Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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Israfeel, I don't consider crcumcision an impure act comparable to the consumption of vile fluids. I said before that I'm indifferent to circumcision itself - if you feel that you will physically be more pure if you are circumcized, you are free to hold that view and I have no qualms with it, as stated before I feel it is "a very minor issue" that we must use our own intelligence to judge. What I'm arguing against is the notion that circumcision is mandatory.
The assumption point was in regards to my whole common sense rant at the end of the post, my apologies for wording and structuring my post as terribly as I did there.
Wasn't aware you were referring to sexual acts, my bad. Not really an area of expertise for me, though I know that the 3rd example you gave is supposed to have serious health risks, and that the 2nd example, interpretations vary between the different madhabs and stuff but generally it is looked down on somewhat due to also having some risks to health. Those two should really explain themselves, the "drinking sperm" example especially so I'd think. I'm not particularly sure what to say about "golden showers". I would assume it also has health risks but I'm not an expert I suppose, I couldn't say for sure. Regardless, considering how prevalent the theme of spiritual and physical purity is within the Quran, I don't see how such an act, which seems to be irrelevant to "sex" the act itself - would not be frowned upon. It sounds like such a minor act, again something one must use our own intelligence to judge.
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Israfeel, I don't consider crcumcision an impure act comparable to the consumption of vile fluids. I said before that I'm indifferent to circumcision itself - if you feel that you will physically be more pure if you are circumcized, you are free to hold that view and I have no qualms with it, as stated before I feel it is "a very minor issue" that we must use our own intelligence to judge. What I'm arguing against is the notion that circumcision is mandatory.
The assumption point was in regards to my whole common sense rant at the end of the post, my apologies for wording and structuring my post as terribly as I did there.
Wasn't aware you were referring to sexual acts, my bad. Not really an area of expertise for me, though I know that the 3rd example you gave is supposed to have serious health risks, and that the 2nd example, interpretations vary between the different madhabs and stuff but generally it is looked down on somewhat due to also having some risks to health. Those two should really explain themselves, the "drinking sperm" example especially so I'd think. I'm not particularly sure what to say about "golden showers". I would assume it also has health risks but I'm not an expert I suppose, I couldn't say for sure. Regardless, considering how prevalent the theme of spiritual and physical purity is within the Quran, I don't see how such an act, which seems to be irrelevant to "sex" the act itself - would not be frowned upon. It sounds like such a minor act, again something one must use our own intelligence to judge.
Well when you argue against circumcision being mandatory simply because it is not mentioned in the Quran apart from general principles of being clean, then the same line of reasoning means you cannot declare things like golden showers, women swallowing sperm, people growing out their pubic and armpit hairs, intercourse through back passage, as being HARAM.
You can "frown" on all these things as much as you want. But from a purely Quranic point of view, all of these things are never censured.
The point I'm trying to make is that by only going by Quran you leave a lot of controversial issues open to interpretation and dispute. Even if you personally don't approve of these things, if a Quranist does them and even says there's no problem with it, you as a Quranist cannot argue with him.
Therefore I invite you to come back to the traditional Islam with Sunnah and Hadith. You say Quran is always encouraging intellect and rational thinking....well my rational thinking is always telling me Islam will be a mockery without Hadith.
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Therefore I invite you to come back to the traditional Islam with Sunnah and Hadith. You say Quran is always encouraging intellect and rational thinking....well my rational thinking is always telling me Islam will be a mockery without Hadith.
Hadiths - stories told by Abu huraira and company are a mockery of Islam. What you are doing is inviting people to come back to believing in lies about prophets and God by Abu Huraira and his likes. sorry, but I decline your invitation.
What you have shown is your fallacies, making inaccurate statements whilst remaining silent when called out.
Again, if you wish to persist in your beliefs and views making untrue statements about God, that is your choice and to God you shall answer to. I suggest that you follow the Koran only asking God for guidance in seeking knowledge and understanding.
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Israfeel.
I know the concept of Taqleed, however none of those scholars said to blindly follow them.
So you follow your own hawa to conclude which hadith to follow. So in actual fact you follow your own taqleed of the hadith. Hadith has been investigated in the past, yet you BLINDLY ALED (blindly follow, do your taqlid to the 6 hadith books). Where is your evidence that these books are authentic and infallible?
