Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers

Mazhar

Peace god1quran1,

I hope it is known as to what is the importance and priorities set by structuring of compound sentences. Everything flows after first is accepted. They are not accepting the first, thereby, the second they also wish to determine their selbes about it.

ansmeh1998

@Mazhar, Salaam!

So you say, "Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance" essentially means physical standing bowing and prostration while uttering some Quranic as well as non-Quranic verses / stuff (which you do not call ritual by the way) five time a day - (i) Fazr i.e. Morning prayer (ii) Zuhr i.e. Noon Prayer (iii) Asr i.e. Afternoon Prayer (iv) Maghrib i.e. Evening Prayer (v) Isa i.e. Night Prayer. Kindly clarify clearly so as to have a grasp on this issue. I hope your good self will clearly define the understanding of "Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance" meant as Salat by you. Thanks a lot.

hawk99

The prohibition not to perform As-sa'laat is when a man is not in the state of self-awareness lacking conscious understanding of his verbal expressions-language. It is thus abundantly evident that is NOT a ritual. According to dictionary ritual is defined as an established and prescribed pattern of observance, performance of formal acts the observance of actions or procedures in a set, ordered, and ceremonial way; system of rites the system of set procedures and actions of a group. But a perception of monotony and routine has also become associated to it when this is referred for a religious activity. Ritual is usually the concern and domain of Non-Declarative Memory which can be performed without being consciously aware of happenings.

Peace,

Mazhar, your definition of ritual is correct except " Ritual is usually the concern
and domain of Non-Declarative Memory which can be performed without being consciously
aware of happenings". you and others here are confusing ritual with rote

rote
/rt/

noun

noun rote

mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.

"a poem learned by rote in childhood"

synonyms mechanically, automatically, unthinkingly, mindlessly;

God bless

peace

Mazhar

Peace,

Mazhar, your definition of ritual is correct except " Ritual is usually the concern
and domain of Non-Declarative Memory which can be performed without being consciously
aware of happenings". you and others here are confusing ritual with rote

rote
/rt/

noun

noun rote

mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.

"a poem learned by rote in childhood"

synonyms mechanically, automatically, unthinkingly, mindlessly;

God bless

peace

Thanks for pointing out the delicacies of ritual and rote. However, you perhaps missed the qualifying word "usually". A ritual does become rote for majority of people and the concern of non-declarative memory-things done as habit not necessarily involving conscious brain like in driving and parade of soldiers etc.

established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, e.g. in a religion
performance of formal acts the observance of actions or procedures in a set, ordered, and ceremonial way (often used before a noun)
a ritual dance
system of rites the system of set procedures and actions of a group
Orthodox ritual
unchanging pattern a pattern of actions or words followed regularly and precisely (informal)
the weekend car-washing ritual
biology set form of communication a set sequence of actions that an animal uses to communicate information or to reinforce social cohesion
mating rituals
psychology repetitive behavior an inflexible, stylized, and often repetitive sequence of actions, e.g. repeated hand-washing, that may indicate an obsession

Mazhar

@Mazhar, Salaam!

So you say, "Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance" essentially means physical standing bowing and prostration while uttering some Quranic as well as non-Quranic verses / stuff (which you do not call ritual by the way) five time a day - (i) Fazr i.e. Morning prayer (ii) Zuhr i.e. Noon Prayer (iii) Asr i.e. Afternoon Prayer (iv) Maghrib i.e. Evening Prayer (v) Isa i.e. Night Prayer. Kindly clarify clearly so as to have a grasp on this issue. I hope your good self will clearly define the understanding of "Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance" meant as Salat by you. Thanks a lot.

Salam,

Pl find time to go through it; for convenience it is sub divided in eight topics

Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance The Key of the door of success

hawk99

Peace Mazhar,

I did not miss your qualifier "usually" as you are the one defending As-salat, which I
commend you for doing so, but others who attack As-salat as being a ritual. Yes
as-Salat is ritual, but rituals can be a good and even an excellent behavior

Studying Quran every day
Washing the hands when leaving the bathroom
Cleaning one's environment regularly
Going to work same time everyday
Performing salat on time (one has to remember or be reminded to remember God)
which is an excellent habit
Checking in on family at intervals
Hajj
Teaching children good habits

Nature is filled with rituals

Seasons change
The sun rises and sets
Phases of the moon
Animal mating rituals
Animal migration
Solar cycles............ just to name a few

God bless

peace

god1quran1

Peace Mazhar,

I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.

