How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

[IAMOP]

Under my analysis of 424, let's break it down;
Again here is the Quran Corpus Word By Word link, which is crucial to understand - http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=24#%284241%29

And lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property,

• Man absolutely MUST give wealth to woman, that legitimises the relation

Taking (them) in chastity (muhsinina)

• Man and woman are getting together to STAY TOGETHER, plain and simple, no "I'll stay with this girl until I find better then dump her in the ditch"
  Please see further meanings - http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn#%2842419%29, of which you shall note that one is to guard, protect, like a fortress; a strong marriage is of course guarded, protected... like a fortress

Not committing lust/indecency (fahisha)

• As again, this statement makes the above very clear. This is the difference between sensual relations of love, and sensual relations of lust and promiscuity. Some people have a single partner for 20 years, "unmarried". While others, on the very same "unmarried" level have 20 partners... in one year . So we can see here is specified the crucial difference between the two. One type is perfectly within their right, the other type has transgressed beyond all bounds.

Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

• I have no comments here, I believe the prior clauses clarify it all.

Then also from the next clause/verse in 425 we have that secret sexual relations are expressedly forbidden. This should cut most of the fancy desire for sex outside of marriage for any sincere one. Let's not play dress up with our desires. Whether you are male or female part of you hopes that sex outside of marriage is legal so you can go and bang everything in sight then go get married and still have your cake and eat it. No, it doesn't work like this either and if you transgress, then that is what you have earned.

To summarise, here is my present understanding of the conditions that legitimise a sexual relationship

• The man explicitly seeks the woman with his wealth
• There is a firm and solemn intention to stay together, to be chaste, the marriage being fortified and resilient
• There is a firm and solemn intention to not be lustful, meaning that it is not intentionally terminated to begin another such relationship which shall also be terminated for the purpose of getting sex
• The relationship is entirely in the open and known to all. Under no circumstances shall there be secrecy in relationship. The permission of guardians is required in relevant cases. There shall be no confusion as to who is s3x0rz1ng whom.

Upon fulfillment of these conditions, this is a valid nikah. There is no contract involved but Allah is the witness to it all and there is no secrecy either, this is what nullifies the need for a contract in the first place. All other quranic clauses requiring contract can require a degree of privacy/necessary secrecy (debts, criminal matters, inheritance, orphans, etc) but this must explicitly be in the open. However if such a couple is to divorce, then there shall be a contract, because there is a limit on how many times a couple can get together and divorce and also that there is a waiting period, and inheritance matters, etc.

Quranically there is NO QUESTION of "unmarried" individuals getting together as there is no legitimacy herein. Man cheats on wife, mistress does not know about wife, this cannot happen. Sex outside marriage is illegal entirely. What the punishment is depends whether it is classed as Zina.

There is nothing complicated or furious or hassling about marrying someone quranically. A simple "here's some money, will you be mine" is marriage under the sight of the Supreme Witness. No 2 year engagement, no five hundred wedding invites, no "let's save up money for a deposit on a house", no ?100,000 wedding full of people you will never see again, no blah blah blah blah, no bullshit. IS THIS NOT PRECISELY WHY YOU DID NOT WANT TO MARRY IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO AVOID THE CULTURAL BULLSHIT?

However to divorce, is complicated and rightfully so for to be any simpler would bring injustice and God is not unjust in the least.

Get together for the sake of being with the person (chastity), not for the sake of sex/being in a relationship (lust)

Essentially... bang whoever the hell you damn please. Just don't break apart willy nilly, join with the intention of not being together permanently, or be assholes to each other and be wholesome and legitimate and secure about it, a volatile relationship is invalid to begin with. I feel totally at peace with this understanding. It is not that sex before marriage is legal or anything, it is much more like the concept of marriage as we understand "marriage" was never in the quran in the first place, a total sham, a total fiction. What the quran sanctions is explicit wholesome open relationship between two consenting beings with zero room for any possible unpeace.

peace

[KTHRN]

Wow wow

That's a long reply. So am I getting it right... You do not so much disagree with the fact that the Quran forbids sex outside of marriage (or with someone your right hand possess, yes) as you disagree with our current definition of marriage? I mean I understand that. In the time of Abraham, marriage was pretty much a man taking a woman from her parent's tent to come live with him in his tent... No contract, we don't even know for sure if there was a dowry. But all the same, there was an act that made these people then bound together as husband and wife, the community recognised it as such an for any other man to approach the woman then would be a grave mistake.