The hadiths you state do not claim circumcision is obligatory.So who are you fooling? They merely claim it in positive light. Furthermore there are hadiths which discuss men who lead prayer who are circumcised or uncircumcised, a circumcised is preferred. So really that is proof that it is not obligated. Moreover you mention the aqiqa of the baby. Nowhere have I read that hadith so if you can reference it that would be good. However I have read on the 7th day of the newborns Hassan and Hussain were circumcised.
Therefore based on hadith there is clear evidence that none of the sahaba nor the prophet claimed it as obligatory. Based on hadith it shows it is a commendable act and some people did it. Therefore to make a thing a Fard (an obligation) when it is not obligated is a sin, as Allah is the law maker not you, not hadith and not noone.
You seem to argue that hadith can only guide you into how to be clean you seem to totally dismiss Quran. You think God is incapable? how offensive.
Your logic is flawed let me show you some examples
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- Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
There is no wrong in culture so long as it does not contradict Quran. many western and non muslim people remove pubic hairs etc you can't speak for all people. Removing pubic hair, cutting nails etc is not sinful because Allah did not say it was. Unless you want to prove otherwise??? So don't make a claim unless you have proof.
- Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
According to the Quran God tells us how to be pure during Salat, and God outlines the things which we need to purify i.e. having a bath, i.e. if you go to the toilet (urine/stool), sexual intercourse etc. So we do know based on the Quran that certain fluids need to be cleansed to be considered clean. Take for example 443.
- According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
Why would someone drink impurity? How explicit do you need something? Do you need Allah to tell you in the Quran that urine is impure you must not drink it? based on your logic God is incapable of explaining our deen, Auothobillah.
- According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
Use your brain. Firstly how often will someone be in contact with swine? And pray? Your cases are pathetic. What if someone didn't know they had traces of anything on them? are they constantly sinning? what if they were poor and they can only live in a swinehouse are they just impure?
- Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
Read verses 56, 443 in ways we are told to be purified. And you will learn that urine, dung seminal fluid is not a characteristic a person enjoining a state of purification. If you can not understand that, I can?t help you. So do not pick and choose and claim what the Quran has and doesn't have if you have not read it.
You cannot halel and harem (make permissible and make unlawful) to your own whims and desires, do not misunderstand people based on your own ignorance, understanding and flawed logic. Try and think of the other person's perspective rather than "you vs them".
salam.
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Israfeel.
I know the concept of Taqleed, however none of those scholars said to blindly follow them.
I agree. Which is why I don't blindly follow the scholars. I follow the Prophet (Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and his Hadith.
So you follow your own hawa to conclude which hadith to follow. So in actual fact you follow your own taqleed of the hadith. Hadith has been investigated in the past, yet you BLINDLY ALED (blindly follow, do your taqlid to the 6 hadith books). Where is your evidence that these books are authentic and infallible?
Good question. I don't blindly follow the books, I follow (Itteba) the Hadith which is proven to be authentically said by our Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam, based on its chain of narration.
By the way, in case you don't know, this is also how the Quran has been transmitted, through chains of narration. The Quran wasn't dropped from the sky or brought down on the wings of Angels from Heaven. It was revealed on the tongue of the Prophet peace be upon him and conveyed to us through his companions exactly the same like Hadith.
The hadiths you state do not claim circumcision is obligatory.So who are you fooling? They merely claim it in positive light. Furthermore there are hadiths which discuss men who lead prayer who are circumcised or uncircumcised, a circumcised is preferred. So really that is proof that it is not obligated. Moreover you mention the aqiqa of the baby. Nowhere have I read that hadith so if you can reference it that would be good. However I have read on the 7th day of the newborns Hassan and Hussain were circumcised.
The Hadith I quoted from Bukhari Sharif is very clear that circumcision is obligatory. It is one of the five characteristics of the Fitra, all five of them are considered obligatory.
Therefore based on hadith there is clear evidence that none of the sahaba nor the prophet claimed it as obligatory. Based on hadith it shows it is a commendable act and some people did it. Therefore to make a thing a Fard (an obligation) when it is not obligated is a sin, as Allah is the law maker not you, not hadith and not noone.