The later verses I quoted are very clear that Shuaib has not confined himself to some physical set of actions but is actually an activist who is dedicating his time and resources to reform the Madyan people. If Shuaib were performing a as-salaat as a ritual, there would be no reason for the leaders of Madyan to threaten him with stoning.

Peace god1quran1,
I hope it is known as to what is the importance and priorities set by structuring of compound sentences. Everything flows after first is accepted. They are not accepting the first, thereby, the second they also wish to determine their selbes about it.

The compound sentences are providing details of Shuaib's salaat.

god1quran1

Peace god1quran1,

Yes salat is a behavioral modification practice to be performed at specific times.

Peace Hawk,

You only need to the whole muslim world to see how that is working out for them. Sorry but I just could not help being a little sarcastic. )

Sahih International And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.
11/1

God bless

peace

I can accept your understanding as long as by 'establishing prayer' you mean studying and reflecting on Quran verses and not engage in performing a set of physical actions that goes against the Quranic principles of using ones mind and intellect to get closer to God.

god1quran1

Peace Mazhar,

I did not miss your qualifier "usually" as you are the one defending As-salat, which I
commend you for doing so, but others who attack As-salat as being a ritual. Yes
as-Salat is ritual, but rituals can be a good and even an excellent behavior

Studying Quran every day
Washing the hands when leaving the bathroom
Cleaning one's environment regularly
Going to work same time everyday
Performing salat on time (one has to remember or be reminded to remember God)
which is an excellent habit
Checking in on family at intervals
Hajj
Teaching children good habits

Nature is filled with rituals

Seasons change
The sun rises and sets
Phases of the moon
Animal mating rituals
Animal migration
Solar cycles............ just to name a few

God bless

peace

Peace Hawk,

I would have to say the majority in your list do not qualify as rituals.

From wikipedia

"A ritual "is a stereotyped sequence of activities involving gestures, words, and objects, performed in a sequestered place, and designed to influence preternatural entities or forces on behalf of the actors' goals and interests." Rituals may be prescribed by the traditions of a community, including a religious community. Rituals are characterized by formalism, traditionalism, invariance, rule-governance, sacral symbolism and performance."

ansmeh1998

Brother Hawk99, Salaam!

As far as I understand there is a difference between (i) Being subservient to rule of law, and (ii) Rituals

The former requires (a) Purity (b) Humbleness (c) Commitment with Awe (e) Full knowledge of the actions we do (e) Balanced approach with no scope for if and but.

Whereas the later i.e. Ritual is tantamount to (a) Pretention (b) Arrogance (c) Just a formality, nothing serious (d) Rigidness towards non-existent (e) fanaticism

Brother Mazhar, Salaam!

I must appreciate for your research work about Salat which you referred to. I got the opportunity to read it out. I found it very exhaustive. But I am sorry, maybe due to my limited acumen, I didn?t find them convincing enough. To me, I see the term Salat has been understood in a twisted way in the Article to fit in the popular traditional point of view. The wilful attempt of people to ritualize the Salat this way or that way disturbs me personally, as I find them adopting twisted approach

(i) Those who want to idolize Ka?aba and Mecca find superiority of Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) and advocate origination of Salat with Prophet Ibrahim blatantly ignoring the fact that Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) was the follower of the footsteps of Prophet Nuh(PBUH) as is evident from Quran ? 3783.

(ii) Those who want to idolize Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), trace the root of institution of Salat in Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) while ignoring the facts clearly delineated in the verses of Quran

a. 333 ? From Adam to Prophet Muhammad (PBUT), each and every one of them was the chosen
Servant of Allah(swt).
b. 4163 ? Allah(swt) sent the Revelations to Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as were sent to Nuh and
the Prophets after him (PBUT).
c. 4164 ? Other Messengers about whom Quran mentions or mentions not were also blessed with
the revelations without discrimination.
d. 684 ? Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) and his descendents were guided the same way as Prophet Nuh
(PBUH) was guided by Allah(swt).
e. 4213 ? The same ?Deen? has been prescribed to the Human Being through Prophet Muhammad
(PBUH) as was prescribed to Prophet Nuh and other other Prophets (PBUT).

(iii) Those who want to thrust upon the five traditional salat(s) interpret the term ?Salawat? in 2238
suited to their whims and fancies to justify their claim without adhering to the consistency with
respect to 2157, 999, 2240, 239.

(iv) There are many more twisting which people resort to for advocating institutionalization of
ritualized form of Salat.

I think you need to revisit the entire concept de-novo.

May Allah(swt) lead us to the Truth.

hawk99

Peace Hawk,
You only need to the whole muslim world to see how that is working out for them. Sorry but I just could not help being a little sarcastic. )

Peace god1quran1,

Sarcasism acknowledged ) however one cannot blame salat for the ills of the community.

