is Hajj a once in a life time thing, or something to do with everyday........
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But other main thing - God Doesn't tell anyone don't fight in a masjid, He simply says don't fight full stop (accept in war) .
Are you familiar with Quran 2191
...and do not fight them in the presence of al masjid al haram until they fight you fee/in it...?
So what you said People shouldnt do xyz at hajj , but can otherwise is totally , uncanny.
Mz357, you know from our past discussions I do not consider your logic sound, which one can forgive, but please do not misrepresent me and put words in my mouth. I never said such a thing. This is your own conclusion based on your own reasoning, not my reasoning, see the key phrase in bold below demonstrating it is your interpretation/reasoning
exapmle
when going about dealing with others Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling........but if we say hajj is a three day event or 4 months event......then to to say let there be no wickedness on hajj ....is simply saying that wickedness is allowed and acceptable otherwise.
I reject your reasoning.
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Are you familiar with Quran 2191
...and do not fight them in the presence of "m until they fight you fee/in it...?
I did not say "al masjid al haram". I did mean a normal masjid - ask any Muslim to know what that is.
al hajj is open to all mankind, not only believers, thus they (mankind) may not be following any particular guidance as believers do with Quran, hence are told XYZ about behaviour.
well i thought that meant how i put it - so i missunderstood your post.
I reject your reasoning.
Thanks to God.
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I did not say "al masjid al haram". I did mean a normal masjid - ask any Muslim to know what that is.
Ahhh, then tell us what is the difference between "masjid" and "al masjid al haram" that will negate the point I am making?
And I do hope you realise I just picked one verse, there are other verses which discuss doing certain things with or in masjid etc.
well i thought that meant how i put it - so i missunderstood your post.
Perhaps I can simplify for you
believers are upholding Quran, and in this Quran it tells believers to act a certain way, do this, that etc.
The rest of mankind may not believe in Quran, may not uphold Quran BUT "al hajj" is open to all IF one abides by certain criteria/guidance/recommendations, hence the criteria/guidance is given, e.g. no XYZ in "al hajj".
So, the simple predicament is what if a person does not believe in Quran, but wants to attend "al hajj" for the benefits, trade, food etc - can they just go and do what they want when there? Yes/No.
If you answer "no", then tell us, how should Quran go about advising them with regard to basic rules of behaviour when there?
Don't run away 357.
ps - by the way, it is ok to say something like "I dont believe al hajj is some finite event, so the above does not apply to my view. I think it's something all the time, but I haven't formulated what exactly it is"
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Ahhh, then tell us what is the difference between "masjid" and "al masjid al haram" that will negate the point I am making?
well i was simply referring to the normal understanding of a msjid as a stone structure, but if you ask me the difference of the quranic masjid and masjid al haram, well one is haram and one isn't.
And I do hope you realise I just picked one verse, there are other verses which discuss doing certain things with or in masjid etc.
Please bring some to this table.
But a law that is appliccable throughout the land can't be tied to one location by the government of the land, irrespective of how important the place.
Perhaps I can simplify for you
believers are upholding Quran, and in this Quran it tells believers to act a certain way, do this, that etc.
That is fine , but to say there must be "no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling" during a certain period of time is indicative of the fact that it is acceptable otherwise.
The rest of mankind may not believe in Quran, may not uphold Quran BUT "al hajj" is open to all IF one abides by certain criteria/guidance/recommendations, hence the criteria/guidance is given, e.g. no XYZ in "al hajj".
So, the simple predicament is what if a person does not believe in Quran, but wants to attend "al hajj" for the benefits, trade, food etc - can they just go and do what they want when there? Yes/No.
If you answer "no", then tell us, how should Quran go about advising them with regard to basic rules of behaviour when there?
Now i know what you mean , your saying that this is an invitation to the rest of mankind who don't observe the quranic laws anyway , to behave themselves. And i don't think you believe in the Hajj that takes place in Saudi Arabia, Your Hajj is somewhat different.
Why on earth will people who believe in obscenity, wickedness, wrangling want to come to your Hajj?
The Ayah's are simply telling people no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in your daily affairs please, because that is what benefits mankind in general.
ps - by the way, it is ok to say something like "I dont believe al hajj is some finite event, so the above does not apply to my view. I think it's something all the time, but I haven't formulated what exactly it is"
Absolutely it is something that we do daily.
peace
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well i was simply referring to the normal understanding of a msjid as a stone structure, but if you ask me the difference of the quranic masjid and masjid al haram, well one is haram and one isn't.
Yes, but I meant how does this difference negate my point.
Please bring some to this table.
No problem, please see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
I even make a nice summary at the end.Why on earth will people who believe in obscenity, wickedness, wrangling want to come to your Hajj?
So the discussion has moved on from your original objection to this new one. Good.
The Ayah's are simply telling people no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in your daily affairs please, because that is what benefits mankind in general.
