Day & Night Phenomenon described in the quran
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Peace, FearGod.
Just one verse from the quran is enough to refute your 3 false statements
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
They didn't see the universe as one entity before the separation and it wasn't known in the 7th century and it is perfect and true statement.
Actually, the Quran isn't very specific on this issue either, which is why there's a contradicting account in the same book!
"Then He (Allah) directed Himself to the heaven and it is 'dukhan'/smoke, so He said to it and to the earth, 'Come both, willingly or unwillingly.' They both said, 'We come willingly.'" (Q. 4111)
According to this passage, which is also in the Quran, the Universe didn't start off as one entity that Allah pulled apart - it started off as two separate entities that Allah joined together... And I won't even touch on the Quran's ridiculous assertion that the Universe was "smoke" prior to its modern development. That factor is clear enough.
So lets start the challenge and in your own language
Allah causeth the (revolution, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (2444)
I asked you before, in this same thread, how the night and day 'flip' and 'revolve' around the Earth, and you never answered my question. Asking someone else about this same ridiculous concept doesn't fix the issue either. If you can, I'd still like for you to answer my question. In reading this passage from the Quran, is it saying that the Earth is flipping (or rotating)? Or is it saying that the night and day are flipping? This question makes all the difference when it comes to determining the book's degree of accuracy or nonsense.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Actually, the Quran isn't very specific on this issue either, which is why there's a contradicting account in the same book!
"Then He (Allah) directed Himself to the heaven and it is 'dukhan'/smoke, so He said to it and to the earth, 'Come both, willingly or unwillingly.' They both said, 'We come willingly.'" (Q. 4111)
According to this passage, which is also in the Quran, the Universe didn't start off as one entity that Allah pulled apart - it started off as two separate entities that Allah joined together... And I won't even touch on the Quran's ridiculous assertion that the Universe was "smoke" prior to its modern development. That factor is clear enough.
Where is the contradiction ?
One entity and smoke both are discussed in modern cosmology as the origin of our universe
http//i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/25/article-0-15334C62000005DC-14_964x710.jpg
I asked you before, in this same thread, how the night and day 'flip' and 'revolve' around the Earth, and you never answered my question. Asking someone else about this same ridiculous concept doesn't fix the issue either. If you can, I'd still like for you to answer my question. In reading this passage from the Quran, is it saying that the Earth is flipping (or rotating)? Or is it saying that the night and day are flipping? This question makes all the difference when it comes to determining the book's degree of accuracy or nonsense.
Peace,
Ahmad
i have explained it to you but you don't want to understand,did you see the night (darkness) moving,it is OK if we want to believe the day (sun) to be moving but the darkness (night) moves.
the verses is describing the day night phenomenon and not the planets movements.
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Peace, FearGod.
One entity and smoke both are discussed in modern cosmology as the origin of our universe
Ummmm, are you being serious?! There was no "smoke" at the beginning of the Universe! Who told you this nonsense? Have you ever looked through a science (particularly astronomy or cosmology) book? If you're really trying to propose that the Universe actually came from "smoke", or that smoke was anywhere around during the formation of the Universe, then there's no point in us having this discussion, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about...
the verses is describing the day night phenomenon and not the planets movements.
Again, the problem is, THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION! The Quran clearly states that the day and night rotate, not that the planets rotate. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like, based on modern scientific research. However, the book says what it says. Obviously, according to you, whoever wrote the Quran wasn't clear enough about what he meant.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Ummmm, are you being serious?! There was no "smoke" at the beginning of the Universe! Who told you this nonsense? Have you ever looked through a science (particularly astronomy or cosmology) book? If you're really trying to propose that the Universe actually came from "smoke", or that smoke was anywhere around during the formation of the Universe, then there's no point in us having this discussion, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about...
i don't believe that we're in the 21th century and there is still some one ignorants about simple informations in cosmology
Watch this video it may help you to understand that there is still smoke and there is still new stars born from it.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=80eMTnnLjhs
Again, the problem is, THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION! The Quran clearly states that the day and night rotate, not that the planets rotate. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like, based on modern scientific research. However, the book says what it says. Obviously, according to you, whoever wrote the Quran wasn't clear enough about what he meant.