Peace Hawk,
I can accept your understanding as long as by 'establishing prayer' you mean studying and reflecting on Quran verses and not engage in performing a set of physical actions that goes against the Quranic principles of using ones mind and intellect to get closer to God.

why must one exclude the other?

Peace Hawk,
I would have to say the majority in your list do not qualify as rituals.

Which are not rituals? Give list.

Brother Hawk99, Salaam!
As far as I understand there is a difference between (i) Being subservient to rule of law, and (ii) Rituals
Whereas the later i.e. Ritual is tantamount to (a) Pretention (b) Arrogance (c) Just a formality, nothing serious (d) Rigidness towards non-existent (e) fanaticism

Peace ansmeh1998,

Please supply the source of your definition. Your definition appears unfounded, personal
and angry.

God bless

peace

Mazhar

The compound sentences are providing details of Shuaib's salaat.

Details are found in dependant-subordinate clauses not in compound sentences which comprise of two independent clauses-both are independent sentences.

Mazhar

The later verses I quoted are very clear that Shuaib has not confined himself to some physical set of actions but is actually an activist who is dedicating his time and resources to reform the Madyan people.

Just peruse the text where AsSallat is discussed and you will find all such reformative instructions alongwith it prescribed for People of Book, and believers.

Mazhar

I can accept your understanding as long as by 'establishing prayer' you mean studying and reflecting on Quran verses and not engage in performing a set of physical actions that goes against the Quranic principles of using ones mind and intellect to get closer to God.

People have personal choices and relate them to so called Quranic principles. Principles are simply described

Mazhar

ansmeh1998;

Salamun alaika,

Thanks for your feedback.

As-Salat is mandatory and is mentioned by the Messengers beginning with Ibrahim alahissalam the builder of Kaa'ba. Peruse the whole Qur'aan and find if any of the elevated Messengers of Allah the Exalted before Ibrahim alahissalam had ever mentioned it to his people.

Mazhar

ansmeh1998, Please comment on this part

The point in time in human history when Salaat was prescribed and ordered to be institutionalized.
The point in time in human history when Salaat was prescribed and ordered to be institutionalized

As-Salaat is demonstration of allegiance and servitude showing belief in only one Sustainer Lord. This is what they referred, they wanted to continue with polytheism.

ansmeh1998

Salaam Brother Mazhar,

I read the portion of the exhaustive article that your good self suggested. I would like to make following observations

1958-59 ? Each and every prophet irrespective of the time was the one who devotedly adhered to
Salat.

(So the claim that Salat was enjoined from Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) does not hold water.)

319, 4213, 384-85, 1072, 2278 ? All Prophets were Muslim.

(So claiming Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) as the father of Muslims is erroneous.)

The dweller of pre-conceived minds who advocate ritualistic Salat lay emphasis on Ka?aba being built by Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Ismail (PBUT) by twisting the meaning of some of the verses whereas none of the verses in Al-Quran suggest that Ka?aba was built by them (at least for the first time).

None of the verses of Al-Quran suggest that the previous prophets performed ritualistic Salat five times a day. I don?t know why there is an insistence for labeling Salat as a ritual.

I reiterate my earlier observation that you need to revisit the entire concept de-novo.

May Allah(swt) lead us to the Truth.

Mazhar

1958-59 ? Each and every prophet irrespective of the time was the one who devotedly adhered to
Salat.

(So the claim that Salat was enjoined from Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) does not hold water.)

You need to read it with open eyes and mind starting from 1902. And see names of Messengers referred therein who maintained the instiution of Salaat and generations after them lost it.

Other Ayahs are also quoted therein in the article. Why not you refer them and refute the translation thereunder?

ansmeh1998

Salaam brother Azhar,

Have you read them carefully from 1902 to 1959? Do you deny my observation - Each and every prophet irrespective of the time was the one who devotedly adhered to Salat? I don't know why you are in doubt? I would request you to kindly read again for the sake of clarity.

May Allah(swt) lead us to the Truth.

Mazhar

Salaam brother Azhar,

Have you read them carefully from 1902 to 1959? Do you deny my observation - Each and every prophet irrespective of the time was the one who devotedly adhered to Salat? I don't know why you are in doubt? I would request you to kindly read again for the sake of clarity.

May Allah(swt) lead us to the Truth.

Salamun alaika,

You ignore qualifications attached. They all are from and after Ibrahim alshissalam; and not each and every. He was the first who was required to institute the Protocol of As-Salat.