How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

unknownuser

Couple of years go did my research on marriage/divorce and did not find verse in koran stating that witnesses are needed with marriage. However when it comes to divorce, an oath with God and two just human witnesses are needed. Now, there are those who say that marriage is a contract and witnesses are needed when two parties enter a contract and thus, marriage need to be witnessed. But then again, this is a deduction based on viewing marriage as a contract.

The Quran only recommended that witnesses must be used in the case of

debt (2282-283)
-orphans (46)
-criminal judge (415,1226,242-13)
-inheritance (5106-108
-re-married or divorced after waiting period (652)

I didn't find any single verse that said we need witnesses for starting nikah.
But according to my opinon, the function of witnesses in 652 is to make sure the couple remarried and divorce with peaceful manner.

Signing a contract is good because

But it's not obligatory in Quran for signing contract in Nikah.But now we lived in modern era with law science and system already developed.

So in this modern era, if we want the legal means we must wrote signature on the paper.

Man_of_Faith

Peace hawk99,

Protestants.

God bless you

hawk99

Peace hawk99,

Protestants.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

Thanks

God Bless

Farabi

Anyway, its funny to see people laugh at hadist that muhammad marry a 12 years old girl but on the other hand the person who laugh disaloow to marry a 12 years old girls who lost it virginity by a 15 years old boys, the moral is, is marriage is not allowed by some culture?. I think we need to define what is right and wrong, if not it would be a clash of civilization.

KTHRN

The believers are... those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouses... Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that , then they are the transgressors." (235-6)

?Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred, except for just cause, nor commit fornication; and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (but) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy.?
(Al-Furqan, 2568-69).

BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.

Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope

Mazhar

BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.

Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope

It is not allowed even when one is all alone in the wash room's tub. But those who are still the reptillians won't understand this.

IAMOP

BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.

Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope

Peace

If the matter was this simple and easy, you would still be doing your 5 daily prayers and hoping for the best day of your life, the day you get to orbit a black cube and kiss a smooth rock and be absolved of all your sins.

But it is not as simple as "hey guys, here's a verse, done".

Yet surely it IS. It should be. Something has gone seriously wrong. The same way that billions can (not) read 316 and magically find prohibition of music therein.

The system in the quran does not permit CHAOS. Plain and simple.

What we see today, is CHAOS. People having sex with 300 partners in a life time. Have 6 or 7 or even 20 kids, who they do not even know of. STDs, girlfriends and boyfriends getting together, breaking up. It is an orgy of depravity in all but name, and time scale. The fact that these people are not in a room at once, does it make a difference? Just because instead of a mere few seconds, they might wait a few days, weeks or months before switching partners, does it really make a difference?

But equally blameworthy is sexual repression and misunderstanding, the kind that tells an imam that rape is okay because the woman did not wear her hijab.

Satan has overtaken the people from both sides, this is clear for all to see. Somewhere in the middle lies the straight path.

Then also, you or the person you quoted has trimmed the verse, this is misleading and devious and wholly incorrect. Of course when you miss out the "and from those their right hands possess" part of the verse it will look as though this thread is an exercise in vanity. When really this thread somewhat revolves entirely around that latter part of the phrase.

If you remove any part of a verse, it is no longer quran, it is your imagination and fancy desire. And yes, you can have imagination and fancy desire that seeks to restrict and forbid, not just turn into a liberal rock music drugged up orgy. Just ask the Taliban, who have reached such a height of perversion that when God commands that all humans shall educate themselves (1736), yet still they have the idea that education is forbidden for females.

After considering that there is not a verse that requires a contract for starting nikah, I do not know what to say. I had always been under the vague impression of a contractual marriage. But again these are vestiges of Sunni-ism and my lenses are even still slightly clouded, after a decade to the point where I will imagine things in the quran and take them as obvious when actually... they had never ever been there in the first place, a mere semblance of hearsay that I had lapped up as an ignorant one of the past.

Is there proof that zina == sex between UNMARRIED people? This is where I find everything revolves. MMA, and the definition of Zina.

Zwj + zina = 100 lashes
MMA + zina = less lashes

But in both of these cases there is a solemn oath, which is broken, thus they earn the lashes.

What about in the case of two unmarried people? Then "zina" does not exist except as "fornication". Because A and B do not have obligation to each other, then C and D and E and Z, and Aleph and Gamma are all free to uh, enter (>D) the foray.

Yet in reality this is NOT THE SUNNATULLAH. A and B go out for a few months. B pisses off A and A terminates the relationship. C enters the foray and B gets possessive and there is a fight between B and C over A. There is nothing islamic about this, there is no peace here.

Yet if you are going to say Zina is two unmarried people then bring the CLEAR EVIDENCE from the Quran. Until you do so, you are following hearsay and conjecture
Just because a bunch of Arabs say Zina is this or that does not mean God does. The same arabs who like to think "hadeeth" means music, eh?