Wrong, it is obligatory as proven from the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif.
You seem to argue that hadith can only guide you into how to be clean you seem to totally dismiss Quran. You think God is incapable? how offensive.
Well if you dismiss Hadith then you have no cleanliness, because Quran doesnt mention directly about circumcision, what is impure, how to remove unclean hair, what animals are unclean, how to remove impurity from clothes, how to clean dishes licked by unclean animals or which contained alcohol or unclean meat, what kind of water is pure and how much amount of water you need to ensure its purity, etc.
None of this is in Quran, you have to get it from Hadith. So in other words if you reject Hadith you have no Islam left.
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Peace,
You need no scriptural information to understand simple things are clean or unclean. I would not like to hug a sheep and go and pray straight afterwards (unless the sheep would be washed prior to it).
Clean dishes licked by unclean animal? How about wash them?
Which water is clean? Well, I think someone with average intellect can work that out.
How to remove "unclean" hair? How about using the modern invention "the razor blade"? I use my trimmer.
Dishes which used to contain alcohol? What a question. When do you have this issue?
Remove impurity from clothes? Well, modern detergents work fine on most stains. If not, there are some tricks (which are not from hadith).
I swear you can have fine cleanliness without hadith. Common sense works the trick. Rational and logical thinking is a winning combination.
You are a little wrong, without hadith you have the islam as intended by God. If you merely think about your hygiene you will see yourself when you are unclean. Consider when you talk about raised awareness. God will bless you with Wisdom and Knowledge and hence help you along the way if you have Faith in Him.
And lastly, circumcision is destroying what God created. It is removing a working organ. I am sure it entered the Jewish faith and later contaminated islam too. Circumcision is mentioned in the Torah.
But circumcising a full grown man, is that not torture if you have no anesthesia?
There is also mentioned in the Bible to circumcise your heart as far as I can recall. I think it is an ancient misunderstanding with dire consequences. I think people used the scripture to twist God's words, just as you say about hadith. Hadith is twisting God's words by adding strange procedures and rituals. In what hadith do you believe other than God's hadith (Quran)?
God bless you
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Peace,
Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.
Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.
Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.
Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?
And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.
It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.
God bless you
If circumcision has no advantages than why so many people in the west are doing this, btw they are not muslims or jews? Name me those "disadvantages" if there are any?
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Peace,
You need no scriptural information to understand simple things are clean or unclean. I would not like to hug a sheep and go and pray straight afterwards (unless the sheep would be washed prior to it).
Clean dishes licked by unclean animal? How about wash them?
Which water is clean? Well, I think someone with average intellect can work that out.
How to remove "unclean" hair? How about using the modern invention "the razor blade"? I use my trimmer.
Dishes which used to contain alcohol? What a question. When do you have this issue?
Remove impurity from clothes? Well, modern detergents work fine on most stains. If not, there are some tricks (which are not from hadith).
My question is that if a person does not do these things, according to the Quran is he sinful or not? I would like an answer from Quran only, not your opinion. If you follow Quran only then answer must be from Quran.
And lastly, circumcision is destroying what God created.
Circumcision is mentioned in the Torah.
If circumcision is "destroying" what God created, then why is it mentioned in the Torah? Did you know that the Quran says Torah is revealed by Allah and Quran is confirming it? In fact, circumcision is the Sunnah of Prophet Ebrahim alayhis salam and practiced by all the Prophets and their followers.
Since Hadith rejectors don't practice circumcision, this proves that they are outside of Millat Ebrahim.
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You claim to follow the prophet based on apparent hadith which is proven to be authentic based on a chain of transmission, according to who??. I guess that just proves your lack of knowledge on the matter. Ahadith authenticity is pretty much focused on a chain however content is important but I guess the dirawaya isn?t significant to you if you choose to only follow a chain then I guess you?re knowledge is limited.
I recommend reading http//www.scribd.com/doc/119660399
Then if you want to discuss about hadith, we can discuss in another section.
In any case if you don?t know, Quran was written before the prophet died. Read your sources about suhoof alquran.
