Was Satan avoiding shirk when he refused to prostrate towards Adam?

mmkhan

Salaam clashncruz,

Please take a look at this thread, inshaAllah, it will help you.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

Wakas

peace,

You can read my view in reply 577 here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8438.570

mmkhan

Adam was created in the exact same image and likeness of God. Thus, in effect, Adam was to be revered as God. I don't view Adam as having been merely one mortal person either. I view Adam as a being of flesh and bone, which is different than a body of flesh and blood like we have. If you know the difference between flesh and bone and flesh and blood, then the Adam and Eve narrative can make a lot more sense in an explicit way. It isn't just an allegory. It is a very precise narrative speaking of a literal and tangible reality.

Evidence needed from alQuraan please...

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

kylixguru

Evidence needed from alQuraan please...
The alQuraan recognizes Torah as inspired Words of God.
If you are not comfortable with that, please take that up with Allah and not me.

Also, there is likely plenty in the Qur'an that touches on this subject. I am still learning about the Qur'an. Perhaps you can help me find those evidences?

Is there anywhere in the Qur'an where it talks about what a resurrected body of flesh and bone actually is?

Jafar

Ok so you all probably already know this story. My questions regarding this story are as follows

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. So does it have something to do with customs of the region at that time? Remember in the bible people prostrated themselves before other people all the time, kings, priests, prophets, holy men... is this shirk?
Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?

I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about this story and these questions.

Thank you in advance for you time and patience in go over this material.

Peace!

Your hypothesis start with a suggested notion from Judaist and Wahhabist that bowing / prostrating to other being is an act of disgrace and evil. Which is not true. The idea started from the story found in the book of Daniel (within a bundle called Tanakh) of 3 Israelites who refuse to prostrate and worship an idol setup by Babylonian King.

"Bowing / Prostrating to Adam" might be metaphorical in those Quranic verses.
Because we don't know what's the physical anatomy of a being called Iblis there and whether he can actually perform such act.

The meaning might be to 'pay a respect' towards a new being called "adam" in that verse.
Which he/she/it refuse to do because he/she/it think that he/she/it is far greater than "adam" (arrogant)

Such attitude (arrogance) proved to be the root cause of downfall of great nation / culture in the past.
From the mighty roman empire, great persian empire, caliphates, european colonialist power etc..
Thus the idea that arrogance lead to a downfall can be proven to be true by the observation of the history of humankind.

Thus the main message being told in that verse is
"Don't be arrogant as it can lead to your own downfall and disgrace, respect others then other will respect you"

I have no problems of paying respect to anyone..

Salam / Peace

mohf

SJD / Sujud / SaJDa / ... does not mean a physical prostration. This is a traditional understanding. This understanding creates many contradictions in the Quran (also see 124 and 12100 and many other verses) and must thus be discarded.

SJD in the context of the story of Adam and Iblis means to accept authority. Please see 230 where Allah says he will place a Khalifa, which clearly refers to Adam (234). God is asking Al Malaika, including Iblis to accept that Adam will have a higher authority and that they have to obey him.

This is my personal understanding.

Renegade

God is asking Al Malaika, including Iblis to accept that Adam will have a higher authority and that they have to obey him.

Where does the Quran say that Iblis was one of Al Malaika?

mohf

Where does the Quran say that Iblis was one of Al Malaika?

Well, I have to say that this is my personal understanding I got from 234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

I am not sure, I may be wrong, but doesn't this verse make clear that Iblis is included in Al Malaika? Otherwise, Allah wouldn't have said AlMalaika because it would make a contradiction.

Mazhar

Well, I have to say that this is my personal understanding I got from 234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

I am not sure, I may be wrong, but doesn't this verse make clear that Iblis is included in Al Malaika? Otherwise, Allah wouldn't have said AlMalaika because it would make a contradiction.

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident

" "
712

mirjamnur

Salam Mazhar

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident

" "
712

How should be the phrase if the exception relates to the angels?? it will be not the same? thank you for clarification- it's very interesting- because this Aya let me to accept, that Iblis was one from the malaikas , i.e the malaikas are jinns. (Sura kahf)
peace

Bigmo

Salaam everyone!

I hope you are all doing well.

I have had this question concerning a story in the Qur'an for a while now and I would be very interested to see what every one here has to say about it.