From these observations I am left entirely in suspense. Does God permit relations? What is marriage anyway?

What I understand now is that nikah and children are one and the same thing. Nikah is for the children no matter what, not that children are necessary for nikah though. Without nikah, NO CHILDREN. That is expressedly clear by God.

I just want to make sense of 424 - http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=24#%284241%29

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in chastity not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Whatever is the TRUTH of the matter, the final decisive word is given by your Creator in the verses between 423 and 428. From a point of rigorous mathematical logic, I observe that these verses are complete, in that they consider each and every single nuance that we are discussing.

What we must do is analyse the subtlety. For instance -

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you,
Wait, married woman, MMA, we can >D

Nope, Chuck Testa! voodoo

O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

So you can see for example here, we have MMA. MMA is a general term, it is not like "wife". MMA is dynamic. One person can be MMA to another but if the situation changes, no longer MMA. Two men can be MMA to each other as far as I know. All it means is that there is some kind of legal term that binds the two parties. It is not "boyfriend or girlfriend" but it COULD BE if that relation is allowed. Point being that MMA simply means, two people who have a right/obligation towards each other.

And know that, where there is a thirst, that there is quenching and that God presents only the most just, wholesome means of quenching the thirst He created.

And Allah desires that He should turn to you (mercifully), and those who follow (their) lusts desire that you should deviate (with) a great deviation.
Allah desires that He should make light your burdens, and man is created weak.

hmm

IAMOP

Under my analysis of 424, let's break it down;
Again here is the Quran Corpus Word By Word link, which is crucial to understand - http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=24#%284241%29

And lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property,

Man absolutely MUST give wealth to woman, that legitimises the relation

Taking (them) in chastity (muhsinina)

Man and woman are getting together to STAY TOGETHER, plain and simple, no "I'll stay with this girl until I find better then dump her in the ditch"
Please see further meanings - http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn#%2842419%29, of which you shall note that one is to guard, protect, like a fortress; a strong marriage is of course guarded, protected... like a fortress

Not committing lust/indecency (fahisha)

As again, this statement makes the above very clear. This is the difference between sensual relations of love, and sensual relations of lust and promiscuity. Some people have a single partner for 20 years, "unmarried". While others, on the very same "unmarried" level have 20 partners... in one year . So we can see here is specified the crucial difference between the two. One type is perfectly within their right, the other type has transgressed beyond all bounds.

Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

I have no comments here, I believe the prior clauses clarify it all.

Then also from the next clause/verse in 425 we have that secret sexual relations are expressedly forbidden. This should cut most of the fancy desire for sex outside of marriage for any sincere one. Let's not play dress up with our desires. Whether you are male or female part of you hopes that sex outside of marriage is legal so you can go and bang everything in sight then go get married and still have your cake and eat it. No, it doesn't work like this either and if you transgress, then that is what you have earned.

To summarise, here is my present understanding of the conditions that legitimise a sexual relationship

The man explicitly seeks the woman with his wealth
There is a firm and solemn intention to stay together, to be chaste, the marriage being fortified and resilient
There is a firm and solemn intention to not be lustful, meaning that it is not intentionally terminated to begin another such relationship which shall also be terminated for the purpose of getting sex
The relationship is entirely in the open and known to all. Under no circumstances shall there be secrecy in relationship. The permission of guardians is required in relevant cases. There shall be no confusion as to who is s3x0rz1ng whom.

Upon fulfillment of these conditions, this is a valid nikah. There is no contract involved but Allah is the witness to it all and there is no secrecy either, this is what nullifies the need for a contract in the first place. All other quranic clauses requiring contract can require a degree of privacy/necessary secrecy (debts, criminal matters, inheritance, orphans, etc) but this must explicitly be in the open. However if such a couple is to divorce, then there shall be a contract, because there is a limit on how many times a couple can get together and divorce and also that there is a waiting period, and inheritance matters, etc.

Quranically there is NO QUESTION of "unmarried" individuals getting together as there is no legitimacy herein. Man cheats on wife, mistress does not know about wife, this cannot happen. Sex outside marriage is illegal entirely. What the punishment is depends whether it is classed as Zina.

There is nothing complicated or furious or hassling about marrying someone quranically. A simple "here's some money, will you be mine" is marriage under the sight of the Supreme Witness. No 2 year engagement, no five hundred wedding invites, no "let's save up money for a deposit on a house", no ?100,000 wedding full of people you will never see again, no blah blah blah blah, no bullshit. IS THIS NOT PRECISELY WHY YOU DID NOT WANT TO MARRY IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO AVOID THE CULTURAL BULLSHIT?

However to divorce, is complicated and rightfully so for to be any simpler would bring injustice and God is not unjust in the least.

