Was Satan avoiding shirk when he refused to prostrate towards Adam?
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Peace Mazhar,
Are you saying that angels are made from water? Is it not accepted that the angels
existed before the the universe? And yes we are biological entities that come from water,
but are angels biological entities like us? Please make clear your assertions and if you are unable to I would understand because the subject is so mysterious.Salamun alaika,
You also translateed
And from water we made all
living things.does not grant exception to a single entity. is its adjectival description. Other than Allah the Exalted all that exists is . How can we assume that the Angels who are living species were not created with water after such categorical statement of Allah the Exalted?
I hope you have seen the link to find water in the creation of species Jinn.
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The way you stated it above had me believe that God needs us to gain a victory, which I do not believe. God is victorious with or without mankind.
Qur'an is from God. I do believe God uses prophets and messengers, but even without them it does not make it impossible for him. I just see God as not needing us but, us needing him.
I suppose I miss understood because I do not believe in John's revelation. I do believe in judgement day, but not in the Armageddon that Christians and some Muslims do.
My reply about the Pisces goes along with the symbolism you were pointing out. Yet I still believe a lot of that is rooted in pagan symbolism, adopted by Paul. I am not saying your right or wrong, to each his own. I was Christian for almost 33 years, I understand the passages. My brother in law is a born again Christian, he talks about this Baptism of fire every time he sees me...lol However, he does it without an open mind.
When they were teaching the class they stated pure light, without any darkness like the human. Then again I came from the teaching of original sin, so man could never be fully "light". The only difference besides that was "free will"
Does it take away from it that Mohammed assisted God in making the Qur'an available to the world?
Why do you say it this way as if it would have more meaning to me or I might be offended. Prophet Mohammed means nothing more to me than what Prophet Jesus means to me. I am not one of those who holds him above all others in creation. Just as much as I don't believe in hadith, I am not sure I trust everything that is claimed to have come out of Prophet Jesus's mouth either. Meaning stories or dreams passed down. I love them both and I don't want to have something wrongly attributed to them. Hope that makes sense.
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The way you stated it above had me believe that God needs us to gain a victory, which I do not believe. God is victorious with or without mankind.
My understanding of God does not separate Him from mankind.
What kind of a Kingdom would the Father's Kingdom be with zero citizens in it?Qur'an is from God. I do believe God uses prophets and messengers, but even without them it does not make it impossible for him. I just see God as not needing us but, us needing him.
Yes, of course, but when the time comes for Zion to be redeemed, don't you think the true believers of Islam would be friendly and supportive of such as an expression of their true belief in God?Aren't true Muslims also looking forward to the coming of the Father's Kingdom as well?
I suppose I miss understood because I do not believe in John's revelation. I do believe in judgement day, but not in the Armageddon that Christians and some Muslims do.
There is a basis in the Mosaic Covenant where there are certain punitive terms that shall have to be fulfilled before the children of Israel can be cleared of all of the negative consequences for their former adultery against Jehovah. Unfortunately, Armageddon as described in scripture is a pretty clear match up to what Jehovah said would befall Israel if she turned away from the Law and walked contrary to her Lord. The good news is once all of this punitive humbling is over, there shall be a small remnant of Israel that remains, which shall be the purified, refined and proven seed stock from which a whole new cycle of Creation shall be birthed from. These are who shall establish the Father's Kingdom and it shall be a blessing to all the righteous. I am certain that there shall be many Muslims who shall provide aid and comfort to help this small remnant of Israel to rise up from their humiliation. There are also many Muslims who shall be on the other end of things who are being instruments of punishment upon the Israelites as well.My reply about the Pisces goes along with the symbolism you were pointing out. Yet I still believe a lot of that is rooted in pagan symbolism, adopted by Paul. I am not saying your right or wrong, to each his own. I was Christian for almost 33 years, I understand the passages. My brother in law is a born again Christian, he talks about this Baptism of fire every time he sees me...lol However, he does it without an open mind.
When they were teaching the class they stated pure light, without any darkness like the human. Then again I came from the teaching of original sin, so man could never be fully "light". The only difference besides that was "free will"
When a person is "born again" they become an entirely new creation in Christ. And, I'm not talking about an emotional rush that modern Christians get because someone else picked up the tab for their sins and they can just go on sinning without a conscience about it. This is a counterfeit spiritual birth to a seducing spirit that seeks to corrupt the pure Gospel. A real genuine conversion unto Christ means that you truly have become transformed and quickened in your inner person so that you no longer have a desire to sin and so that you are made clean and ready for remarriage to God as a virgin bride, holy and pure. So, again, my position is not contradicted when you take into account what the real intent of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was originally intended for.Why do you say it this way as if it would have more meaning to me or I might be offended. Prophet Mohammed means nothing more to me than what Prophet Jesus means to me. I am not one of those who holds him above all others in creation. Just as much as I don't believe in hadith, I am not sure I trust everything that is claimed to have come out of Prophet Jesus's mouth either. Meaning stories or dreams passed down. I love them both and I don't want to have something wrongly attributed to them. Hope that makes sense.