The hadith you quote is not clear that circumcision is obligatory, it just mentions characteristics of fitra, not that it is obligated, there is a difference. Moreover it doesn?t specify men or women. So unless you think the ruling is purely for men only where is your evidence? What is your proof?
Wrong, it is obligatory as proven from the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif.
Wrong, you mentioned a hadith but no proof where it says it is obligated. Where is the proof that the hadith says it is obligated? This discussion is about the principle of halal and haram. Not your interpretations. If you said you followed the hadith because it was a sunnah that would have been accurate but no you said it?s obligated. Can you see the principle?
Well if you dismiss Hadith then you have no cleanliness, because Quran doesnt mention directly about circumcision, what is impure, how to remove unclean hair, what animals are unclean, how to remove impurity from clothes, how to clean dishes licked by unclean animals or which contained alcohol or unclean meat, what kind of water is pure and how much amount of water you need to ensure its purity, etc.
None of this is in Quran, you have to get it from Hadith. So in other words if you reject Hadith you have no Islam left.
No you?re extrapolating your own conclusions.
Firstly if someone removes ?unclean hair? ?removes impurity from clothes? is circumcised etc etc etc Yet they do this out of their understanding of what is clean/beneficial. Do you still see them as unclean? That means according to your logic they have accepted islam, because you say if you reject such hadith you have left islam. See how irrational your logic is?
Another thing, you will not find everything you want to know in hadith, why do you think fatawa exist?
You do not have to learn how to be clean from hadith and it?s not your place to judge who has or hasn?t left islam.
There are benefits to circumcision but there is no obligation mentioned by God and if you disagree with that, then I guess we have different views.
The principle is that you can?t obligate a thing God has not made an obligation. You have made your own deductions and concluded it is purity/cleanliness etc so you did it, that?s fine but don?t go on making it an obligation upon everyone. Many people have been circumcised even those that claim to follow the Quran-Alone and there are traditional sunnis that do not circumcise.
if your understanding is based on hadith, based on torah or whatever else. That is your conclusion but you cannot expect to force it upon another. Ultimately you will be judged on your own deeds. you can put your evidence forth and others can put there's.
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You claim to follow the prophet based on apparent hadith which is proven to be authentic based on a chain of transmission, according to who??
According to the evidence. And the Quran says to verify news that is brought to you. This is the whole basis of the Hadith science known as Ilm ul Rijaal and Jarh wat Tadeel, about verifying the credibility of the narrators. The Hadith science is in fact the pride of Islam since no other religion can verify the credibility of the writers and narrators of their scriptures.
But Alhamdulillah we can read the biography and history of each and every narrator of authentic Hadith and see if he is a truthful person. Therefore we are follow Hadith based on evidence and not blind following. Unlike you who follow the Quran but have no proof that Quran is the word of God.
In any case if you don?t know, Quran was written before the prophet died.
Where's your proof? Show me a manuscript of the complete Quran which is dated before the year 633 CE.
The hadith you quote is not clear that circumcision is obligatory, it just mentions characteristics of fitra, not that it is obligated, there is a difference. Moreover it doesn?t specify men or women. So unless you think the ruling is purely for men only where is your evidence? What is your proof?
Fitra means something which is natural. Other Hadith show that going against the Fitra is haram. And the Hadith is general, so it applies to women with regard to removing unclean hair, cutting nails, etc. However, there are some parts of the Hadith which are obviously only for men. For example
'A'isha reported The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said Ten are the acts according to fitra clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)
Now the trimming mustache and letting beard grow obviously only apply to men since women dont have mustache or beard. As for circumcision, there is difference of opinion if it is necessary for women. But other Hadith show that even women should be circumcised but it is not obligatory only recommended.
Firstly if someone removes ?unclean hair? ?removes impurity from clothes? is circumcised etc etc etc Yet they do this out of their understanding of what is clean/beneficial. Do you still see them as unclean? That means according to your logic they have accepted islam, because you say if you reject such hadith you have left islam. See how irrational your logic is?