But still, if you want to defend, say, the intent to get married justifying the act of having sex before an act of marriage (however you define it), there is no real encouragement to be found for it in the Quran.. And why should it be? Apart from lustfull hookups, people who have sex before marriage may really think that they're going to be with that person ~forever~ (esp teenagers) and do not consider that this intent might fade or the other person may not be so truthfully well intentioned after all (too many people will say whatever to get to sex and then run).

However, most people will think twice before entering into a marriage, no "player" would be willing to pay the big sum of money and then afterwards be stuck with someone they are not allowed to evict from their homes, even after a divorce.

In a way, marriage ensures that the intent is actually genuine before getting to sex, it makes a sexual relationship, therefore, all the more special and honorable and not something to be trifled with. Anyway, I don't get the problem. If you love a person and would like to take them to bed AND you are willing to spend the rest of your life taking care of them etc, why not just get married?

[IAMOP]

That's my point.

It seems that the cultural dross and stigma around marriage, is what causes people to turn to sex before marriage. Because then you get a relationship without having 1000 people around you going "woah, you're married? blah blah blah blah blah". Nowadays marriage is like this huge officiated thing that is full of complications and familial crap, that nobody really wants it very early. It's just too serious. Hence, people turn to the boyfriend-girlfriend thing. Then it's like an "oh, so you're going out with so and so, cool" thing, and there is no huge fuss...

This is with regards to the sincere truthseekers. Of course, there are simply those who wish to have sex, and have lots of it.

Just remember... God encompasses the mind of a "player". Hence, the rules are made to disarm any of these psychopathic morons before they can do any damage to a genuine Godly society.

Whereas in this society, they run absolutely rampant. A player type person will run around the block and deflower all the women long before anyone else gets to them. This is life in the west, western males have actually gotten used to the idea that their wives have had 10, 20, 50 partners before them. It is depraved and diseased, and no wonder these marriages fall apart as soon as they are made. There is no value between the partners, really just an empty kind of love, a "we're waiting in the same purgatory as you are and we might as well wait together" concept.

In fact there is a huge anti-marriage movement in the west now. Now that the majority of people in the west have like 30 partners before marriage, there is no way you are getting a partner who will REALLY value you. Consequently there are a lot of people who take advantage of the marriage in every single way leading to the idea that marriage is a one way ticket to hell that only ever ends in bitter resent and tears. Because people blindly wander into choosing a partner based on false ideas. They do not discern, whether these people will help them towards God. Could you imagine a sincere truth seeking quran follower ever desiring to cheat on their partner? Yet in the west and a lot of the east, cheating has become the new stubbing your toe on a corner!

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

The moral decay "in the West" has "just" been going on for about a 100 years, before that it was common that people married and spent the life together. My grandparents on both sides spent their whole lives together until death came to them. The major decay started in the 1960's-70's as far as my own observation goes in my own country of origin, Sweden. Along the lines the church was also separated from the state and the church had lost most of their influence over the last decades before this happened.

I am sure the religious Faith had dramatically subsided by the end of the 19 and 20's century. It is a seemingly unstoppable chain reaction which has started.

It is the cultural and tight connection to religion which has spared the "East" from this decay, and that these countries have not developed as far as the "West". The moral decay has already started in the "East" for your information. I have only information from Iran in my case, but young people have boy/girlfriends and they dress in challenging ways and they want the Western loose style.

It seems inevitable that we are going into this decay, I think it will be even worse soon. Shaytaan has an easier time with His propaganda now that we can so easily keep informed and in contact with people.

Without a new Messenger the human race will not be able to return to this harmonious past with loving families and what was good. But at least the positive aspects are that abuse comes into the Light now and women are not mistreated to that extent these days.

Mankind will have to rethink their ways, which I doubt the majority will do since God has said the majority of humans are misguided.

There is too much freedom and carelessness in the minds of people. People do not care about modesty or responsibility or anything. It is chaos!

Sorry I got a bit over-dramatized. Well, I am sure most of you will understand what I was getting at.

