes when the sun is still hot

Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.

Red eyes

So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?

The first full moon after the summer solstice

Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).

Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.

Now, let me answer your third question first.

third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?

From 2185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (986) was a hot time of the year (981) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".

Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year

They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.

Another point is in 52 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".

second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods

From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

savage_carrot

Peace brother Ayman, Marie, all...

Thank you for posting this article at a time i really needed to research it..
I had some questions, but i think the majority have been answered in the course of this discussion quite satisfactorily...the rest i will soon get to...wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?

Also, sister marie wrote

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon

This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...

Excellent article though and quite logical and easy to understand methodically...

Nadia

Someone

Peace all,

For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 162 16102 bringing the commands of the lord.

161
162
163

ayman

Peace sister Nadia,

It is good to see you back on the forum )

wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?

Feeding of the poor would also be another mean of control since it is mentioned 595 with abstinence as corresponding to "qala'id" in 597. Moreover, feeding of the poor is mentioned in other signs as a substitute for abstinence.

Also, sister marie wrote

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon

This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...

It is most likely that the great reading was descended in Arabia in the Northern hemisphere. Now is the night of measure only one where the great reading was descended long time ago or does it occur again and again at the specified time period?

I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Someone,

For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 162 16102 bringing the commands of the lord.

161
162
163

I agree that 971 could be either interpreted to be talking about what we are reading (the scripture) or the "ru7"/spirit but either way the conclusion is valid. Don't forget that the "ru7" is what brought the scripture (see 4252, 4015, 26192-195). The link is provided because the great reading was descended at the time of the scorching full-moon (2185) and the great reading (or the ru7 that brought it) was descended in the night of measure (971).

Peace,

Ayman

Zlatan

Peace to you dear Ayman, all

second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods

From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.

thanks for the explanations, now it seems less subjective to me...(with the strong emphasis on less...)

Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?

However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...

(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)

i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...

i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...

however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......

when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...

at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution

Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other. I think that is what we all lack and which is why we are having trouble accepting this, or perhaps still not 100% at the answer. I feel comfortable with this answer that Ayman has brought, but not 100% and I cant explain why.

Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?

Maythe God increase our KNOWlegde.