Well as the Hadith says these things are part of the Fitra, meaning a person will naturally want to do this whether he is Muslim or not. However, many people who are ignorant and dont follow Islam do not keep clean and go against the Hadith. They don't get circumcised, they dont remove pubic hair, they dont remove armpit hairs, they keep long mustaches, and they don't clean their private parts with water (use toilet paper only like most Western people). So these ignorant and unclean people need Islam to guide them, and they will only get this correct guidance if they read Hadith because Quran doesnt mention these things.
Another thing, you will not find everything you want to know in hadith, why do you think fatawa exist?
Well a Fatwa is a ruling based on Quran and Hadith applying to a particular case. But if a Fatwa goes against Hadith it must be rejected.
There are benefits to circumcision but there is no obligation mentioned by God and if you disagree with that, then I guess we have different views.
If circumcision is beneficial as you confess, then why doesnt God obligate it?
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Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
Then how will you answer this question?
- In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to eat flies, will you do it?
- In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to drink Camel's urine, will you do it?
- Nowhere in the Quran or book of gossips any mention of forbidding eating the flesh of non-muslim / your vanquished enemy / the kuffars, thus it's not forbidden and 'cannibalism' is endorsed?
And the list can goes on and on and on..
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According to the evidence. And the Quran says to verify news that is brought to you. This is the whole basis of the Hadith science known as Ilm ul Rijaal and Jarh wat Tadeel, about verifying the credibility of the narrators. The Hadith science is in fact the pride of Islam since no other religion can verify the credibility of the writers and narrators of their scriptures.
But Alhamdulillah we can read the biography and history of each and every narrator of authentic Hadith and see if he is a truthful person. Therefore we are follow Hadith based on evidence and not blind following. Unlike you who follow the Quran but have no proof that Quran is the word of God.
Do you know when the hadiths being written?
Example
According to your dad, your deceased great grandpa saith "My wife is a bitch!"How can you verify the credibility of rumors / gossips when the source of the rumor / gossip has been dead?
Unless Ouija board or other means of 'talking to the dead' is considered as 'valid techniques'.. rotfl
'A'isha reported The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said Ten are the acts according to fitra clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)
No toothpaste here... brushing your teeth using a toothpaste is HARAM and sinful act! rotfl
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rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
Then how will you answer this question?
- In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to eat flies, will you do it?
- In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to drink Camel's urine, will you do it?
What sit he book of gossips?
By the way no Hadith mentions to eat flies or drink camel urine. The Hadith about camel urine is taken out of context. Ive already explained that elsewhere. In fact Hadith makes it clear to stay away from all urine which is impure.
- Nowhere in the Quran or book of gossips any mention of forbidding eating the flesh of non-muslim / your vanquished enemy / the kuffars, thus it's not forbidden and 'cannibalism' is endorsed?
Yes nowhere in the Quran. This why you need Hadith )
Hadith explicitly forbid cannibalism. One Hadith says its forbidden to eat any creature that has canines (humans have canines) and another Hadith states it forbidden to even break the bones of a dead person - so how to eat it?But nowhere in Quran is cannibalism forbidden. This why you need Hadith.
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Do you know when the hadiths being written?
Example
According to your dad, your deceased great grandpa saith "My wife is a bitch!"What your mother was my great grandpa's wife?
How can you verify the credibility of rumors / gossips when the source of the rumor / gossip has been dead?
Rumors and gossip is not the same as verified transmissions which are corroborated. Otherwise all witness testimony should be dismissed from courts of law as mere rumors and gossip.
No toothpaste here... brushing your teeth using a toothpaste is HARAM and sinful act! rotfl
Where in the Quran it says to use toothpaste or even clean your teeth? Answer Nowhere
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So if you follow Quran only, you never have to
a. be circumcised
b. remove your pubic hair
c. wash yourself after answering call of nature
d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals
e. clean your teeth
f. wash hands before eating
g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)
h. insects and vermin are not haram
i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)
j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm
k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex
So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
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Peace Sonny,
I have no clue why they do it, and I do not care why they did it either. There are many disadvantages of circumcision. I mentioned a few in earlier posts. I know myself since I am.
Peace Israfeel,
The Torah is the Law brought by Moses and much of the literature found in the bundle you call Torah is added hadith. The discussion here is not the nature of he Torah, though I have much to say about it and I have said many things in past threads.