God bless you

[Sonny]

Peace,

The moral decay "in the West" has "just" been going on for about a 100 years, before that it was common that people married and spent the life together. My grandparents on both sides spent their whole lives together until death came to them. The major decay started in the 1960's-70's as far as my own observation goes in my own country of origin, Sweden. Along the lines the church was also separated from the state and the church had lost most of their influence over the last decades before this happened.

I am sure the religious Faith had dramatically subsided by the end of the 19 and 20's century. It is a seemingly unstoppable chain reaction which has started.

It is the cultural and tight connection to religion which has spared the "East" from this decay, and that these countries have not developed as far as the "West". The moral decay has already started in the "East" for your information. I have only information from Iran in my case, but young people have boy/girlfriends and they dress in challenging ways and they want the Western loose style.

It seems inevitable that we are going into this decay, I think it will be even worse soon. Shaytaan has an easier time with His propaganda now that we can so easily keep informed and in contact with people.

Without a new Messenger the human race will not be able to return to this harmonious past with loving families and what was good. But at least the positive aspects are that abuse comes into the Light now and women are not mistreated to that extent these days.

Mankind will have to rethink their ways, which I doubt the majority will do since God has said the majority of humans are misguided.

There is too much freedom and carelessness in the minds of people. People do not care about modesty or responsibility or anything. It is chaos!

Sorry I got a bit over-dramatized. Well, I am sure most of you will understand what I was getting at.

God bless you

I think you said everything people need to know. I agree with every word brother bravo
This topic can be locked now ;D

[KTHRN]

Mankind will have to rethink their ways, which I doubt the majority will do since God has said the majority of humans are misguided.

There is too much freedom and carelessness in the minds of people. People do not care about modesty or responsibility or anything. It is chaos!

I agree so much. It's not a problem of (lack of) religious state control, which is horrible in it's own right. Even if there is honest intent to guide people on a straight moral path, only God can truly wield that power over His creatures and He has chose NOT to make faith obligatory. It's a problem of personal control. Everyone knows, deep down, what is right and what is not. We just don't want to do the right thing, we have no personal honour, strength and resolve. We can only change ourselves from that self-indulging weakness and then let in God, no one else, to lead us on a better path.

Let's ourselves, try to pass that test then? And hope our wild young people in East and West will one day find the strength to kick Shaytan out of their doorsteps.

peace

[es]

I wish this thread could be condensed. I've read bits on between, but it's going to take me forever reading it from start to finish. There's so many interesting points being made throughout , it will probably be impossible to do. If it ever concludes, a summary would be nice.

[IAMOP]

This moral depravity has ALWAYS been around with man.

Who went into the whorehouse under the covers of the dark night! Assuredly, a long queue of very pure people!

It is today, that we are seeing

#1 - High population, meaning many many times more occurences of any incident despite the exact same % rate, thus giving the impression it is very common
#2 - Enhanced communication

With the latter, this is the problem. The lost, they seek the lost. They wander around blindly. Looking for "true love", something they were told is here by Disney.

They are not looking for faith in their partners. They have no idea what faith is. They have no idea how to discern.

For instance, if a girl wears a low-cut top, I have struck her off my list of potentials long long before I even see her in person. And I almost definitely will not talk to her. Or be friends with her or share reality with her in any way. It's got nothing to do with the top itself... I wouldn't give two shits if my partner wore one. But behind this, there is an idea in the mind. And this idea in the mind, while boobs may be very pretty, this idea is uglier than the smelliest of poop, if only you could behold it with form!

Yet when you delve into this girl's world... every day she will get like 5-20 messages from clueless rabidly horny grown boys (definitely not worthy of being called men, even if they are 45). They hang off her every word, and worship her. Of course really they are worshipping the obelisk between their own legs and they see her as a temple to fulfill their rites, their Makkah, their Hajj.

Many other signs. Ironically one sign, is narcissism. Having a trail of 5-20 or more boys who follow her and give her attention. She laps it up because she feels incomplete and even though she is incomplete, at least her ego derives transient fulfillment. A God-shaped hole in the soul.

Then also, girls who get drunk and lose themselves, I have nothing more to say here. I will not look twice at a girl who gets drunk and this is coming from someone who has explored the entire spectrum of chemical alteration, very rich words coming from myself! And I can say these words because I know what's up.

