Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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Peace Israfeel,
Excuse me, but you come with irrelevant input. The Quran tells you to be clean and pure and an average person would know ways to keep clean. Need no book for that.
So no need for the Quran to tell us how to be clean. Then why are you Quran-only people against circumcision? The reason is because you are saying circumcision is not in the Quran. Look how you are contradicting yourself. Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?
The only physical book that ever came down was Quran, the only exact wordings of God, except those inscriptions on stone tablets to Moses which seem to be long gone.
What about the Suhufi Ebrahim wa Mousa (the Scrolls of Abraham and Moses)? Suhuf (plural of Sahifah) is physical paper and scrolls.
What do I choose to follow? Well, I follow the Mosaic law (Ten Commandments),
You follow the Ten Commandments? Do you keep the Sabbath? Also do you know that the Mosaic Law of the Ten Commandments also has punishments for breaking the commandments? One of the Commandments is "Thou shalt not make any graven image", yet Quran-only people say having pictures of people and animals is allowed. Also if you break some of the Ten Commandments like violate the Sabbath, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, or worship an idol - the punishment is to be stoned to death. But Quran-only people say stoning to death is against Quran.
So the reality is that you do not follow the Ten Commandments. You only follow your personal interpretation of the Quran to suit your desires and modern Western culture.
The spirit of Ibrahim lives on in Quran, the Old Testament is too unreliable for any sustained knowledge-seeking. Same goes for Muhammad in my world. They all live on in my Quran.
What is the proof that Quran is reliable and other books are not? The earliest complete manuscript of the Quran is from centuries after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) death.
So if you say Old Testament, Bible, Gospel, and Hadith are unreliable, you must also admit that the Quran is unreliable also.
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Peace Israfeel.
You must also read brother Man of Faith posts in here, because he is a mualaf and of course know about Bible teaching more than you.
So if you follow Quran only, you never have to
a. be circumcised
b. remove your pubic hair
c. wash yourself after answering call of nature
d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals
e. clean your teeth
f. wash hands before eating
g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)
h. insects and vermin are not haram
i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)
j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm
k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex
So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
Actually I also recognized if hadith contains good teaching like philosophers sentences, the hygiene like all points you posting, and etc.But is that hadith really 100% from Nabi Muhammad? How if that was man made cause hadith writing is not Prophet's command and Prophet, all Sahabat, none of them became eye witnesses of hadith writing.
It's like Hindu's Scripture, the Hindu's Scripture contains some good teaching similiar with the hadith, but is Hindu's Scripture is from Allah?
Just imagine humans can wrote the Scripture such like Hindu's and Budha's, then it's not imposibble human created narrations such like the Kutub As Asittah.
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So you recognize that Hadith contains good teachings which are not in the Quran.
Good, looks like you're not type a person who reading something carefully.Please read my post carefully before you reply.
I'm also recognize Hindhu and Buddha's Scriptures as good teaching like hadith, but none of them came from Allah like hadith.So why I must have iman on them?
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Good, looks like you're not type a person who reading something carefully.Please read my post carefully before you reply.
I'm also recognize Hindhu and Buddha's Scriptures as good teaching like hadith, but none of them came from Allah like hadith.So why I must have iman on them?
The point is you admit that the good things in Hadith about hygiene, which are not in the Quran. Now you also say you like Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.
So what happened to following Quran only and Quran is the perfect book no other book is necessary. You admitting that Quran does not contain the full guidance, but there is guidance in Hadith and also Hindu/Buddhist books which is not in Quran.
Very good.
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Peace,
Yes it is my opinion. And where does God forbid you to have an opinion? Especially if it is a blessed opinion. God did not tell you to be empty shells not using the processing power he has bestowed you with.
The question is whose opinion you are following.
If they see anal sex as clean then that stands for them. I take no part in that.
Swallowing sperm... Well I think it is nutritious, but I have never tasted it.
So you believe not Quran to be the words of God. Why do you call yourself by the label Muslim? Why not invent your own religion? But you might have done that already...
Have you found any nonsense in the Quran? You should choose your sources carefully.
You misinterpret the commandment about images. It means pictures used in idol worship. And I am sure the phrases are not entirely correctly translated.
The original stone tablets with the original Law is gone. The only existing remnants are the words in the Old Testament. Considering the state of it why follow such words as to stone someone. The Quran does not mention it even once except in negative remarks.
Since you have Quran the words from the Law were transferred to it.