These are the verses of the story I am referring to

" "
"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234

" "
"And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated." 711

" "
" said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."" 712

" "
"Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated." 1531

" "
" said, O Iblees, what is with you that you are not with those who prostrate?" 1532

" "
"He said, "Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."" 1533

" "
"And when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"" 1761

" "
"(Allah) said "O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?"" 3875

Ok so you all probably already know this story. My questions regarding this story are as follows

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. So does it have something to do with customs of the region at that time? Remember in the bible people prostrated themselves before other people all the time, kings, priests, prophets, holy men... is this shirk?
Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?

I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about this story and these questions.

Thank you in advance for you time and patience in go over this material.

Peace!

Maybe you should first start looking at what is shirk since I am not sure what prostrating to Adam has anything to do with shirk.

You need to first define what is shirk and what constitutes shirk.

hawk99

Salaam everyone!
" "
"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. 4. Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?
Peace!

Peace clashncruz,

I don't see how obeying God is shirk.

In my humble opinion I think prostrate and obeisance are interchangeable.

When s-j-d refers to God it is worship
When s-j-d refers to others it is obeisance.
This is because God would not have us worship others.

obeisance

Definition
o?bei?sance

o?bei?sanc?es Plural

NOUN

respectful gesture a gesture of respect or deference, e.g. a bow of the head(formal)
respectful behavior the attitude or behavior of somebody who pays respect or
homage to somebody or something.

peace

Azz

Sorry if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but does anyone else find it the entire tale of Iblis kinda odd? Iblis, even if briefly, seems to argue with Allah. He lashes out and swears to misdirect the will of men and women. Why does Allah entertain Iblis' aims? Unless, being all-knowing, this was an intentional aim/mechanism in Allah's plan for our lives on this Earth - but then, if Iblis is serving such a critical role, why is Iblis going to be punished?

mohf

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident
" "
712

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

Mazhar

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

is about

"Ka" second person, masculine, singular pronoun is for the addresseeIblees. The subject of verb who commanded for paying obeisance is Allah the Exalted.

Iblees had demurred show reluctance to delay or try to avoid doing something because of personal reservations or objections.

Allah the Exalted enquired, asking, "O Ieb'lees! What is that which hampered-restrained-held you back that you might not humble-show obeisance when I directed you for this?"

See the difference, here the command is to an indiidual while in respect of Angels, it is "We pronounced for the Angels". If he was included in Angels, the use of second person pronoun in would be redundant----and the Qur'aan is void of redudency. Iblees belongs to different species than Angels.
And thereat he explains his reasons and reservations for having opted not to pay obeisance.

mirjamnur

Salam

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

mmkhan

Salam
i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

Salaam,

I also agree with mohf. And yes, ILLA makes it clear easily.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Asalamo alaikum,

Those friends who are stuck up with understanding that Iblees is part of Angels may first read about "Exceptions" and their declension. If Iblees were a member of community of Angels, it should be in nominative case and a prepositional phrase "minhum" would have followed it. Iblees is in accusative case

hicham9

Disobeying a direct order from the Supreme Creator Himself is NOT avoiding shirk!!! D
ALLAH (SWT) IS THE ALL-KNOWING ONE, thus, HE knew that Ibliss would question HIS order, and HE knows what this"act of disobedience" will lead to in the end. ALLAH (SWT) knows best.

As for your last question; I would never prostrate myself to anyone, except ALLAH (SWT) ( &#1616. I believe t'here are about fifteen verses in the Quran that praise those who "prostrate to ALLAH."(See 2277, 6162, 351, ...) Showing humility to Allah, bowing down and prostrating to ALLAH alone, is what separates believers from unbelievers. Our LORD alone is worthy of all worship and beseeching. However, if ALLAH (SWT) commands HIS creatures/creation (me included) to do so, OF COURSE "everyone" is supposed to trust in HIS Wise Words and "absolutely" obey HIS order. In other words, ALLAH is the exception. When HE gives us a command, we say " " (We hear and obey). Now, abviously there is free will in Heaven. After all, Ibliss abused his free will to choose to become prideful and that was his downfall.

{ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * }

hawk99

Peace family,

Upon reflection I would have to agree with Mazhar, not so much because of his
linguistic explanation but because of the jinns origin, which is stated as follows

He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said,
"I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
See Also 38/76

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.

peace