Was Satan avoiding shirk when he refused to prostrate towards Adam?

mmkhan

Adam was created in the exact same image and likeness of God. Thus, in effect, Adam was to be revered as God. I don't view Adam as having been merely one mortal person either. I view Adam as a being of flesh and bone, which is different than a body of flesh and blood like we have. If you know the difference between flesh and bone and flesh and blood, then the Adam and Eve narrative can make a lot more sense in an explicit way. It isn't just an allegory. It is a very precise narrative speaking of a literal and tangible reality.

Evidence needed from alQuraan please...

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

kylixguru

Evidence needed from alQuraan please...
The alQuraan recognizes Torah as inspired Words of God.
If you are not comfortable with that, please take that up with Allah and not me.

Also, there is likely plenty in the Qur'an that touches on this subject. I am still learning about the Qur'an. Perhaps you can help me find those evidences?

Is there anywhere in the Qur'an where it talks about what a resurrected body of flesh and bone actually is?

Jafar

Ok so you all probably already know this story. My questions regarding this story are as follows

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. So does it have something to do with customs of the region at that time? Remember in the bible people prostrated themselves before other people all the time, kings, priests, prophets, holy men... is this shirk?
Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?

I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about this story and these questions.

Thank you in advance for you time and patience in go over this material.

Peace!

Your hypothesis start with a suggested notion from Judaist and Wahhabist that bowing / prostrating to other being is an act of disgrace and evil. Which is not true. The idea started from the story found in the book of Daniel (within a bundle called Tanakh) of 3 Israelites who refuse to prostrate and worship an idol setup by Babylonian King.

"Bowing / Prostrating to Adam" might be metaphorical in those Quranic verses.
Because we don't know what's the physical anatomy of a being called Iblis there and whether he can actually perform such act.

The meaning might be to 'pay a respect' towards a new being called "adam" in that verse.
Which he/she/it refuse to do because he/she/it think that he/she/it is far greater than "adam" (arrogant)

Such attitude (arrogance) proved to be the root cause of downfall of great nation / culture in the past.
From the mighty roman empire, great persian empire, caliphates, european colonialist power etc..
Thus the idea that arrogance lead to a downfall can be proven to be true by the observation of the history of humankind.

Thus the main message being told in that verse is
"Don't be arrogant as it can lead to your own downfall and disgrace, respect others then other will respect you"

I have no problems of paying respect to anyone..

Salam / Peace

mohf

SJD / Sujud / SaJDa / ... does not mean a physical prostration. This is a traditional understanding. This understanding creates many contradictions in the Quran (also see 124 and 12100 and many other verses) and must thus be discarded.

SJD in the context of the story of Adam and Iblis means to accept authority. Please see 230 where Allah says he will place a Khalifa, which clearly refers to Adam (234). God is asking Al Malaika, including Iblis to accept that Adam will have a higher authority and that they have to obey him.

This is my personal understanding.

Renegade

God is asking Al Malaika, including Iblis to accept that Adam will have a higher authority and that they have to obey him.

Where does the Quran say that Iblis was one of Al Malaika?

mohf

Where does the Quran say that Iblis was one of Al Malaika?

Well, I have to say that this is my personal understanding I got from 234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

I am not sure, I may be wrong, but doesn't this verse make clear that Iblis is included in Al Malaika? Otherwise, Allah wouldn't have said AlMalaika because it would make a contradiction.

Mazhar

Well, I have to say that this is my personal understanding I got from 234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

I am not sure, I may be wrong, but doesn't this verse make clear that Iblis is included in Al Malaika? Otherwise, Allah wouldn't have said AlMalaika because it would make a contradiction.

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident

" "
712

mirjamnur

Salam Mazhar

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident

" "
712

How should be the phrase if the exception relates to the angels?? it will be not the same? thank you for clarification- it's very interesting- because this Aya let me to accept, that Iblis was one from the malaikas , i.e the malaikas are jinns. (Sura kahf)
peace

Bigmo

Salaam everyone!

I hope you are all doing well.

I have had this question concerning a story in the Qur'an for a while now and I would be very interested to see what every one here has to say about it.