Suit your western style? What do you know about that? Like I said, you have your Knowledge and Wisdom in Quran. What else do you want?
History just repeats itself. People follow conjecture and it necessitates another Messenger to be sent.
And I follow the Ten Commandments, except the stoning because I do not believe it to have been in the original transcript.
Your last argument in your post makes me wonder how you can refer to yourself as a believer. Do you have doubts about the Quran? Can you not see it is from God? And you cannot distinguish between man-made conjecture and the Truth.
Sorry, I was a bit annoyed by your seemingly unblessed nature.
Like I said in an earlier post "Have your system and I will have mine, we will meet at the gathering". Just let people have their opinions.
God bless you
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Swallowing sperm... Well I think it is nutritious
rotfl rotfl rotfl
See this ladies and gentlemen. This is what happens when you reject the Hadith.
Of course I believe in the Quran. But nowhere in Quran does it say "Follow only Quran nothing else". In fact, Quran stresses several times to follow the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam)
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Peace Israfeel,
If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.
Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.
Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.
In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.
Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.
God bless you
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Peace Israfeel,
If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.
Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.
Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.
In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.
Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.
God bless you
Why is it impossible to follow someone who has died if we knew everything about him? Even today many people follow the teachings and ideas of dead people, like Buddha, Gandhi, George Washington, Elvis Prestly, etc.
Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?
By the way Quran says to take whatever the Prophet gives you and abstain from whatever he forbids you. Now we know that Quran is for all time and all people, it is a universal book. But the way you read Quran, half of its commandments no longer apply today. It shows that in reality you are going against Quran.
Also Allah says that the Prophet is not only given Al-Kitab (Quran), but also Al-Hikmah. Now my question to you is what is Al-Hikmah??
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So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
So what you are saying is that what God has commanded is a joke? It is God who gave mankind the Koran, and the faculties (the brain, the vision, wisdom, etc) and told us to follow only His guidance. God did not command that we listen and follow stories told by Abu huraira and company.
I suggest that you read God's words again. Again keep in mind that everything you say and do are being recorded on God's tablet and at the end you have go answer to God. Keep in mind that God is also a member of this forum and listening/reading our posts.
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Of course I believe in the Quran. But nowhere in Quran does it say "Follow only Quran nothing else". In fact, Quran stresses several times to follow the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam)
If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company.
If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance. Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.
I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.
I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed.
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Peace,
Because history is always beautified and corrupted with honoring things which never took place, or they are always in favor of the "hero".
Many historic figures are portrayed more righteous than they really were in their life. They may have been good, but not "that good".
The Quran is good because it is our answer keys.
God bless you
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If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company.
If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance. Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.
I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.
I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed.
bravo totally agree
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Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?
Hadith = sayings of Abu huraira and company. Let's get the facts straight. What is recorded and preserved are what abu huraira and company supposedly saw and heard prophet Muhammed say or do.
What prophet Muhammed said is preserved in the Koran by the authority of God.
Israfeel, if you are going to make your claims make them right. You don't follow Muhammed. What you follow is Abu huraira and company. Hadith are a collection of stories told by abu huraira and company. This is what you follow.
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Now let me tell you that our Hadith following women would never write such shameful things. They would die of shame before they could write what this Quran-only woman wrote so casually for the whole world to see. Something to think about.
You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private? Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing.
There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other. I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids, sexual practices of couples, and so on.
Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves.
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Peace,
Right. Do not make a mockery out of God's religion of peace.
God bless you
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Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?
You make statements but can you back up your statements?
Again what you are saying is that God created impurity by creating foreskin extending to the glans penis.
by the way depending on skills of the person doing the circumcision sometimes too much or too little foreskin is taken out. So how much foreskin removal would you say is adequate meeting your criteria of "purity". A boy can be circumcised and still has to retract his foreskin.
And how about boys who cannot have circumcision due to medical conditions or genital anomalies like hypospadias, then what you are saying is that these boys will forever remain impure because of God's doing?
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You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private? Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing.
There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other. I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids, sexual practices of couples, and so on.
Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves.
Point to be noted He says that a ''hadither woman would die out of shame for what justamuslim'' said. But why dont hadither women die out of shame when they read hadith which in details describe how muhammad had sex brickwall
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So if you follow Quran only, you never have to
a. be circumcised
b. remove your pubic hair
c. wash yourself after answering call of nature
d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals
e. clean your teeth
f. wash hands before eating
g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)
h. insects and vermin are not haram
i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)
j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm
k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex
So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
How can anyone strive to meet 2222 purity yet hold the view that they would not have to keep their private areas clean, wash themselves, wash what they eat on/keep them clean, clean their teeth, wash their hands, and be able to drink urine, eat feces or swallow sperm? There are things people must do to stay clean, not restricted to the examples you listed, applying the above principle seems more than sufficient, does it not? Why do you need a list, one that would naturally become out-of-date as mankind progresses as it is?
