Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers
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god1quran1
Salam,Sorry you move quickly slipping on all sides of the floor. Why not you say in simple words what is As-Salat if it is "something" in your perception; and is not a Protocol ? What is its substance-solid, liquid, or air or of black matter?
Peace Mazhar,
It is not me who is "slipping on all sides of the floor". So far you have avoided answering all of my questions. It is clear you have no answers to the questions below
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Do you agree that there is no verb "to perform" associated with the the noun Salaat? If you do not, please provide evidence on what basis you use "to perform" in your translations.
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From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.
Since you initiated this thread with a very confrontational title implying that those who do not 'perform' your version of ritualistic salaat are non-believers, the onus is on you defend the claims you are making as well as your article on Salaat. Instead of providing direct answers to the questions above, you are replying by asking me what I think Salaat means. Why don't you provide a clear response to my questions first and then we can focus on the noun Salaat?
Peace.
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I think either you do not know the difference between substance and accident or you are slippery aimlessly on the entire floor. As-Salat is not a substance while it is the direct object of verb "establish" whereby it is a Protocol which you designate by ritual.
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I think either you do not know the difference between substance and accident or you are slippery aimlessly on the entire floor. As-Salat is not a substance while it is the direct object of verb "establish" whereby it is a Protocol which you designate by ritual.
And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"
it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate. )
In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.
peace.
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And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"
it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate.
In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.
peace.
Standing in humble posture, kneeling and prostrating is the protocol; and a protocol is performed. I dont know what hampers you to grasp simple things.
Perform accomplish something to carry out an action or accomplish a task, especially one requiring care or skill
Will you please take the trouble of consulting Lane
and he performed the divinely-appointed act termed or .
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Peace Family,
Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.God bless
peace
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Peace Family,
Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.God bless
peace
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00015.%20Mustaqeem%20Qaf%20Waw%20Meem%20Straight/15.gif This Imperative; second person; plural; masculine verb is made from Verbal Noun. It is from Root " ". This Root, verbs and words made from it are used in relation to throughout the Grand Qur'aan
...
This fact alone suffices to portray that http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.
Balance and equilibrium strengths a thing and grants stability, prominence and durability. Balance and equilibrium also create a stationary state. This Root thus also conveys the meaning of staying somewhere. And the point of staying becomes a place of gathering. Balance and equilibrium yields state of peace and tranquility. In whatever shade the words derived from this Root are used the; perception of balance and equilibrium, which is the primary condition of standing erect, shall remain predominant/prevail.
The point is fully elaborated in this part
It is Gesture-speech, highest communicative dynamism Sublime submission of servitude and allegiance;
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You may wish to have a look at my post about the social purpose of rituals.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597335.msg182758#msg182758It may help linking the ritualistic aspect of the salat with its non ritualistic aspect.
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This fact alone suffices to portray that http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.
Salaamun alayka,
So If I understood you correctly Aqimu AlSalata means "Stand Praying"/ "pray in standing position".
Thus you do not bow and kneel in your prayer, am I correct?salaam,
Bender -
And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"
it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate. )
In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.
peace.
Salam god1quran1
Does the command in the following ayat 4213 "Aqeem ud deen" throw light on the verb "Aqeem" with reference to the discussion in this thread.
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Salam god1quran1
Does the command in the following ayat 4213 "Aqeem ud deen" throw light on the verb "Aqeem" with reference to the discussion in this thread.
Peace Novice.
Sure why not. The possible meanings here could be
- Establish the deen and do not be divided.
- Remain steadfast in deen and do not be divided.
What would not make any sense is
Perform the deen and do not be divided.
What I am trying to argue in this thread is that assuming there is a disagreement over the meaning of a noun, can we look at the meaning of the action verbs associated with the noun to find clues concerning its meaning.
So the exercise for the intellectually honest student of the Quran would be to make a list of verses where Salaat is mentioned along with the action verb. Then without any bias look at the meaning of each verb and see if the verse would make sense if Salaat is hypothesized to be some kind of a ritual.