Peace,
Ahmad
The problem is one of 2,either you have a difficulty to understand or you don't want to understand.
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Peace,
Maybe you both look in books from different schools?
Relax a lil', it aint like the world's gonna fall apart ya know.
Edit ... over yer little issue. Maybe the world will fall apart due to other reasons, God only knows.
God bless you
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Peace FearGod,
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places
a curse upon those who refuse to understand.Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs
and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.and
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without
justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe.
And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but
when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the
consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.and
Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder,
or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time
for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all
the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of
their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled.
GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.and finally
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your way, and to me is my way."
GOD BLESS
peace
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Peace, FearGod.
i don't believe that we're in the 21th century and there is still some one ignorants about simple informations in cosmology
Watch this video it may help you to understand that there is still smoke and there is still new stars born from it.
It appears that YOU are the ignorant one. Can you not understand that "gas" and "smoke" are two different things?
The problem is one of 2,either you have a difficulty to understand or you don't want to understand.
I'm not going to debate the second point anymore with you, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about... Do some research. Until you understand what you're trying to assert, then this is a pointless discussion.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
It appears that YOU are the ignorant one. Can you not understand that "gas" and "smoke" are two different things?
Your problem is even more than ignorance.
We have 3 states, gas,liquid and solid.
Now you are confused if the smoke is liquid,solid or gas
Just try to touch the smoke and you can know if it is touchable and feels like liquid,solid or gas.
You have a big problem,but i'll try to help you a little.Try to search for the word "gas" in old scriptures,then if you found one,then you may start to think & understand.
I'm not going to debate the second point anymore with you, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about... Do some research. Until you understand what you're trying to assert, then this is a pointless discussion.
Peace,
Ahmad
i was afraid that you don't want to understand but i realize now that you have some difficulties to understand,so yes,debating with you is pointless since even you don't know that gas is a new word in our vocabulary.
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Peace, FearGod.
We have 3 states, gas,liquid and solid.
Now you are confused if the smoke is liquid,solid or gas
Just try to touch the smoke and you can know if it is touchable and feels like liquid,solid or gas.
You have a big problem,but i'll try to help you a little.Try to search for the word "gas" in old scriptures,then if you found one,then you may start to think & understand.
You clearly haven't studied the Quran, because it conflicts with the most basic of scientific ideas concerning cosmology. Let's look at the entire passage, so we can try to authenticate your position.
Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)
Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)
Are you getting this now?
Smoke is comprised of organic particles and burning material fragments, resulting in the expansive release of heated carbon. If you're proposing that this is the Quran's description of the big bang, then this creates a major problem - THERE ARE NO ORGANIC MATERIALS! So, where did the smoke come from? Again, "smoke" and "gas" are two entirely different things. If God is the Universal creator, and he also authored the Quran, then he should've already known this, and he should've cleared up the differences between the two. Otherwise, you run into clear discrepancies like this one... In addition, if you're asserting that the Quran is talking about the big bang here, then where did the Earth come from? Is the Quran claiming that the Earth was here, along with hills and vegetation ('sustenance', BEFORE the big bang?
If you read the Quran's 49th chapter (surah), from the 9th to the 11th verse (aya), you'll see that this is exactly what it's saying! And that, sir, is complete nonsense.
i was afraid that you don't want to understand but i realize now that you have some difficulties to understand,so yes,debating with you is pointless since even you don't know that gas is a new word in our vocabulary.
Ummm, ok... Anyway, the point is very clear; you're just unwilling to grasp it. Here's it put simply you're reading the passage and making your own interpretation of it, while I'm reading the passage exactly as it's written. Simple enough?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
You clearly haven't studied the Quran, because it conflicts with the most basic of scientific ideas concerning cosmology. Let's look at the entire passage, so we can try to authenticate your position.
Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)
Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)
Are you getting this now?
