:: Ramadhan Fasting or .....? ::

GODsubmitter

Thank you bro @Nomad for this nice post!

Glad to see you back! group

peace

sun

mmkhan

Salaam to all

sorry to come with some ideas about abstinence translation..and to add some evidencies about the mutual ulemah concensus about SAlla

Salaam NoMad,

Please be specific to the thread's topic. Thanks!

mmKhan

mmkhan

Salaam all,

Kaaf Laam Waw = Use
Sheen Ra Ba = Consume

Ta 3an Meem = Eat/Feed
Seen Qaaf Ya = Water/Drink

Kaaf Laam Waw
Use - not necessarily refer to food only and it refers to something which is not ready to use at it is

For example

2188 - - Kuloo is used with cash.
3130 - - Kuloo is used with riba/usury.
3183 - - Kuloo is used with fire.

6141
6141 And He it is who causes gardens to grow, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees and crops of different food and olives and pomegranates, similar and dissimilar. Eat of its fruit when it yields and give its due on the day of its harvest. And be not excessive. Indeed, He does not like those who commit excess.

In Arabic the word used in the above aayat is . This is because, it talks about the fruits which is not ready to eat directly. It may need washing, peeling off skin, taking out seeds, etc..

2236
2236 And the camels and cattle We have appointed for you as among the symbols of Allah ; for you therein is good. So mention the name of Allah upon them when lined up; and when they fell down on their sides, then eat from them and feed the needy and the beggar. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may be grateful.

In this aayat, both words and are used. Please note the part of this aayat which says "and when they are on their sides then from them". The word kuloo is used because the food is not yet ready to eat, when they just fell down on their sides after slaughtering. Now they are ready for "use" . Then comes the other part "and feed the needy and the beggar". Ta3am is used for feeding the needy and the beggars, that is the food which is ready to eat .

Sheen Ra Ba
Consume - not necessarily refer to drink and it refers to something which is not ready

For example

293 - - Ishriboo is used with the calf.

Ta 3an Meem
Eat/Feed - something which is ready to eat

For example

3353
3353 O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity.

Here the word clarifies its meaning without leaving any doubt with you compare it with blue part. Ta3am is something which is ready to eat and you may not be awaiting for its readiness.

Seen Qaaf Ya
Water/Drink - Something which is ready to drink

For example

2679
2679 And it is He who feeds me and gives me drink.

Here again the word ta3am also used and refers to drink, which is ready to use.

Now the question is what means in 2187?

together is always used with the context. Lets take a look at 2187.

2187
2187 It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.

Please note the points below to look at its context.

It has been made permissible/lawful for us to go to our wives at the nights preceding fasting .
They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them .
Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned onto you and forgave you .
Now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you .
And kuloo and ishriboo until white thread and black thread can be distinct from dawn .
Then complete your fast until night .
Do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques .
These are the limits of Allah, so do not approach them .
Like that Allah clarifies and explain His aayaat for people so that they may become righteous.

Hope this may be of help inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

dawngorgeous

Then the fasting mentioned in 2, 187 must be sex.

mmkhan

Salaam Dawn,

Yes 2187 is about sex, but how about 2183-2185?
And what exactly Saum means is explained in 1926.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

dawngorgeous

Peace mm,

I meant that the whole of the verse 187 must be about sex. The words translated as -eat and -drink must be figurative and must be referring to sex. Consume it and enjoy it until daybreak...then..?

Dawn.

mmkhan

Peace mm,

I meant that the whole of the verse 187 must be about sex. The words translated as -eat and -drink must be figurative and must be referring to sex. Consume it and enjoy it until daybreak...then..?

Dawn.

Peace Dawn,

Then..?

Thumma Atimmu alSiyaama ila alLayli...2187
alSiyaama is plural of Saum and what is Saum? It is defined in 1926.

If kulu wa-shraboo means eat-n-drink, then 1926 also talk about it while doing saum, hence it contradict with 2187.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Salaam,

This is an update to the opening post, inshaAllah.

There are three major questions asked by many people.

Why shahr means full-moon and why not a month?
How many days we have to fast?
What means saum or siyaam ?

InshaAllah, I will try to answer all these questions from alQuraan by the permission of my Lord, Allah.

Question
Why shahr means full-moon and why not a month?

2185
2185 The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful .

The highlighted part says "So whoever witnesses alShahr, so let him fast it". Here, if you take shahr as a month, please tell me how can you witness the month? You can witness a calendar, but not the month. Right?
If you think you can witness the month, I should ask, which calendar month? Gregorian's, Arabic's, Urdu's, Hindu's or Fiscal calendar? That is not mentioned in the aayat above.

Besides this, if you think that you can witness the month, then you have to fast a single day as per the above highlighted part. Which says, So whoever witnesses the month, so let him FAST IT. Yasum is the word used above is referring to a single saum, so no need to fast for a complete month, just one saum of the month will do.

Question
How many days we have to fast?

2185
2185 The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful .

When you understand that alShahr does not mean a month but a full-moon, the same highlighted part above shows us the number of days to fast.

When you witness a full-moon, you have to fast it. Then again if you witness a full-moon next day, you have to fast it. This is how it goes. There might be 3 full-moons, or 5 full-moons, or 7 full-moons . But I have witnessed 3 full-moons last year and this year 5.

This is the reason I think "ayyaman ma3doodatin" is used, that means "a limited number of days" and a fixed number of days are not given clearly.