These are the verses of the story I am referring to

" "
"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234

" "
"And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated." 711

" "
" said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."" 712

" "
"Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated." 1531

" "
" said, O Iblees, what is with you that you are not with those who prostrate?" 1532

" "
"He said, "Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."" 1533

" "
"And when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"" 1761

" "
"(Allah) said "O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?"" 3875

Ok so you all probably already know this story. My questions regarding this story are as follows

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. So does it have something to do with customs of the region at that time? Remember in the bible people prostrated themselves before other people all the time, kings, priests, prophets, holy men... is this shirk?
Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?

I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about this story and these questions.

Thank you in advance for you time and patience in go over this material.

Peace!

Maybe you should first start looking at what is shirk since I am not sure what prostrating to Adam has anything to do with shirk.

You need to first define what is shirk and what constitutes shirk.

hawk99

Salaam everyone!
" "
"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. 4. Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?
Peace!

Peace clashncruz,

I don't see how obeying God is shirk.

In my humble opinion I think prostrate and obeisance are interchangeable.

When s-j-d refers to God it is worship
When s-j-d refers to others it is obeisance.
This is because God would not have us worship others.

obeisance

Definition
o?bei?sance

o?bei?sanc?es Plural

NOUN

respectful gesture a gesture of respect or deference, e.g. a bow of the head(formal)
respectful behavior the attitude or behavior of somebody who pays respect or
homage to somebody or something.

peace

Azz

Sorry if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but does anyone else find it the entire tale of Iblis kinda odd? Iblis, even if briefly, seems to argue with Allah. He lashes out and swears to misdirect the will of men and women. Why does Allah entertain Iblis' aims? Unless, being all-knowing, this was an intentional aim/mechanism in Allah's plan for our lives on this Earth - but then, if Iblis is serving such a critical role, why is Iblis going to be punished?

mohf

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident
" "
712

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

Mazhar

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

is about

"Ka" second person, masculine, singular pronoun is for the addresseeIblees. The subject of verb who commanded for paying obeisance is Allah the Exalted.

Iblees had demurred show reluctance to delay or try to avoid doing something because of personal reservations or objections.

Allah the Exalted enquired, asking, "O Ieb'lees! What is that which hampered-restrained-held you back that you might not humble-show obeisance when I directed you for this?"

See the difference, here the command is to an indiidual while in respect of Angels, it is "We pronounced for the Angels". If he was included in Angels, the use of second person pronoun in would be redundant----and the Qur'aan is void of redudency. Iblees belongs to different species than Angels.
And thereat he explains his reasons and reservations for having opted not to pay obeisance.

mirjamnur

Salam

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

mmkhan

Salam
i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

Salaam,

I also agree with mohf. And yes, ILLA makes it clear easily.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Asalamo alaikum,

Those friends who are stuck up with understanding that Iblees is part of Angels may first read about "Exceptions" and their declension. If Iblees were a member of community of Angels, it should be in nominative case and a prepositional phrase "minhum" would have followed it. Iblees is in accusative case

hicham9

Disobeying a direct order from the Supreme Creator Himself is NOT avoiding shirk!!! D
ALLAH (SWT) IS THE ALL-KNOWING ONE, thus, HE knew that Ibliss would question HIS order, and HE knows what this"act of disobedience" will lead to in the end. ALLAH (SWT) knows best.

As for your last question; I would never prostrate myself to anyone, except ALLAH (SWT) ( &#1616. I believe t'here are about fifteen verses in the Quran that praise those who "prostrate to ALLAH."(See 2277, 6162, 351, ...) Showing humility to Allah, bowing down and prostrating to ALLAH alone, is what separates believers from unbelievers. Our LORD alone is worthy of all worship and beseeching. However, if ALLAH (SWT) commands HIS creatures/creation (me included) to do so, OF COURSE "everyone" is supposed to trust in HIS Wise Words and "absolutely" obey HIS order. In other words, ALLAH is the exception. When HE gives us a command, we say " " (We hear and obey). Now, abviously there is free will in Heaven. After all, Ibliss abused his free will to choose to become prideful and that was his downfall.

{ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * }

hawk99

Peace family,

Upon reflection I would have to agree with Mazhar, not so much because of his
linguistic explanation but because of the jinns origin, which is stated as follows

He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said,
"I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
See Also 38/76

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.

peace

kylixguru

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.
This is a very interesting post to me. It triggers some thoughts I'll share, for what it's worth.