As an example, in verse 1187 I have a hard time believing Salaat could be a 5 times-a-day ritual based on the action verb, for the verse does not make much sense.
When aqimus is translated as 'to establish' , I am not convinced that establishing salaat equates to praying 5 times a day as this verb can also be used with ideas. Examples would be establishing frameworks, laws, system etc.
aqimus can also mean 'to remain steadfast' which points to Salaat having a more wider meaning than just being reduced to a physical exercise.
In traditional muslim circles, notice the verbs that are used with Salaat to force it to become a ritual
- Lets 'perform' salaat
- Lets 'read' namaaz (salaat)
When asked where have these verbs been used in the Quran alongside Salaat, they have no answer! )
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Peace Family,
Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.God bless
peace
Peace Hawk99,
Lets be clear and honest
What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell.
To back up his claims he is introducing verbs that have no Quranic existence. Even a novice would know aqimus does not mean "to perform"
By a sleight of hand he has turned the noun Salaat into a ritual by manipulating the meaning of the verb.
I have asked him more than a few times how 'to establish' becomes 'to perform' in his article, but so far I have not received a satisfactory response. (
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Will you please take the trouble of consulting Lane
and he performed the divinely-appointed act termed or .
And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?
I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (
Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.
Peace
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And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?
I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (
Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.
Peace
Peace,
You have not given a thought even for a second to reflect about the difference in words of the languages that relate to substance and accident.
Anything that is performed has a performer; every act has a doer; and they are called in English Active Participles and in Arabic the doer of an act.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/107.%20Al%20Maoon/107.4.gif
As-Salat is thereby a protocol which is performed and its performer-doer-active participle is called
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Peace Hawk99,
What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell. )
Peace god1quran,
If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.
God bless
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Peace god1quran,
If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.
God bless
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif
Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.
One quality is
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif
Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif
Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.
One quality is
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif
Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?
Agreed
Peace Mazhar,
I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).Your feedback would be appreciated.
God bless
peace
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Peace Novice.
Sure why not. The possible meanings here could be
- Establish the deen and do not be divided.
- Remain steadfast in deen and do not be divided.
What would not make any sense is
Perform the deen and do not be divided.
What I am trying to argue in this thread is that assuming there is a disagreement over the meaning of a noun, can we look at the meaning of the action verbs associated with the noun to find clues concerning its meaning.
So the exercise for the intellectually honest student of the Quran would be to make a list of verses where Salaat is mentioned along with the action verb. Then without any bias look at the meaning of each verb and see if the verse would make sense if Salaat is hypothesized to be some kind of a ritual.
As an example, in verse 1187 I have a hard time believing Salaat could be a 5 times-a-day ritual based on the action verb, for the verse does not make much sense.
When aqimus is translated as 'to establish' , I am not convinced that establishing salaat equates to praying 5 times a day as this verb can also be used with ideas. Examples would be establishing frameworks, laws, system etc.
aqimus can also mean 'to remain steadfast' which points to Salaat having a more wider meaning than just being reduced to a physical exercise.
In traditional muslim circles, notice the verbs that are used with Salaat to force it to become a ritual
- Lets 'perform' salaat
- Lets 'read' namaaz (salaat)
When asked where have these verbs been used in the Quran alongside Salaat, they have no answer! )
Thanks Brother. That is exactly what I got from this ayat.
The 5 time ritual becomes invalid at the places like the polar regions or say in space. The fatwa given that follow the timings of the nearest settlements is non-Quranic and again it is not applicable in space. So my understanding at this stage is that meaning of "aqeem-ussalat" must be different than the prevalent ones.
handshake -
Agreed
Peace Mazhar,
I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).Your feedback would be appreciated.
God bless
peace
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Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
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He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.
Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.
Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.
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Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
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He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.
Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.
Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.
Peace Mazhar,
Thank you for your explanation, I agree with #2.
God bless
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