Question
What means saum or siyaam ?

Without going into confusions, it is simple to see the definition of word saum in 1926.
If you take "kuloo wa ishraboo" means "eat and drink", then you can see a contradiction between 2187 and 1926 as the definition of saum in 1926 starts with eat and drink.

1926
1926 So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to man.' "

Hope this may help inshaAllah. This is just my personal understanding, please check all the quoted aayaat carefully before accepting it.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

justamuslim

Mmkhan,

I have been reading your posts intently and digesting them. In verse 2183, the word used is ALsiyam which implies a specific type. Not just any Siyam. But ALsiyam. In verse 1926, Siyam is used.

Any thoughts on that? Mind sharing.

Looking forward to your posts. Thanks.

mmkhan

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

Pease sPnW,

Thank you for your input, I agree handshake

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

justamuslim

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

mmkhan

Mmkhan,

I have been reading your posts intently and digesting them. In verse 2183, the word used is ALsiyam which implies a specific type. Not just any Siyam. But ALsiyam. In verse 1926, Siyam is used.

Any thoughts on that? Mind sharing.

Looking forward to your posts. Thanks.

Peace justamuslim,

Thanks.
As per my understanding the usage of AL is given in this thread. Please follow, it may be helpful, inshaAllah. The word sauman used in 1926 simply means "a fast".

You are welcome.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

Peace,

Is 2133 helpful for you, inshaAllah?

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

Peace justamuslim,

Hmm, I've really got to look into this further. For the moon, witnessing it may mean the sighting of the full moon for example. So we see it for that day and moment in time and it's that moment in time that's related to the fast. As the full moon won't always be the same each month or year as well, it would need to witnessed each time. That's one way to look at it. In terms of witnessing the month - that's something everyone here on Planet Earth will know full stop. The timing of it isn't so much an issue as something like a full moon etc, we know when it is... I hope I'm explaining that clearly. As to whether these are Arabic expressions, I'm not sure but lets say you need to witness something to trigger the timing of an event - a full moon or something like that seems to fit more, right now the way I view it, than an actual month. These are more my preliminary thoughts as well as further reflection. Of course, Allah knows best.

hawk99

Peace justamuslim,

Hmm, I've really got to look into this further. For the moon, witnessing it may mean the sighting of the full moon for example. So we see it for that day and moment in time and it's that moment in time that's related to the fast. As the full moon won't always be the same each month or year as well, it would need to witnessed each time. That's one way to look at it. In terms of witnessing the month - that's something everyone here on Planet Earth will know full stop. The timing of it isn't so much an issue as something like a full moon etc, we know when it is... I hope I'm explaining that clearly. As to whether these are Arabic expressions, I'm not sure but lets say you need to witness something to trigger the timing of an event - a full moon or something like that seems to fit more, right now the way I view it, than an actual month. These are more my preliminary thoughts as well as further reflection. Of course, Allah knows best.

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

wit?ness/wtns/ Show Spelled Show IPA
verb (used with object)

to see, hear, or know by personal presence and perception to witness an accident.
to be present at (an occurrence) as a formal witness, spectator, bystander, etc. She witnessed our wedding.
to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of.
to attest by one's signature He witnessed her will.
verb (used without object)
to bear witness; testify; give or afford evidence.

Have a blessed ramadan

peace

justamuslim

Peace,

Is 2133 helpful for you, inshaAllah?

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

Witness = being alive, present and seeing something yourself.

it does not make sense to say "so whoever Shahida among you alshahra" ?...whoever is alive and present among you... Makes absolutely no sense to me.

This whole verse 2183-188 - how it is translated just does not make sense to me. I have been trying for the past 20+ years.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace hawk99,

I'd look into the different ways the term shahid/witness is used in the Quran. Does the definition of a sighting fit best here in this verse and context or presence? When it says that "shahida" for 318, I don't think it means present at occurence.

Laleh Bakhtiar translation
God bore witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels and those imbued with the knowledge, the ones who uphold equity. There is no god but He, The Almighty, The Wise.

Abdel Haleem
God bears witness that there is no god but Him, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise.

So again, we would take the whole verse into context. I can understand what you are saying but I am trying to find the best fit taking into consideration different options. Like I said, I am pondering this further.

Ramadan Mubarak

justamuslim

Peace justamuslim,

Thanks.
As per my understanding the usage of AL is given in this thread. Please follow, it may be helpful, inshaAllah. The word sauman used in 1926 simply means "a fast".

You are welcome.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

will be looking into it. Thanks.

hawk99

Peace hawk99,

I'd look into the different ways the term shahid/witness is used in the Quran. Does the definition of a sighting fit best here in this verse and context or presence? When it says that "shahida" for 318, I don't think it means present at occurence.

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I apologize I thought you were referring to 2/185

as far as 3/18 is concerned the word attest would be a better "english"
translation.

at?test/tst/ Show Spelled Show IPA
verb (used with object)

to bear witness to; certify; declare to be correct, true, or genuine; declare the
truth of, in words or writing, especially affirm in an official capacity to attest the
truth of a statement.
to give proof or evidence of; manifest His works attest his industry.
to put on oath.
verb (used without object)
to testify or bear witness (often followed by to ) to attest to the reliability of an employee.
noun
Archaic. witness; testimony; attestation.

Enjoy your ramadan

peace