I was just trying to say that it doesn't diminish God an any way to acknowledge that God works through the instrumentality of people to perform the things that He does. And, I was using an example of how God worked through Mohammed to produce the Qur'an.
I think I understand you well enough that I'm comfortable leaving off, unless you have further questions. But, perhaps we should start our own discussion thread since we are starting to stray from the original post.
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Peace kylixguru,
In Islamic terms you are paraphasing "spiritual growth". Believers nurture the soul by
commemorating, remembering and by observing the practices revealed to
the messengers of God. Again, born again is "equivalent" to acknowledging that
there is One GOD, then to follow up by putting into practice the Quran, this is Islam
the one religion decreed for all (submission to God alone) be you christian, jew, muslim
so forth and so on.You shall commemorate the name of your Lord, to come ever closer and closer to Him.
ONE GOD, ONE DEEN
peace
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Salamun alaika,
You also translateed
And from water we made all
living things.
does not grant exception to a single entity. is its adjectival description. Other than Allah the Exalted all that exists is . How can we assume that the Angels who are living species were not created with water after such categorical statement of Allah the Exalted?
I hope you have seen the link to find water in the creation of species Jinn.Peace Mazhar,
While your analogy is sound, the actual circumstances suggest something different.
What I mean by that is yes, all living things come from water but all living things can
be observed or deduced while angels cannot be observed, they being part of the
unseen while water can be seen, therefore, angels must be composed of something
other than water.No I have not seen the link and I would like for you to make it available again.
peace
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Since angels blend into another dimension they are invisible no matter substance. But the Quran says Ibliss is made of fire, but it does not prove that all angels are made of fire. As far as I know, there is no absolute fact for this question. It does not matter really though. Fire is not a substance by the way while water is.
It could mean the angels have no mass and thus able to take any ethereal shape. But fire needs fuel and oxygen though, so angels (or at least Ibliss) must be relying on those substances to survive. I wonder how you can get a living being out of fire, but to God everything is of course possible (duh).
Talk about going deep now mr MoF. Now it is time to sleep. Good night!
God bless you
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Since angels blend into another dimension they are invisible no matter substance. But the Quran says Ibliss is made of fire, but it does not prove that all angels are made of fire. As far as I know, there is no absolute fact for this question. It does not matter really though. Fire is not a substance by the way while water is.
It could mean the angels have no mass and thus able to take any ethereal shape. But fire needs fuel and oxygen though, so angels (or at least Ibliss) must be relying on those substances to survive. I wonder how you can get a living being out of fire, but to God everything is of course possible (duh).
Talk about going deep now mr MoF. Now it is time to sleep. Good night!
God bless you
The dimension of "life" that is born of fire is clearly spoken of as pertaining to the baptism of fire, which is of the Holy Ghost, which is spiritual birth and thus spiritual life. It is only a mystery if we don't pay attention to the dimension holy writ clearly outlines in this regard.
Spiritual life is the dimension of "life" that Jesus Christ brought anew and is the resurrection that he brought to mankind. Thus, the Qur'an is correct to put the focus on this rather than what Christians typically focus on.
Spiritual life pertains to the dimension of the truth and light that a person has in their mind that they are committed to live their life by. Some have a greater level of spiritual glory than others; therefore, there are lesser and greater ranks of angelic hosts. As I have said before, the Creation Account is the master blueprint for how the spiritual creation is organized and it is also the schedule upon which it is manifested.
For example, look at the reaction Christians/Protestants ("fishes" and "creeping things" have toward Mormons ("man". They laugh and mock and consider it blasphemy that someone like Joseph Smith Jr. (or any of his successors) would have the audacity to purport that God would speak directly to them and to give them the "keys of the Kingdom" and to give them dominion over all things and command them to perform the ordinances of the temple, including the giving of a new "name", to all of the souls who have ever lived.
Christians and Protestants have a degree of spiritual life within them but they arrogantly view their particular brand of spiritual life as the only legitimate form of spiritual life. And, it is true that they do have a degree of light and truth; therefore, they are angelic beings born of fire by way of the Holy Ghost. So, these passages which appear to be mysterious can easily be explained in a practical manner as I have just shown here.
So, for Joseph Smith Jr. to come along and start to claim God gave him further light and knowledge via new revelations and the power and authority to implement the Kingdom of God on earth, this was tantamount to blasphemy to Christians/Protestants. They summarily dismissed the claims of the Mormons despite the fact that the claims were in keeping with what Jesus said they should be looking for. It's a sad irony and is yet another instance of "paradise lost". They were not looking for the coming of a new Adam to lay the foundation of a new cycle of Creation so that there could be a new heavens and a new earth.