Absolutely it is something that we do daily.
Thank you for clarifying your view. When you have time, please formulate an analysis of the verses that renders your view logical. Don't rush, take your time.
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Perhaps you miss a rather obvious point
al hajj is open to all mankind, not only believers, thus they (mankind) may not be following any particular guidance as believers do with Quran, hence are told XYZ about behaviour.
Red highlight above is from me.
928,
O you who believe, the Mushriks are impure indeed, so let them not approach Al-Masjid-ul-Haram after this year. And if you apprehend poverty, then, Allah shall, if He wills, make you self-sufficient with His grace. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Peace,
Khalil -
Just believe in God and try to do Good to others, i know that may not be much of a religion but to me it is all anyone needs.
peace
Peace,
I find these kind of statements to be disingenuous, if you were sincere, the thread would
not be taking the course that it is taking. You say above " do Good to others" then
ridicule, attempt to humiliate, double talk while all along claiming to " do Good to others"''no fighting in class", does that mean fighting is okay outside of class? No, right?
rotfl rotfl
The quistion are you allowed to do these things any time, at all?? (apart from war of course)
rotfl
I have been to hajj about five times - that was some time ago, and my best of friends are Mulsims.
(a friend huh?) -
Red highlight above is from me.
928,
O you who believe, the Mushriks are impure indeed, so let them not approach Al-Masjid-ul-Haram after this year. And if you apprehend poverty, then, Allah shall, if He wills, make you self-sufficient with His grace. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Peace,
KhalilAmazing Khalil.
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peace Khalil,
I am aware of that verse, and I am also aware of the chapter it comes from, chapter 9. The answer lies therein in my view.
However, IF you are implying "al hajj" is open to mankind except "the mushriks" then please let us know how we identify "the mushrik". Thanks.
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peace Khalil,
I am aware of that verse, and I am also aware of the chapter it comes from, chapter 9. The answer lies therein in my view.
However, IF you are implying "al hajj" is open to mankind except "the mushriks" then please let us know how we identify "the mushrik". Thanks.
If someone openly announces worshiping other than GOD, ALLAAH, swt, alone is a mushrik, like the majority of Christians.
Peace,
Khalil -
Okay , so AlmasjidAlharam isn't part of ALHaj then! yes
Al Haj for all Menyes.
2227
"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; -
peace,
If someone openly announces worshiping other than GOD, ALLAAH, swt, alone is a mushrik, like the majority of Christians.
Ahh you mean those who openly announce it, not actually all "mushrikeen".... as there are "mushrikeen" who don't know it, that is why I asked
And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
Then, not for them will be a plea except to say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.In my view, it simply refers to the mushrikeen who broke the treaty, see chapter 9.
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Okay , so AlmasjidAlharam isn't part of ALHaj then! yes
Al Haj for all Menyes.
2227
"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;357, have you even read ALL Quran occurrences of the word you are trying to figure out? Surely that is a good place to start!
Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind... 2225
I recommend actually reading all Quran occurrences of X before concluding about X. I find this technique useful.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html -
Okay , so AlmasjidAlharam isn't part of ALHaj then! yes
Al Haj for all Menyes.
2227
"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;1). Al-Masjidulharaam is an integral and very important part of Hajj and Umrah pilgrimages.
2). Hajj pilgrimage is for all the people, but not allowed for POLYTHEISTS/MUSHRIKs.
Peace,
Khalil -
If someone dies as a mushrik, he /she is destined to go to hell. They are part of mankind too.
Peace,
KhalilKhalil,
if they are part of mankind, then they are being invited to hajj , here-
2227
"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;and here to almasjidalharam.
Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind... 2225
and not to let them here
928,
O you who believe, the Mushriks are impure indeed, so let them not approach Al-Masjid-ul-Haram after this year. And if you apprehend poverty, then, Allah shall, if He wills, make you self-sufficient with His grace. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Are they part of Mankind ?
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Khalil,
if they are part of mankind, then they are being invited to hajj , here-
2227
"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;and here to almasjidalharam.
Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind... 2225
and not to let them here
928,
O you who believe, the Mushriks are impure indeed, so let them not approach Al-Masjid-ul-Haram after this year. And if you apprehend poverty, then, Allah shall, if He wills, make you self-sufficient with His grace. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Are they part of Mankind ?
All people were invited for Hajj pilgrimage till before 928 was revealed. After that mushrik people were band from entering the sacred mosque at any time.
Peace,
Khalil -
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! The idolaters have made their hearts
unclean (and the Sacred Masjid of Makkah is the House of Pure Monotheism.
Only those who believe in the Divine System can administer this Sacred House]
So let not the Idolaters come close to it (for administering the House) after this
year of theirs. If you fear loss of any gains, God will enrich you with His bounty.
This is the promise of God Who is Knower, Wise.QXP by DR. Shabbir
Peace