Smoke is comprised of organic particles and burning material fragments, resulting in the expansive release of heated carbon. If you're proposing that this is the Quran's description of the big bang, then this creates a major problem - THERE ARE NO ORGANIC MATERIALS! So, where did the smoke come from? Again, "smoke" and "gas" are two entirely different things. If God is the Universal creator, and he also authored the Quran, then he should've already known this, and he should've cleared up the differences between the two. Otherwise, you run into clear discrepancies like this one... In addition, if you're asserting that the Quran is talking about the big bang here, then where did the Earth come from? Is the Quran claiming that the Earth was here, along with hills and vegetation ('sustenance', BEFORE the big bang?
If you read the Quran's 49th chapter (surah), from the 9th to the 11th verse (aya), you'll see that this is exactly what it's saying! And that, sir, is complete nonsense.
Ummm, ok... Anyway, the point is very clear; you're just unwilling to grasp it. Here's it put simply you're reading the passage and making your own interpretation of it, while I'm reading the passage exactly as it's written. Simple enough?
Peace,
Ahmad
http//cseligman.com/text/galaxies/m82infrared.jpg
Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars
The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.
Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm
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Peace,
Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?
It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.
God bless you
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Peace, FearGod.
Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars
The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.
Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm
I get this, and this is NOT what we're talking about... Compositional elements are all derived from hydrogen, including helium. You're talking about elemental particles in space TODAY, which didn't contain the same factors prior to the big bang. Again, we're not talking about now; we're talking about billions of years ago, when there were no organic particles and (according to Islamic clerics and the general Muslim populace) no matter, since Allah created everything ex nihilo (out of nothing).
So, again, DURING THAT TIME, where did the "smoke" come from?
And, again, if you're proposing that the Universe was created out of smoke (since this is obviously the "gas" that you're trying to infer in your analysis of the big bang, which is completely wrong), how did this happen AFTER the Earth was already present and populated? How was the sky (or 'heavens' still "smoke" while the Earth already had mountains, plants, etc.? How did God separate the Earth from the sky (or 'heavens', if the Earth is still in space? Is the Quran trying to imply that the Earth is somehow separate from the Universe, or was the Earth formerly separate from the Universe when God decided to put the two (separate) objects together?
Are you grasping this now?
Weighing the Quran on the basis of philosophy, especially when further defined and characterized by its outstanding literary fixtures, is fine. However, trying to present it as some sort of 'science book' doesn't work, because it clearly doesn't add up. You're trying to force the Quran to agree with modern science, when it clearly doesn't.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Man of Faith.
Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?
It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.
Exactly! This is all I was trying to point out, but it seems like some people don't want to grasp this concept...
Gas = Gas
Smoke = Smoke
Gas =/= SmokePeace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?
It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.
God bless you
Peace, Man of Faith.
Exactly! This is all I was trying to point out, but it seems like some people don't want to grasp this concept...
Gas = Gas
Smoke = Smoke
Gas =/= SmokePeace,
Ahmad
http//cseligman.com/text/galaxies/m82infrared.jpg
Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars
The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.
Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm
Salaam,
I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language. It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another. The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.
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Peace, FearGod.
I get this, and this is NOT what we're talking about... Compositional elements are all derived from hydrogen, including helium. You're talking about elemental particles in space TODAY, which didn't contain the same factors prior to the big bang. Again, we're not talking about now; we're talking about billions of years ago, when there were no organic particles and (according to Islamic clerics and the general Muslim populace) no matter, since Allah created everything ex nihilo (out of nothing).
So, again, DURING THAT TIME, where did the "smoke" come from?
And, again, if you're proposing that the Universe was created out of smoke (since this is obviously the "gas" that you're trying to infer in your analysis of the big bang, which is completely wrong), how did this happen AFTER the Earth was already present and populated? How was the sky (or 'heavens' still "smoke" while the Earth already had mountains, plants, etc.? How did God separate the Earth from the sky (or 'heavens', if the Earth is still in space? Is the Quran trying to imply that the Earth is somehow separate from the Universe, or was the Earth formerly separate from the Universe when God decided to put the two (separate) objects together?