All in all from my observations it seems that most of the male/female sexually available populace has not grown beyond mere "drink water, eat food, poop, ejaculate" level conditioning. They do not possess higher insight, nor purpose. Consequently relations with such people will be fruitless. With the girls, expect a loose whore or a diva. With the guys, it will be a pathetic pushover who worships the girl's feet or a player who will use her like a ragdoll and throw her to the side, covered in fluids. Apologies for the crude depictions THIS is the reality of the "western" world. What to say about these poor men who marry a girl, who has a fetish for being used and abused? I have heard many many many depraved stories and I think if I related any to you, I would give this whole forum HIV or something, I don't really like thinking about them in case I spontaneously develop AIDS, syphilis, etc all at once.

And worst of all... this is God's way of punishing the imbeciles. You see, billions of years of evolution has led to every single woman, no matter how pure, having a very strong tendency towards men who have the ability to play girls and get lots of them. This is instinctive, this is primal, this cannot be overturned. No matter how pure and innocent a women, this is the very way the female of the species is hard-wired. However, purity => discernment. A pure woman who knows why she is here and which God she is here to serve cannot be led by this instinct.

But as soon as that purity slips, the emotions take over. The woman has signed her own death note. She will forever magically find herself more and more attracted to the men who will make her life a living hell. She will lap up the highs but at the end when she is old and wrinky and looks back and sees nothing but endless suffering, regret then shall she know that she rightfully earned the punishment of God. There is a similar such phenomenon of punishment decreed for men too, but it's a bit more nuanced and intricate. Rabidly horny men are of two parties; one party is abased and supports the diva/whore personality financially and may even raise children that are not his and the other party is sexually fulfilled (the players) but perpetually chases saltwater, never ever recieves gratification.

It all comes down to this
The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women

In the words of God himself! What more to say!

peace

[unknownuser]

BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.

Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope

I know who is the person who "claim sex outside marriage is allowed" in facebook group, you may know who uttered that statement too Katharina because I ever get discussion with him

After reading some of his statement in that facebook group, it's very clear if he intepretate the Quran not in literal text instead using his own reasoning and desire.

I'm afraid if you follow his advice.

Salaam

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

It depends on how you should interpret "what your right hand possesses". Sex without intention to stay with the person in question is not ideal. Sex without love and only for your desires seems quite shallow, irresponsible.

Other than that, it feels a bit demoralizing to have sex with a previously touched woman, at least if she had a lot of lovers before. If she had a reason to be divorced or widowed, it is okay, but a girl who has a lot of one night stands is a bit semi-disgusting.

Guard your private parts means to not let your wife down by "cheating" on her and I doubt it should be interpreted as no sex before marriage. Any sensible God-fearing man or young man should see that following your vain desires and especially wild sex lives rhyme poorly with a righteous life.

The bond between man and woman is meant to be and it is no temporary joy, simple reading and understanding of Quran reveals that. Yet love is a complicated thing and often imagined, man-made and it is rather a rush of hormones and nothing more. Bonding has more to do with intelligence and commitment. The bond is built on commitment and habits and having a partner for life who is there for you. That is what I believe is the fundament of a marriage, and why so many marriages break apart because they treat it as it should not be treated. It may be part of one's trial, wherefore most people fail because they had no Faith in the first place.

And to those who had to divorce out of mistreatment or violence there is no blame on them. There it can be a trial to get away from your Satan-possessed partner. But best is to reconcile.

We have to remember that your partner is probably the one you are going to spend your time in Paradise with, if she is worthy and a good Believer. Otherwise it is better to stay single for your life if that is not your intention. If s/he fails to get to Paradise you will be compensated with a new one, rest assured.

God bless you

[Leyna]

Without a new Messenger the human race will not be able to return to this harmonious past with loving families and what was good.

I don't think there ever was a harmonious past with loving families. Until recently, marriage had nothing to with love at all.

In early Muslim societies men could have sex with female slaves, even without their consent, and regardless of whether their wives agreed or not. Also, the concept of the wife's consent to marital sex was unheard of. This supposedly harmounious past is nothing but an illusion.