Regarding donkeys, it's cited as an example of grazing livestock used for transportation as opposed to food.
"And of the grazing livestock are carriers and those small. Eat of what Allah has provided for you and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
(Sahih International)
The SI translation for this verse is kinda odd, I don't understand where "too small" came from when wafarshan is referring to "meat" here. The Pickthall and Yusuf Ali are, imo, better
"And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you." (Pickthall)
"Of the cattle are some for burden and some for meat eat what Allah hath provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan for he is to you and avowed enemy. " (Yusuf Ali)
Reading 6142 in conjuction with 168
"And the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and adornment. And He creates that which you do not know. (Sahih International)
"And horses and mules and asses (hath He created) that ye may ride them, and for ornament. And He createth that which ye know not." (Pickthall)
"And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge." (Yusuf Ali)In my view, as a general principle we're not supposed to eat animals used for travel purposes.
Regarding anal sex, we know from the aforementioned 2222+surrounding verses that we are not to engage in sexual actvitiy with women during their menstrual cycles. I'm not a woman so a sister will probably be able to better explain this than I could, but to my understanding menstruation does not affect the anus, yet sex is not allowed full stop. It seems like as far as sex goes, the Quran only seems to recognize penis-to-vagina sex. Furthermore, the anus simply isn't designed for sexual activity (regardless of how widespread a practice it may have become in some cultures) and has health risks/damage associated to it. It would be for the best interests of both people to avoid it, I'd think.
Regarding circumcision, I am still kinda stumped on the clothing comparison you made earlier. It seems like you're just as stumped by justamuslim's "hypospadias & other conditions that prevent circumcision" though...I'm not sure where to go from here.
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The writers of hadith were not infallible. So I don?t take things lightly.
Where do you get the biography of each and every narrator?
There is evidence against abu huraira, yet he has stated the most hadiths.
Where's your proof? Show me a manuscript of the complete Quran which is dated before the year 633 CE.
I believe I stated this based on sunni sources, it?s not my claim. If you read the link I gave you earlier you?ll have a better idea it discusses about this. However if you want me to show you a manuscript of a complete Quran dating before 633, I can?t do that nor did I say I could. If you think that your argument is fair why don?t you show me the completed manuscript of the so called sahifa sadiqa.
Fitra means something which is natural. Other Hadith show that going against the Fitra is haram. And the Hadith is general, so it applies to women with regard to removing unclean hair, cutting nails, etc. However, there are some parts of the Hadith which are obviously only for men. For example
'A'isha reported The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said Ten are the acts according to fitraclipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)
Fitra isn?t only that also the narrator forgot the tenth. Part of the hadith criteria for it to be authentic is for the commentator to have excellent retention of memory. How come criteria applies in some cases and not in all?
Now the trimming mustache and letting beard grow obviously only apply to men since women dont have mustache or beard. As for circumcision, there is difference of opinion if it is necessary for women. But other Hadith show that even women should be circumcised but it is not obligatory only recommended.
So based on the vagueness of the hadith not stating who it is addressed to, there can be multiple opinions. Yet you cannot accept this in the Quran. Double standards ?
If circumcision is beneficial as you confess, then why doesnt God obligate it?
Drinking water is beneficial, exercise is beneficial. Do you need God to obligate it for you to know it is beneficial? Why didn?t God obligate it? See how your logic is flawed?
Anyway I?ve finished with this discussion.
The Quran does not obligate circumcision.
Hadith does not obligate it either.
One can extrapolate that it is a sunnah from hadith, that it is a ?fitra? however it is not mentioned as an obligation. None of the hadith evidence you put forth say it is an obligation.
Until you can prove that a hadith states believing man/women must perform circumcision to be considered in the fold of islam your argument is mute. Had you said it is a sunnah and it is commendable then you?d have some validity.
Also before you have a go at Quran Only people and state ridiculous claims, some of what you say is explained in the Quran but you fail to read the verses mentioned to you earlier. If you choose to be ignorant and choose your own understanding of what people believe than you are being dishonest to yourself.