My understanding of the angelic hierarchies is that angels are a spiritual creation, which explains the aspect of being created from fire. There is what is called the baptism of fire that Jesus brought, which was exemplified when he laid his hands upon his disciples heads and commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost. At this point they experienced the ordinance coupled with their spiritual birth. The baptism of fire and spiritual birth, or put another way, the process of spiritual resurrection, is the means by which the angelic hosts are created. This spiritual birth where the law of carnal commandments was raised to the spiritual level and carried out spiritually is the ushering in of spiritual life that previously was not generally available. Spiritual resurrection is what Jesus brought anew that was not generally among the Jews, who were still on the schoolmaster of the carnal laws and commandments.

So, the creation of the lesser angels had its beginning in the very beginning of the 5th millennium. The level of spiritual glory available at that time was symbolized by "fishes". Jesus called his disciples to be "fishers of men" and when He appeared in a resurrected body of flesh and bone to his disciples they recognized him with some awkwardness, fear and trepidation because they had difficulty to see him. What did Jesus say? He said "marvel not, for a spirit alone has not flesh, but see that I can partake of these cooked fishes". He's saying "I am more than just a spirit, I am resurrected in the flesh". But, what he was talking about is they themselves and all those who believe on them become members of the resurrected body of flesh and bone of Jesus. This is what Paul tried to say in Ephesians 530. Paul is saying "Duh, don't you get the mystery here? We ourselves are the members of the flesh and bone body of Christ."

This is what Paul's eyes were opened to see that completely blew him away. It was all something that he grasped as a totally new way of seeing things. He saw that they as a collective body were fulfilling the unfolding of the creation narrative. Paul understood that all of the aspects in the creation account pertained to people. He saw Christianity itself as the manifestation of "fishes" being created on Day 5 and that together as a collective they were the manifestation of Christ's bodily resurrection in the flesh as a tangible reality that lived and breathed among humanity.

So, back to my original thought. The angelic creation began when Jesus introduced anew the process of spiritual birth/resurrection and raised humanity up to the spiritual level. Now, it wasn't just "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not be angry". Now it wasn't just "thou shalt not commit adultery" but "thou shalt not look upon another to lust after them" because that was adultery in the heart. All those individuals who stepped up and believed in implementing the carnal commandments as a foundation and to raise it up to the spiritual level are the angelic hosts. They were created by way of the baptism of fire of the Holy Ghost.

So, this all started on Day 5 (5th Millennium) with the "fishes" and we can see a steady process of evolution from there. Next came the creation of the "fowls" who were not bound down and limited by the "waters". They were allowed to fly freely into the heavens and be unbound by the governance of men, which is what the waters represent. (See Rev 1715) And, eventually, you have the Roman Empire crumbling and breaking down and giving way for a greater level of liberty, which allows dry land to appear. Thus, in Day 6 you have the coming forth of "creatures" that are of a higher order of spiritual understanding and glory. This progresses until up to the last part of Day 6 when that spiritual evolution gets to a point of culmination with "man" (Adam) being created.

This who narrative of Creation is all understood as a pattern or as a blueprint for how the spiritual creation takes place. It appears to me that Islam is the manifestation of the "fowls of the heavens" because Islam also came forth in the 5th Millennia and the two primary levels of spiritual glory available on Day 5 of Creation is the "fishes" and the "fowls". Without any doubt the Christians are fishes, but it is less apparent to me that Islam identifies themselves with free flying living beings that roam the heavens. But, so far as I can tell, most all Islamic nations have their own independent governmental systems. Thus, they are their own source of governance, which is the heavenly realm.

So, when we come to the creation of Adam, the context is we have an abundant amount of "spiritual life" manifested as a whole cosmology of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", "beasts", etc. that are all created from the fires of spiritual rebirth to that level of spiritual glory. They are all, in many respects, angelic creations. They are the means by which angelic forces are ministering to humanity in an effort to bring "life" at some level of glory to them.

Unfortunately, it appears many if not most were a bit egocentric because when God brings the evolutionary process to its apex in bringing forth "man" in the exact same image, stature, likeness, etc. to God they recoil and do not wish to place themselves under the dominion of "man". They view themselves as having been created by fire, which is the spiritual resurrection of the Holy Ghost. And, they see Adam as simply being an ordinary man who is not composed of any spiritual life, which actually was not true. God also breathed into Adam the "breath of life" which was also the same process of spiritual rebirth/resurrection, only in Adam's case it was the complete fullness of the Father. In their pride they blinded themselves to consider the level of spiritual glory God gave to Adam to be foolishness. They only viewed his fleshly component and rejected his spiritual component.