Are you grasping this now?
Weighing the Quran on the basis of philosophy, especially when further defined and characterized by its outstanding literary fixtures, is fine. However, trying to present it as some sort of 'science book' doesn't work, because it clearly doesn't add up. You're trying to force the Quran to agree with modern science, when it clearly doesn't.
Peace,
Ahmad
Where did i say the big bang?
Read the verse carefully.
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (4111)
So,the earth has been already formed similar to the new born star and at that stage the sky was still smoke.exactly the case when a new star born.
The origin of the universe is different than the born of earth and the status of the sky at that moment.
Did you understand ?
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Salaam,
I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language. It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another. The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.
Salam Brother,
Thats it exactly,its about natural phenomenon and signs described in the langauge of the quran.
Peace
FearGod -
peace AB, all,
I haven't been reading this thread, but I happened to notice your post, see the following
Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out
No, the verse does not say that.
I find it interesting you use words such as "pretty simple" and "clearly" yet you make a mistake in what the verse is saying.
Please try again.
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Peace, supportpeacenotwar.
I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language.
Poetic language? The Quran says that the sky (universe/heavens) was "smoke". That's not poetic, it's wrong... FearGod is proposing that the sky was literally smoke, and then, to justify his position, he is attempting to propose that "smoke" and "gas" are the same thing. They're not.
It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another.
Isn't this a good thing? Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. The fact that it's not static shows that scientists are constantly perfecting it; they're constantly testing their theories to make the most valid determination of what's real and what's not... One of my questions from the very beginning was, "If the Quran proposes a scientific assertion within its pages, and modern science proves that assertion to be false, what should we believe - what science says or what the scriptures say?" That's an important question.
Science proposes an idea of what it recognizes as "truth". If this 'truth' is proven to be false, then scientists throw away that idea and come up with something more accurate and verifiable. Religion proposes an idea of what it recognizes as truth. However, if this 'truth' is proven to be false, theists dismiss all of the scientific proofs and assert that their ideology is undoubtedly true, regardless of what the evidence says... You don't see anything wrong with this position?
The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.
That makes sense, when viewed from the perspective of primitive superstitious people. However, we are in an age of science and reason now. If the Quran was written for the 7th-century Arabs, then your claim would be valid. Yet, Muslims generally assert that the Quran was written for everyone not merely for ancient cultures, but for future generations as well... If the Quran said that the Universe was "ghaz"/gas, then we wouldn't even be having this debate. The problem is the use of the word "dukhan"/smoke, which is totally incorrect. Indeed, I see the context, and I think it's interesting. However, being interesting doesn't make it correct.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Where did i say the big bang?
You're back-tracking. Look through the thread, and you'll see exactly where you said that this refers to the "big bang".
Read the verse carefully.
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (4111)
So,the earth has been already formed similar to the new born star and at that stage the sky was still smoke.exactly the case when a new star born.
So, when are you proposing that the heaven (universe) was "dukhan"/smoke? Again, the Quran says this
Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)
Afterwards, the Quran says this
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)
I'm not sure how you interpret this passage; but it looks to me like the Quran is claiming that the heaven ("samaa"/sky) was smoke ("dukhan" AFTER "He (e.g. God) placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance". That's where your explanation completely falls through.
The origin of the universe is different than the born of earth and the status of the sky at that moment.
If we're not talking about the origin of the Universe, then what "moment" are you referring to? When is the Quran claiming that God told the heaven and the Earth to 'come together willingly or unwillingly'?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Wakas.
No, the verse does not say that.
I find it interesting you use words such as "pretty simple" and "clearly" yet you make a mistake in what the verse is saying.
The passage says this
Say "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient." (Q. 419-11)
Please tell us how you interpret this passage. It seems "pretty simple" to me; but I could be 'mistaken', and I'm more than willing to hear your explanation (and interpretation) of this event. Please share it. Thanks.
Peace,
Ahmad