Instead of Christians/Protestants recognizing the light and truth Adam was given and the dominion He was given, the angels (of the lesser levels of glory) were jealous of Adam and tried to deny the fact that He too was an angelic being of greater glory than themselves. They refused to give obeisance claiming that Adam was just a man and that there was no spiritual life or fire in his being. So, the irony here is there are many Christians/Protestants who fancy themselves as angels of light who enjoy spiritual life, but who are unknowingly in the ranks of the Shaitan to persecute and deny Adam the Kingdom God gave Him.
Further, Genesis makes it clear that Adam too was given the "breath of life" and that He too became a (spiritually) living soul. The difference is, his level of glory far surpassed that of all of the previous creations, except for that of "the greater light to rule the day" who is Jesus Christ himself.
This is one major reason why I enjoy the Qur'an so much. Because it gives much greater detail about what happens surrounding Adam. It confirms in every way thus far that my manner of reading the creation account and the narrative of creation on the flesh and bone level is 100% accurate.
So, if/when your eyes are opened to be able to see Adam as a flesh and bone being scheduled to manifest in the 6th millennia as the cycle repeats, who is currently here in flesh and bone, yet is in a fallen state, then you can lock into a manner of deciphering all of holy writ in plain and practical terms instead of turning it all into mystery and/or fantasy. This level of understanding to read the creation account as a master blueprint is, I believe, what the Qur'an calls Al-Kitaab. And, I'm not the originator of this understanding. God is willing to share this understanding with all who are pure and sincere in their devotion to Him and He blinds those who are not sincere to see it as foolishness.
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Peace Mazhar,
While your analogy is sound, the actual circumstances suggest something different.
What I mean by that is yes, all living things come from water but all living things can
be observed or deduced while angels cannot be observed, they being part of the
unseen while water can be seen, therefore, angels must be composed of something
other than water.No I have not seen the link and I would like for you to make it available again.
peace
Do we see water in the flame? We cannot see Ieblees , then should we presume he has no water constituent in his creation?
Link Pl see last entry about flame
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Unless, being all-knowing, this was an intentional aim/mechanism in Allah's plan for our lives on this Earth - but then, if Iblis is serving such a critical role, why is Iblis going to be punished?
Interesting thought, however have you thought that perhaps 'being put into flame/fire' is not a punishment for a being made out of fire?
Thus it's not a punishment at all?
It's like throwing a fish into the ocean.. which is their natural habitat.. -
Interesting thought, however have you thought that perhaps 'being put into flame/fire' is not a punishment for a being made out of fire?
Thus it's not a punishment at all?
It's like throwing a fish into the ocean.. which is their natural habitat..And if it were Dead Sea?
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Salaam everyone!
I hope you are all doing well.
I have had this question concerning a story in the Qur'an for a while now and I would be very interested to see what every one here has to say about it.
These are the verses of the story I am referring to
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"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234" "
"And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated." 711" "
" said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."" 712" "
"Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated." 1531" "
" said, O Iblees, what is with you that you are not with those who prostrate?" 1532" "
"He said, "Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."" 1533" "
"And when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"" 1761" "
"(Allah) said "O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?"" 3875Ok so you all probably already know this story. My questions regarding this story are as follows
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Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
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Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
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It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. So does it have something to do with customs of the region at that time? Remember in the bible people prostrated themselves before other people all the time, kings, priests, prophets, holy men... is this shirk?
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Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?
I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about this story and these questions.
Thank you in advance for you time and patience in go over this material.
Peace!
He was obeying someone other then Allah , and, so he was comitting shirk.......was he not? peace
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And if it were Dead Sea?
Excellent distinction!
You can be spiritually born to Allah or Lucifer.
They each provide a "fire", but one leads to "life" and the other leads to the "second death".
Everyone ends up in eternal burnings, the question is which baptism of fire you hold to. -
Excellent distinction!
You can be spiritually born to Allah or Lucifer.
They each provide a "fire", but one leads to "life" and the other leads to the "second death".
Everyone ends up in eternal burnings, the question is which baptism of fire you hold to.Allah the Exalted provides "Noor" signifying the visible light which is the source and is the sustainer of life. Lucifer invites for fire to "enjoy" to have company.
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Interesting thought, however have you thought that perhaps 'being put into flame/fire' is not a punishment for a being made out of fire?
Thus it's not a punishment at all?
It's like throwing a fish into the ocean.. which is their natural habitat..I agree very much with your remark @Jafar!
I was also thinking (must say that this idea is not so original) that, since angels cannot disobey God since they do not have a (free)will of their own, perhaps Iblees was not an angel at all? !