Excuse me, but you come with irrelevant input. The Quran tells you to be clean and pure and an average person would know ways to keep clean. Need no book for that.
You would be able to determine if you are clean or not on your own.
The ideas you have extracted from your hadith are ideas of some person, not God. Most ideas are hardly from a prophet's ways but inventions of people who wanted to seem important.
Do you deem how many stones a man should use to wipe his ass relevant to your salvation?
And many other completely irrelevant input and semi-relevant input an average blessed person could work out on his own.
Relying on hadith just shows you cannot trust your own brain and thus not trust God. Quran warns you that if you follow the majority of all people they will drive you astray. And most people who believe do not do so without committing idol worship.
If you know what is a majority then you should only follow God's own hadith, the Quran. It is the safest bet. What other hadith do you believe in?
Now I did not intend to write such a long response to things I consider blasphemies, but I suppose God's inspiration pushes me. If you do not choose to change your ways I will let you have your system and I will stick to mine. I will try to treat you with respect and dignity despite our incompatible nature.
You say I do not follow the ways of Ibrahim. Well, have your opinion, it belongs with you, but I follow the example of him and every other prophet and blessed man ever lived. I follow the peaceful and truthful nature of their worship of the one God. If you read Quran you will understand why God deemed Ibrahim to be a good example, and it was not mainly due to his cleanliness. If you read the Quran with a clear mind you will see that it was due to His devoted and sincere worship of God without associating any partners with Him. And he was a very kind and islamic (peaceful) person.
I do not follow rules and restrictions which would only draw my attention away from the One who sent me. I follow God's sunnah and I am mindful of Him every moment of my life. I trust His guidance and that He will have me do the most righteous choice. He has given me Knowledge and Wisdom without that I have taken any spectacular look at hadith ever in my life.
Will you choose to obey the ideas of men it is up to you, but I will not.
What was revealed to Moses were the Ten Commandments or the mosaic law on stone tablets. That was the Message or kitab you are looking for. I did not intend to say this, but I did anyways. There is just hadith/hearsay or man-made recordings which are scrolls which were assembled into the Torah or Bible we have today.
Jesus followed the Mosaic law, but showed that common sense should also be used when interpreting it. Jesus never wrote a book, it was his disciples that recorded his life.
The only physical book that ever came down was Quran, the only exact wordings of God, except those inscriptions on stone tablets to Moses which seem to be long gone.
What do I choose to follow? Well, I follow the Mosaic law (Ten Commandments), the Gospel (Jesus was always special) and Quran. The rest are unreliable stories which can be used to find inspiration at best.
The spirit of Ibrahim lives on in Quran, the Old Testament is too unreliable for any sustained knowledge-seeking. Same goes for Muhammad in my world. They all live on in my Quran.
If there is something I would be curious about I open the Bible and read a little, but then I have to use my brain and it is not always true since many men added their words. There has been research conducted on the Bible which shows its corruption and biased changes done to it. You have to "read between the lines" to find the true Message. The Quran can pretty much be read without suspicion or fear of being deceived except from traditional misinterpretations.
Hadith is synonymous in English as hearsay which is recorded on paper. If you only knew the corrupting nature of men you would immediately understand lots of the literature out there contains immense masses of false portrayals of the famous faces ever lived. No other source can be trusted 100% except the Quran. Still it comes down to the interpretation of the 1400 year old scripture and we can barely even trust that without seeking enlightenment from God.
Why then believe in man-made conjecture about the same age minus 200-400 years? Some Truth may exist in it, but how can you prove it to be true? Especially when the Quran does not mention a word about it or even hint at it.
Keeping clean comes down to the discretion of the individual and an average blessed person who is not mentally disabled can work it out on his own. God said "Stay pure and clean". The reverent believer will obey and do what he can to stay clean and retain a pure heart. You can use modern ways now that we live in the 21st century, you do not need to follow practices from the dark ages as long as the result is the same.
You do the same mistake as all people have done before the Messengers came and admonished the people. They did literal interpretation of what they had and they did not use their brains.
Please excuse me if what I wrote is provoking any frustration. Please reply with something that makes sense and not some parroting words. When it comes down to it all, we shall worship the one who sent us and not follow the vain ideas of people who existed before us. Follow the Quran and follow the example of those righteous before you, worship God alone and do not add any man-made conjecture to it.