Get together for the sake of being with the person (chastity), not for the sake of sex/being in a relationship (lust)

Essentially... bang whoever the hell you damn please. Just don't break apart willy nilly, join with the intention of not being together permanently, or be assholes to each other and be wholesome and legitimate and secure about it, a volatile relationship is invalid to begin with. I feel totally at peace with this understanding. It is not that sex before marriage is legal or anything, it is much more like the concept of marriage as we understand "marriage" was never in the quran in the first place, a total sham, a total fiction. What the quran sanctions is explicit wholesome open relationship between two consenting beings with zero room for any possible unpeace.

peace

KTHRN

Wow wow

That's a long reply. So am I getting it right... You do not so much disagree with the fact that the Quran forbids sex outside of marriage (or with someone your right hand possess, yes) as you disagree with our current definition of marriage? I mean I understand that. In the time of Abraham, marriage was pretty much a man taking a woman from her parent's tent to come live with him in his tent... No contract, we don't even know for sure if there was a dowry. But all the same, there was an act that made these people then bound together as husband and wife, the community recognised it as such an for any other man to approach the woman then would be a grave mistake.

But still, if you want to defend, say, the intent to get married justifying the act of having sex before an act of marriage (however you define it), there is no real encouragement to be found for it in the Quran.. And why should it be? Apart from lustfull hookups, people who have sex before marriage may really think that they're going to be with that person ~forever~ (esp teenagers) and do not consider that this intent might fade or the other person may not be so truthfully well intentioned after all (too many people will say whatever to get to sex and then run).

However, most people will think twice before entering into a marriage, no "player" would be willing to pay the big sum of money and then afterwards be stuck with someone they are not allowed to evict from their homes, even after a divorce.

In a way, marriage ensures that the intent is actually genuine before getting to sex, it makes a sexual relationship, therefore, all the more special and honorable and not something to be trifled with. Anyway, I don't get the problem. If you love a person and would like to take them to bed AND you are willing to spend the rest of your life taking care of them etc, why not just get married?

IAMOP

That's my point.

It seems that the cultural dross and stigma around marriage, is what causes people to turn to sex before marriage. Because then you get a relationship without having 1000 people around you going "woah, you're married? blah blah blah blah blah". Nowadays marriage is like this huge officiated thing that is full of complications and familial crap, that nobody really wants it very early. It's just too serious. Hence, people turn to the boyfriend-girlfriend thing. Then it's like an "oh, so you're going out with so and so, cool" thing, and there is no huge fuss...

This is with regards to the sincere truthseekers. Of course, there are simply those who wish to have sex, and have lots of it.

Just remember... God encompasses the mind of a "player". Hence, the rules are made to disarm any of these psychopathic morons before they can do any damage to a genuine Godly society.

Whereas in this society, they run absolutely rampant. A player type person will run around the block and deflower all the women long before anyone else gets to them. This is life in the west, western males have actually gotten used to the idea that their wives have had 10, 20, 50 partners before them. It is depraved and diseased, and no wonder these marriages fall apart as soon as they are made. There is no value between the partners, really just an empty kind of love, a "we're waiting in the same purgatory as you are and we might as well wait together" concept.

In fact there is a huge anti-marriage movement in the west now. Now that the majority of people in the west have like 30 partners before marriage, there is no way you are getting a partner who will REALLY value you. Consequently there are a lot of people who take advantage of the marriage in every single way leading to the idea that marriage is a one way ticket to hell that only ever ends in bitter resent and tears. Because people blindly wander into choosing a partner based on false ideas. They do not discern, whether these people will help them towards God. Could you imagine a sincere truth seeking quran follower ever desiring to cheat on their partner? Yet in the west and a lot of the east, cheating has become the new stubbing your toe on a corner!

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

The moral decay "in the West" has "just" been going on for about a 100 years, before that it was common that people married and spent the life together. My grandparents on both sides spent their whole lives together until death came to them. The major decay started in the 1960's-70's as far as my own observation goes in my own country of origin, Sweden. Along the lines the church was also separated from the state and the church had lost most of their influence over the last decades before this happened.

I am sure the religious Faith had dramatically subsided by the end of the 19 and 20's century. It is a seemingly unstoppable chain reaction which has started.

It is the cultural and tight connection to religion which has spared the "East" from this decay, and that these countries have not developed as far as the "West". The moral decay has already started in the "East" for your information. I have only information from Iran in my case, but young people have boy/girlfriends and they dress in challenging ways and they want the Western loose style.

It seems inevitable that we are going into this decay, I think it will be even worse soon. Shaytaan has an easier time with His propaganda now that we can so easily keep informed and in contact with people.

Without a new Messenger the human race will not be able to return to this harmonious past with loving families and what was good. But at least the positive aspects are that abuse comes into the Light now and women are not mistreated to that extent these days.

Mankind will have to rethink their ways, which I doubt the majority will do since God has said the majority of humans are misguided.

There is too much freedom and carelessness in the minds of people. People do not care about modesty or responsibility or anything. It is chaos!

Sorry I got a bit over-dramatized. Well, I am sure most of you will understand what I was getting at.

God bless you

Sonny