He was able to make a choice! !!!And he refused to bow down to a human creature-man, because he is utterly devoted only to God?
hmm
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I agree that angelic beings have established an agreement to be true and faithful to the will of Allah and therein have yielded their agency to Allah. However, this does not preclude them from making the choice to go back on their agreement and be disobedient. This is in fact what the demonic hosts have done and is why they were banished from their former standings.
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Peace,
I am sure angels have free will. Otherwise the point in them to prostrate to Adam would be completely unnecessary. I think we conjecture too much. God most likely commanded them to prostrate to expose possible hypocrites and as you can see Eblees was one of them. He was arrogant and would not obey God's test of His ethereal servants. Shaytaan is with no doubt a term for those who fight God, you even use this for all those who follow him, a faction. Shaytaan is an evil spirit(s) and may be an integral part of our minds. Musa said, when he has killed a man "this is the work of Shaytaan".
And it is obvious that Shaytaan is Eblees; it is he who promised to mislead the majority of people. He is the leader of the Shaytaan faction. We cannot see him or his servants just as we cannot see God, but we can see his works. As a Jinn soul he is made of the same material as angels, ie fire, so the probability that he is of this origin is very high.
All is part of God's grand plan of which we have no knowledge, or some may be blessed with partial knowledge. God knew Eblees was not going to prostrate obviously since he is all-knowing. Same as then, God is currently working on exposing the human hypocrites here on Earth. We have enough Knowledge and all that to be Believers, but some people still refuse to believe or believe without associating partners with Him.
Where does this talk about free will come from anyway?
To answer the question of the thread no one is committing shirk if God gives a direct command to do something and you obey, even if it nornally would seem like obvious shirk.
Prostration itself is a kind of very humble way of paying homage and not necessarily associated with religion. Time has made this act into only a religious thing, but in the past people prostrated from right to left not because they worshiped someone but to humble themselves to them. Shaytaan refused to humble himself, so that is where it all began. He rioted because he did not desire to humble himself to an inferior creature as humans seem to be inferior to the flame-based creatures of God's realm. God knows that this weak creature has some clones of the souls which are worthy and those are the one He is testing in this world.
On a side-note, the use of sujud in Quran may be rather a word for to humble yourself than the precise definition of prostrate.
God bless you
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well, if God spoke directly to me and ordered me to do something, I would do it. He is God, after all. Iblis should have obeyed. It's not a question of shirk - but disobedience and arrogance.
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Peace,
From 326, it can be seen that control is given to anyone and taken away from anyone by The God at any time. 326 makes it clear that being one from the "malaika"/controllers is a status, not some kind of mythical creature flying around in a white robe with a halo over the head. Thus, the controllers can be any creature that The God gave this status to. As long as they obey The God, they remain in that status. If one of them chooses to disobey The God, as Iblis/"one who is stuck" did, then The God takes from him this status and he is no longer a controller.
Source How Did It Come To This? (Part 2)
To understand SJD in 234 read 258.
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And when We said to the angels "sjudu" to Adam "fasajadu", but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
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And when We said Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate "sujjadan", and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
Abdelilah
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Peace,
From 326, it can be seen that control is given to anyone and taken away from anyone by The God at any time. 326 makes it clear that being one from the "malaika"/controllers is a status, not some kind of mythical creature flying around in a white robe with a halo over the head. Thus, the controllers can be any creature that The God gave this status to. As long as they obey The God, they remain in that status. If one of them chooses to disobey The God, as Iblis/"one who is stuck" did, then The God takes from him this status and he is no longer a controller.
Source How Did It Come To This? (Part 2)
To understand SJD in 234 read 258.
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And when We said to the controllers "sjudu" to Adam "fasajadu", but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
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And when We said Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate "sujjadan", and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
Abdelilah
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Peace,
From 326, it can be seen that control is given to anyone and taken away from anyone by The God at any time. 326 makes it clear that being one from the "malaika"/controllers is a status, not some kind of mythical creature flying around in a white robe with a halo over the head. Thus, the controllers can be any creature that The God gave this status to. As long as they obey The God, they remain in that status. If one of them chooses to disobey The God, as Iblis/"one who is stuck" did, then The God takes from him this status and he is no longer a controller.
Source How Did It Come To This? (Part 2)
To understand SJD in 234 read 258.
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And when We said to the controllers "sjudu" to Adam "fasajadu", but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
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And when We said Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate "sujjadan", and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
Abdelilah
Salaamun alayka bro,
I heard you the first time already
I think the biggest problem (at least for me) is to get rid of our preprogrammed image of malaika
http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-HJJHuoHHK_s/TsUcXujKFoI/AAAAAAAAAKI/mibHq8V8EiA/s1600/Angel1.jpgAnd our image of iblies
http//jokesfeestartikelen.nl/images/1015D%20Kostuum%20set%20Duivel.jpgAs long as we see them like this we will not understand a thing.
Salaam,
Bender -