[Leyna]

All in all from my observations it seems that most of the male/female sexually available populace has not grown beyond mere "drink water, eat food, poop, ejaculate" level conditioning. They do not possess higher insight, nor purpose. Consequently relations with such people will be fruitless. With the girls, expect a loose whore or a diva. With the guys, it will be a pathetic pushover who worships the girl's feet or a player who will use her like a ragdoll and throw her to the side, covered in fluids. Apologies for the crude depictions THIS is the reality of the "western" world.

This can be observed allover the world, it is not a "Western" phenomenon. In fact, restrictive social norms which usually foster a double standard make it much easier for men to "throw a woman to the side" after they are done with her.

You see, billions of years of evolution has led to every single woman, no matter how pure, having a very strong tendency towards men who have the ability to play girls and get lots of them. This is instinctive, this is primal, this cannot be overturned. No matter how pure and innocent a women, this is the very way the female of the species is hard-wired.

Obviously I'm not a member of the female species since I seem to be lacking this "instinctive" and "primal" desire for a man like that. hmm

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Leyna,

I did not talk about abusive relationships, they have always existed. And love is relative, we cannot always feel that childish love if we are not very blessed I think. I think marriages are more about commitment and responsibility than love when we grow in years together.

This nuclear family commitment is what I feel is gone. Like I said that my grandparents lived together their whole lives.

God bless you

[IAMOP]

This can be observed allover the world, it is not a "Western" phenomenon. In fact, restrictive social norms which usually foster a double standard make it much easier for men to "throw a woman to the side" after they are done with her.
Obviously I'm not a member of the female species since I seem to be lacking this "instinctive" and "primal" desire for a man like that. hmm

Peace Leyna
Are you saying you are invulnerable to battered wife syndrome? Essentially that is what it is. But BWS is a subset of this conditioning. It is thoroughly well documented, that biologically a woman will seek the strongest male available.

But the fact you are AWARE of God, is what holds you away from that accursed path. Do not think it is of your own doing, that is pure folly. We have a desire to hold ourselves to be strong. I hear many people say "I don't need heaven or hell to tell right from wrong". What I read more like is "God is less wise than me" -

4333 - And were it not that all people had been a single nation, We would certainly have assigned to those who disbelieve in the Beneficent Allah (to make) of silver the roofs of their houses and the stairs by which they ascend.

Now my dear Leyna I can say I am lacking in the desire for big boobs and butt and apparently I am not a man but you and I both well know the REALITY of the situation. Which is that man, is created weak... entirely on purpose by God the Most Wise, emphasis on the Most, emphasis on the Wise. I know that if God did not guide me, I would be rabidly chasing women right now just like every single human being of my age who has not seen quranic light.

Fundamental truth of the human condition intense emotions override logic ALWAYS
What happens when things get hot and heavy? Intense emotions!
What type of man masters the art of creating situations where things get hot and heavy? hmm

Now, when a woman, however pure she is, gets into a hot + heavy situation with such a man, do you think she will be able to resist? Let me rephrase that, because I know the answer already. When things get hot and heavy beyond the point of no-return, do you think a woman will WANT to resist?
And this, is how the players get the notches on their bed-post, you see. I have seen many a woman say "hell no I won't"... often these girls have never even had a partner before

Guess what I hear the week after?

So if you hold yourself to be impervious to your own biology, then neither the scientific community, nor am I deceived in any way shape or form! Only you deceive your Self but I do not believe it for a second

5332 - Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil).

The only thing stopping any human being from a path of total ignorance and brutal hedonism, is God's guidance and will. You have to eat and poop, God does not. You cannot guide yourself, only God can.

And the funny thing is I have spoken to and seen countless many women who have fallen trap to players... And to watch them cry their eyes out thinking of how sad their "love" story is, is quite -\

Just because your hedonism does not bear resemblance to common hedonism does not mean you are free of the Shaitan that lurks within us all. Like I said, such holier-than-thou does not deceive those who are not you! God knows the secrets of the hearts and the stealthy glances, you think you are an exception?