Thus, many of the angels who had been given a level of spiritual glory, rejected Adam and vowed to fight against Him. Paul talks about this part of the narrative in Romans 11 starting about verse 18. He talks about how when the foundation of the new creation was being laid that God was among the people in the flesh and that they were all offered the full understanding of the fullness of the Father. But, they considered it foolishness. And, even though they knew Adam and were personally acquainted with Him, they did not glorify Him for who He truly was. They rejected him. And, it says, they instead held to the worship of the "creeping things" etc. This simply means that they wished to hold to their lesser level of spiritual glory that the "creeping things" symbolized. They only went so far and simply could not spiritually evolve any farther than that. They were blinded and couldn't see that in God's eyes this is what they were actually doing. They fancied themselves as the apex of God's creation and ended up rejecting the very thing their whole religion was geared to point them to.

Look at the Gospel of Jesus. It was all about the "Good News" to prepare the people to accept the Father's Kingdom that would eventually be established. To whom does God give dominion over all things? He gives that to Adam. So, all of these "fishes" were being taught to look for the future advent of the new Adam who shall bring in a new Creation and give you a place in "heaven" with Him. But, when He does finally come, they reject Him and turn away, thus denying themselves the very object of their whole religion. So, instead of being brought into a state of paradise, they collectively become the "snake in the grass" and bite Adam's heel and cause Him to fall back (transgress). But, Adam doesn't remain down. That same heel shall crush their head because Adam is redeemed and overcomes His fall and He does gain the victory over the Kingdom He is given.

So, the source of the Satanic hosts that fight against Adam having His dominion are those who are of the various levels of spiritual creation that lead up to the evolution of Adam. They are jealous and they do not want to accept that a greater level of light and knowledge (spiritual resurrection) has been given to Adam. They consider Him and his alleged knowledge and authority are foolishness.

So, at the end of the day, here's where it is at right now for everyone. All those who have a level of belief in God and who have devoted themselves are to some degree of glory a resurrected being on the spiritual level. We have a wide array of spiritual life in the form of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", etc. We have Day 6 now behind us so we should already have the manifestation of "man" having been placed in a new Garden of Eden and who was given dominion over all of the existing spiritual life. We should see Him tasked to catalog and "name" all of those "creatures". We should also see Him having a time of trouble where His dominion is rejected by most and we should see the "angels" rebel and fight against Him, despite the fact that He is there to bring them all into Paradise and fulfill the hopes and ambitions of their whole spiritual faith. It's a terrible irony.

So, Satan was a collective body of angels who combined against Adam and who refused to glorify Him as the apex of God's Creation to whom God gave dominion over all things. In short, Satan is who gets his head crushed for shooting not himself in the foot, but in shooting his King in the foot, so to speak. Thus, figuratively speaking, Satan shot himself in the foot because of his foolish pride and jealousy. Adam was actually a being of greater glory and of the fire but Satan refused to acknowledge this glory and claimed Adam was merely of mud. However, we know that Satan was a liar from the beginning. So, we shouldn't believe that his point of view to claim what he did of Adam was the correct point of view. Satan simply failed to recognize that Adam was a superior being in every way because of his own pride and arrogance.

This very narrative is playing out literally right now as the cycle repeats. A new foundation for the "world to come" is already underway, but Adam is in a fallen state and Cain (Lucifer) has usurped the throne and is currently trying to take all of the Father's glory to himself. This is why there is such evil and corruption in governmental powers that were originally ordained to establish peace and righteousness in the earth. Adam needs to be recognized for who and what He truly is and empowered to pull down Cain from his usurpation. But, this cannot happen until all of the angels awaken to the reality of who and what Adam is and give Him the oblation that God ordained Him to receive. Then, they can assist Adam in establishing the Kingdom in victory and usher in a golden age of peace. I believe Islam will be of great assistance in assisting the Father to gain the victory.

Momeen

what I believe is "Sajda" referred in all this ayats is for respect, but cursing of iblis was for his arrogance and not sajda.

wallah ho alam

as I am in shariyat of prophet Muhammed(s), and he never demanded sajda for him self, or never did any sajda to any human, so even I would not do that, no matter it is for respect or what ever definition it might hold.