Thanks, that was all from me for the moment.
God bless you
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Peace Israfeel,
The answer would be no to all or most of what you listed. Please, use your brain. It is common sense that they are things we would not do.
And to put the "thing" up someone's ass is just silly talking. Then you would get shit on your Johnson.
Still, it gives absolutely no reason to open a hadith book. Not at all.
Please, you shall not be so insulting, especially not on baseless grounds.
God bless you
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Peace Israfeel,
The answer would be no to all or most of what you listed. Please, use your brain. It is common sense that they are things we would not do.
And to put the "thing" up someone's ass is just silly talking. Then you would get shit on your Johnson.
Still, it gives absolutely no reason to open a hadith book. Not at all.
Please, you shall not be so insulting, especially not on baseless grounds.
God bless you
Again, this is your opinion. You say you follow Quran, and only Quran is reliable as the Word of God. So please tell me where in the Quran.
After all, if Hadith has no value, then neither your opinion has any value. We should only know what Quran says. So please tell me where does Quran forbid anal sex? In fact Quran says to approach your wife however you want. Also, read my signature, I have quoted a Quran-only woman on this forum "Justamuslim", she says that anal sex is okay and swallowing sperm is okay. And she is a Quran-only woman.
Now let me tell you that our Hadith following women would never write such shameful things. They would die of shame before they could write what this Quran-only woman wrote so casually for the whole world to see. Something to think about.
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Peace Israfeel,
Excuse me, but you come with irrelevant input. The Quran tells you to be clean and pure and an average person would know ways to keep clean. Need no book for that.
So no need for the Quran to tell us how to be clean. Then why are you Quran-only people against circumcision? The reason is because you are saying circumcision is not in the Quran. Look how you are contradicting yourself. Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?
The only physical book that ever came down was Quran, the only exact wordings of God, except those inscriptions on stone tablets to Moses which seem to be long gone.
What about the Suhufi Ebrahim wa Mousa (the Scrolls of Abraham and Moses)? Suhuf (plural of Sahifah) is physical paper and scrolls.
What do I choose to follow? Well, I follow the Mosaic law (Ten Commandments),
You follow the Ten Commandments? Do you keep the Sabbath? Also do you know that the Mosaic Law of the Ten Commandments also has punishments for breaking the commandments? One of the Commandments is "Thou shalt not make any graven image", yet Quran-only people say having pictures of people and animals is allowed. Also if you break some of the Ten Commandments like violate the Sabbath, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, or worship an idol - the punishment is to be stoned to death. But Quran-only people say stoning to death is against Quran.
So the reality is that you do not follow the Ten Commandments. You only follow your personal interpretation of the Quran to suit your desires and modern Western culture.
The spirit of Ibrahim lives on in Quran, the Old Testament is too unreliable for any sustained knowledge-seeking. Same goes for Muhammad in my world. They all live on in my Quran.
What is the proof that Quran is reliable and other books are not? The earliest complete manuscript of the Quran is from centuries after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) death.
So if you say Old Testament, Bible, Gospel, and Hadith are unreliable, you must also admit that the Quran is unreliable also.
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Peace Israfeel.
You must also read brother Man of Faith posts in here, because he is a mualaf and of course know about Bible teaching more than you.
So if you follow Quran only, you never have to
a. be circumcised
b. remove your pubic hair
c. wash yourself after answering call of nature
d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals
e. clean your teeth
f. wash hands before eating
g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)
h. insects and vermin are not haram
i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)
j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm
k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex
So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
Actually I also recognized if hadith contains good teaching like philosophers sentences, the hygiene like all points you posting, and etc.But is that hadith really 100% from Nabi Muhammad? How if that was man made cause hadith writing is not Prophet's command and Prophet, all Sahabat, none of them became eye witnesses of hadith writing.
It's like Hindu's Scripture, the Hindu's Scripture contains some good teaching similiar with the hadith, but is Hindu's Scripture is from Allah?
Just imagine humans can wrote the Scripture such like Hindu's and Budha's, then it's not imposibble human created narrations such like the Kutub As Asittah.