Ironically this very conditioning response, which the Most Wise sought fit to condition over billions of years into mankind, this very response is the REASON why God prohibits promiscuity. Because it is a very sensitive biological circuit which works brilliantly to help a woman choose the ideal mate for her, if she is of pure mind. But when she loses purity this very same circuit goes haywire and creates a thought-complex, of which a subset can be classified as Battered Wife Syndrome. Really, it is simply the consequence of heedlessness. When God places those locks on the ears and eyes, such is the result.

Now, why am I making a big deal out of this? It's not the happenstance itself. It is the thought-form that gives rise to the happenstance here; to be successful one must eradicate all of these thought-forms. They are silent sparks in the brain, which give rise to thoughts of vanity and self-deception. These thought-forms are the silent Shaitan that lurks in wait, in every single one of our minds. And only via meditative concentration do they become visible. Otherwise these dark companions lead us astray while deceiving us into thinking we are doing good. These thought-forms bear little resemblance to that which springs forth from them. It could just as well be an idea, that you are charitable or forgiving, or this or that. The actual substance of the thought-form is generic and devoid of intrinsic specific-ness. It just waits for something you will find pleasing and latches on, and tumbles you into the abyss!

Peace be upon you

[Leyna]

Are you saying you are invulnerable to battered wife syndrome?

No. I was saying that I am not attracted to players and machos. And I object against the statement that "every women" has a tendency to be attracted to them. This is a grossly generalizing statement.

What happens when things get hot and heavy? Intense emotions!
What type of man masters the art of creating situations where things get hot and heavy? hmm

Now, when a woman, however pure she is, gets into a hot + heavy situation with such a man, do you think she will be able to resist? Let me rephrase that, because I know the answer already. When things get hot and heavy beyond the point of no-return, do you think a woman will WANT to resist?
And this, is how the players get the notches on their bed-post, you see. I have seen many a woman say "hell no I won't"... often these girls have never even had a partner before

I don't really understand what you are trying to say with this example. But in any case ? the above scenario happens just as well with reversed roles. Please do not tell me men are never helpless in the face of their own emotions and desires. In fact, irrational male behaviour caused by love or lust is well-documented in history and contemporary affairs.

[KTHRN]

Obviously I'm not a member of the female species since I seem to be lacking this "instinctive" and "primal" desire for a man like that. hmm

Lol! This

All my life has been a lie! I am actually a man, oh no!
There's a song that describes the feeling most believing women feel very well actually... )

[Sonny]

Since it was started this topic has nothing to do with Quran or Islam. Some admin should lock this s***

[supportpeacenotwar]

Since it was started this topic has nothing to do with Quran or Islam. Some admin should lock this s***

...and Sonny's back! (I mean no offense by this)

I think what believing men and women would want would be fairly similiar - loyalty, friendship, sincerity, down to earth, non-arrogant, kind, reserved in a modest way etc now finding that person.... that's another thing - but will happen (if it's meant to happen) by the leave and guidance of Allah swt.

[supportpeacenotwar]

But it is not as simple as "hey guys, here's a verse, done".

Yet surely it IS. It should be. Something has gone seriously wrong. The same way that billions can (not) read 316 and magically find prohibition of music therein.

The system in the quran does not permit CHAOS. Plain and simple.

What we see today, is CHAOS. People having sex with 300 partners in a life time. Have 6 or 7 or even 20 kids, who they do not even know of. STDs, girlfriends and boyfriends getting together, breaking up. It is an orgy of depravity in all but name, and time scale. The fact that these people are not in a room at once, does it make a difference? Just because instead of a mere few seconds, they might wait a few days, weeks or months before switching partners, does it really make a difference?

But equally blameworthy is sexual repression and misunderstanding, the kind that tells an imam that rape is okay because the woman did not wear her hijab.

Satan has overtaken the people from both sides, this is clear for all to see. Somewhere in the middle lies the straight path.

Peace IAMOP,

That's true, its not as simple as here's a verse and I think it means this so Bam, we're done. The Quran doesn't allow us to just read it and then we're finished. There's some sublety in there. The central Message of the Quran is simple but that does not mean that some discussion isn't necessary or allowable. The problem is when people go over the top and just discuss whether or not the Quran means this or that for the sake of it. This happens everywhere with all groups though.

[diamantinehoneybunch]

Salaam,

Everytime I view the Who's online board, I always see this thread being viewed by some guests.

This is crazy.

Regards,
Yuliana